Denson interrupts Bishop's home ward testimony meeting

[JulieM]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

And apparently 'flirting' includes frank sexual talk, inappropriately touching a missionary of the opposite sex and 'much worse'.

Who are you quoting or who here stated that?  

You’re the one who posted about a sister “reaching between my legs and grabbing my genitals”.  Well let me tell you, that’s not flirting!!! You were sexually abused or assaulted, Hamba. 

Edited September 10, 2018 by JulieM

[Abulafia]

Sorry, there's no way McKenna's behaviour would have sent Elders home, whilst she remained...and all of this appears to be implying she *deserved* what Bishop did to her. She didn't.  

 

Please, please let this not descend into..we'll imagine the worst of Denson and the best of Bishop!

 

[provoman]

14 hours ago, Calm said:

I listened to the first 10 minutes or so.

The "you know this is being recorded" came at the beginning when she is being removed from the pulpit before she made a point of powering down her phone in their sight in the office or wherever they met and saying her friend was not recording it.

The sound of her voice is so consistent from the beginning of her testimony, all through the post discussion, with no wavering as she might shift her head from side to side, my opinion is she was wired with a mic.  Given Norton's clandestine recordings of the temple, what would be far fetched for anyone else, seems probable with him involved.  

Everyone else sounded farther away and faded in and out of range.  When the SP counselor was standing right next to her on the stand, it was very clear...so a device that was near or on her and there was no shift in the editing that I noticed that indicated it might have shifted to a different device that was on her friend.

At 3:20 she asks for permission to record, it is refused and she agrees there will be no recording.  Also says of her friend "He's not recording" at 3:38.  They ask to see phones shut off and Denson at least agrees and says at 3:50 they are willing to put their phones in the hallway (she says "we" a few times, but maybe it's royal we, but I am interpreting it as talking for them both at that point).  At 3:55, she says "off off" meaning completely powering down her phone.  Since there is not a hiccup in sound quality during this past minute, it is obviously another device, not the two phones she and her friend showed the counselor and his friend.

Which means when she said she was powering down her phone, was willing to put her phone out in the hallway even, was not going to be recording, she was lying through her teeth (the other option is someone bugged her without her knowledge....yeah, not in the realm of possibility imo) and imo, trying to be so convincing that nothing would be recorded in hopes she could make them relax and open up about details about Bishop's treatment by leaders given the questions that immediately follow about whether he resigned, etc.

Which makes the Church instruction to all of the leaders she might contact to not speak to her about the lawsuit or anything connected with quite understandable to me.

Ethan krok is the person with her in the room/meeting.

Ethan Krok is a film maker and is collecting footage for a documentary - he is also, in my opinion a provacator, he was at Sam's excommunication; Denson, Krok and a 3rd person set out to create a scene and get footage, the footage was having a woman confront the SP, when they are stopped at the doors, emEthan can be heard making ignorant comments like 'It says visitors welcome' and other comments, he appears to trying to get a reaction from the people regulating the enterance - anyways.

Ethan has what I will call a "sound guy". This person - Kim or Tim - can bee seen attaching a microphone to Sam - one of those lapel mics. The mic was on Sam's left lapel and the main body was place in Sam left jacket inside pocket - nothing suspicious about this (as the mic cannot be seen on Sam's lapel when he enters the Church). However, after Kim or Tim, attaches the lapel mic he returns and places a black palm sized object deep inside Sam right inside pocket. 

Anyway, what is the point with all this, Denson and Ethan Krok where in the meeting together - they saw an opurrtunity for footage. The audio on Denson is so clear and crisp, that I suspect the mic was on her person.

Edited September 10, 2018 by provoman

[ALarson]

3 minutes ago, provoman said:

Ethan krok is the person with her in the room/meeting.

Ethan Krok is a film maker and is collecting footage for a documentary

Thanks for identifying him.  I wondered who he was....

Is the documentary, "The Hushed Ones"?

I agree it was most likely him or maybe Denson who continued recording and it was probably a better recording device than just a cellphone. 

[Prof]

11 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

 

Please, please let this not descend into..we'll imagine the worst of Denson and the best of Bishop!

 

At this point, I am tending to think the worst of both of them.

[provoman]

23 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Thanks for identifying him.  I wondered who he was....

Is the documentary, "The Hushed Ones"?

I agree it was most likely him or maybe Denson who continued recording and it was probably a better recording device than just a cellphone. 

I am not sure of the documentary name.

[bluebell]

13 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I can understand that. But do you still think that after reading Hamba’s experience. 

What?  I'm not sure what you are asking.

I meant that I found the tale more believable having come from a guy because, in my experience, woman are more likely to act like the morality police to other women, and also, a sister missionary is more likely to tell another sister missionary to stay away from an elder than an elder telling a sister to stay away from another elder.

[Abulafia]

2 hours ago, Prof said:

At this point, I am tending to think the worst of both of them.

And that view in no way  recognises the power differential between McKenna and the MTC president.  

 

I shouldn't even need to spell it out, but Bishop was a middle aged man, with power and authority that McKenna in no way had.  

[smac97]

1 hour ago, Abulafia said:

And that view in no way  recognises the power differential between McKenna and the MTC president.  

I recognize that differential.  I recognize the strong likelihood that Ms. Denson was abused in some way by Joseph Bishop.

Quote

I shouldn't even need to spell it out, but Bishop was a middle aged man, with power and authority that McKenna in no way had.  

The more we learn about Ms. Bishop, the more problematic her narrative becomes.  She wouldn't be the first victim to become a victimizer of others (I'm thinking here of the other missionaries, not Joseph Bishop).

She seems to be profoundly untrustworthy.  Her credibility was previously very poor, and it appears to be getting worse as time goes on.

-Smac

Edited September 10, 2018 by smac97

[Calm]

Quote

think that possibly the other man that was with her (I don't know who he is, do you?) afterwards was probably the one who continued taping after phones were turned off. 

You can hardly hear him at times while Denson comes in quite clear and there is little difference in quality over time and no sense of muffling, so whatever the device was, I suspect some sort of mic near her head.  The man is sounds from New Zealand or Australia and first name is definitely Ethan (don't know if spelled correctly) and last name iirc Chuck.  Iirc he is a filmmaker, reported somewhere been reading several different places including news reports.

add-on:  see this is answered and correct spelling given  

Denson claims at least two documentaries being done.

Looks like Kruk may have a Mormon background as his first project was Mormon related:

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5554038/?ref_=nm_flmg_cin_3

On instagram he posts "How to make an anti-Mormon movie!"

Edited September 10, 2018 by Calm

[Calm]

42 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

And that view in no way  recognises the power differential between McKenna and the MTC president.  

The "worst of both of them" does not ignore the possibility Bishop was a rapist, so I don't see why that view can't recognize it.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Abulafia said:

Sorry, there's no way McKenna's behaviour would have sent Elders home, whilst she remained...

 

The poster stated he couldn't independently confirm this.  The info was imo provided more to show Denson was well known among the Elders.

Whatever Denson did, my opinion of Bishop is based on how he talked about his wives, his treatment of the sister missionary he took into his home, and his police report.  Always was.  Since Denson was always approaching him in the recording from her POV, providing details rather than letting them come from him, I found it wiser to ignore her comments about him just as I ignore Greg Bishop's comments about her in terms of making judgments of behaviour.

I was ignoring this poster's comments before even though I thought it strange he was able to guess her name, but after reading a couple of dozen other topic posts and finding him to be a very compassionate, thoughtful, moderate, and informed poster who habitually backs up his claims with studies, I am not dismissing him as someone typically putting up unfounded claims or obsessive about modesty, etc. (one post was how many couples are troubled by porn while many have no problems with it, for example).  He definitely is not that.  Doesn't seem to be the type to hold a grudge or get angry easily either, though not saying he isn't approaching it from a personal standpoint.

His comments for me are not about justifying Bishop's behaviour at all, it is solely about her credibility, the image she has been creating for herself.  It does not change my mind about Bishop.  What might change my mind would be a demonstration that dementia altered how he views women/his wives...but Bishop shared details that Denson appeared to already know about his first marriage that wasn't just each picking up on what the other said as far as I could tell, but memories of a previous discussion, so his 'wife was to blame' seems likely a long term view.

Edited September 10, 2018 by Calm

[Scott Lloyd]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

What?  I'm not sure what you are asking.

I meant that I found the tale more believable having come from a guy because, in my experience, woman are more likely to act like the morality police to other women, and also, a sister missionary is more likely to tell another sister missionary to stay away from an elder than an elder telling a sister to stay away from another elder.

OK. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

8 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

 

The person whom Calm referenced discussed inappropriately touching Elders, aggressively 'pursuing' them, and speaking openly about sexual topics.  In one of his posts, he wrote, 'But I have deliberately not shared further knowledge that is much worse. I don't think it takes much imagination for people (especially church members and missionaries) to conclude what much worse might include'.

Now none of us knows if these accusations are accurate or not, but they obviously hit a nerve since immediately Abulafia assured us that Ms Denson 'was a really,  really pretty girl as a missionary. Stunning in fact. Did she *prey* on innocent missionaries? Nah. Do missionaries flirt with each other? Yep!' (Though only with the really, really pretty ones??? Poor Elders couldn't help themselves, apparently ...)

I.e., there's nothing to see her. It was just flirting. And we all know that missionaries flirt with each other ... even when they don't. And apparently 'flirting' includes frank sexual talk, inappropriately touching a missionary of the opposite sex and 'much worse'. This is precisely pooh-poohing and seeking to dismiss these claims by relabelling them as merely flirting (which, as Scott has pointed out repeatedly despite open mockery, is not actually what missionaries are supposed to do).

And then Abulafia feels the need to dismiss and deprivilege my experiences in her post above by recasting them as intended to 'serve the narrative of the time that missions were a male domain, and sisters were a distraction'.

So much spin has left me feeling dizzy and physically sick again. 

Thanks for this, Hamba. I'm glad someone here gets it.

Missionary service is not a proper environment for anything of a sexual nature, including supposedly mild flirting. If I were a mission president and I learned that one of the missionaries was engaging in it, I would promptly bring him or her in for some questioning and, if need be, chastening. And if he or she manifested any attitude of rebellion or refusal to correct the behavior, I would seriously consider sending him or her home.

And I would hope any man presiding over a mission where my son or daughter serves would have that sort of no-tolerance policy.

Edited September 10, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[ALarson]

30 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Thanks for this, Hamba. I'm glad someone here gets it.

Missionary service is not a proper environment for anything of a sexual nature, including supposedly mild flirting. If I were a mission president and I learned that one of the missionaries was engaging in it, I would promptly bring him or her in for some questioning and, if need be, chastening. And if he or she manifested any attitude of rebellion or refusal to correct the behavior, I would seriously consider sending him or her home.

And I would hope any man presiding over a mission where my son or daughter serves would have that sort of no-tolerance policy.

What Hamba described is very different than what was being discussed, Scott, and I'm amazed you can't see that

What happened to him was sexual abuse or assault (he was actually sexually accosted and groped) and if what he describes is accurate  regarding what else was going on in his mission, the leaders of that mission handled it horribly, IMO.  After Hamba reported it, he was just told to avoid the sister missionaries, not to talk to them and called the sisters "evil"?  They should have been called in immediately and it sounds like at least some of them should have been sent home.  I think it's disgraceful how it was handled by the leaders: Demeaning and belittling all the sister missionaries because of a few?

From Hamba:

Quote

 

That evening, I told my trainer what had happened. His response was not what I'd expected: 'Yeah, you've got to watch out for the Sisters. Pretty much all of the Elders just try to avoid them. Don't talk to them unless you absolutely have to, and try not to be physically near them. Never turn your back to one'.

I pointed out that I hadn't intentionally put myself near this Sister; she had apparently walked up behind me. He just shrugged his shoulders and said, 'Look, that's why we all prefer to serve in all-Elder districts'.

I did everything in my power from that point forward to have zero interaction with the Sisters in our district, and thankfully there were no repeats.

.....

So I was hesitant to bring anything up with him regarding Sisters, but on a long drive back from a zone conference one day, I got brave and asked, 'President, is it just me, or were the Sisters who were here during the first half of my mission a bit ... ' I didn't know how to finish that question in a way that wouldn't offend him.

He completed it for me: 'Evil, Elder? 

 

 

Edited September 10, 2018 by ALarson

[Scott Lloyd]

33 minutes ago, ALarson said:

What Hamba described is very different than what was being discussed, Scott, and I'm amazed you can't see that

What happened to him was sexual abuse or assault (he was actually sexually accosted and groped) and if what he describes is accurate  regarding what else was going on in his mission, the leaders of that mission handled it horribly, IMO.  After Hamba reported it, he was just told to avoid the sister missionaries, not to talk to them and called the sisters "evil"?  They should have been called in immediately and it sounds like at least some of them should have been sent home.  I think it's disgraceful how it was handled by the leaders: Demeaning and belittling all the sister missionaries because of a few?

From Hamba:

 

What you seem to be advocating, the dismissal or ignoring of flirtation by missionaries as "innocent," would be a horrible way of handling such a situation as well.

I get that what happened to Hamba was abuse and assault, but suppose what had happened had been consensual, or suppose the other things he described were consensual. Would you have been inclined to dismiss them as "innocent" flirting or the norm for young missionaries in the Church?

Edited September 10, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[ALarson]

15 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

What you seem to be advocating, the dismissal or ignoring of flirtation by missionaries as "innocent," would be a horrible way of handling such a situation as well.

So you equate innocent attention or mild flirtations as being the same severity as when someone reaches between your legs from behind and grabs your genitals?  Interesting.... 

Same punishment should apply?  Seriously?

All anyone was stating is that it is normal for young men and young women to still notice when they find someone attractive even when they are missionaries.  There are many who come home and date or get married who did nothing inappropriate on their missions (no groping or sexual assault or abuse as was done to Hamba.....heck, not even any physical contact other than shaking hands), but I'm sure they knew they were interested in each other.  So comparing the two behaviors is wrong, IMO. 

One is very normal and one is criminal.

The leaders of Hamba's mission handled the abuse horribly, IMO (if his description is accurate regarding what they stated and did after he reported it).  What they stated was horribly demeaning and insulting to all the sister missionaries who were serving in that mission.

Scott, do you agree with how his leaders handled it?

Edited September 10, 2018 by ALarson

[Scott Lloyd]

11 minutes ago, ALarson said:

So you equate innocent attention or mild flirtations as being the same severity as when someone reaches between your legs from behind and grabs your genitals?  Interesting.... 

Not the same severity, no, but if there is an undertone of sexuality (which, by definition, there would be with flirtation) then it would not be innocent for missionaries, and it would not be acceptable or tolerable.

If what you have in mind is merely "banter" with no sexual context, or merely unexpressed feelings of attraction, then don't call it flirtation.

 

Quote

Scott, do you agree with how his leaders handled it?

I wasn't there, and I don't think it's my place to judge. For the mission president to take action, he would need some pretty substantive evidence, and that may have been difficult to come by.

Edited September 10, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[ALarson]

5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I wasn't there, and I don't think it's my place to judge. For the mission president to take action, he would need some pretty substantive evidence, and that may have been difficult to come by.

But he knew enough to call the sister missionaries "evil"?  Ok  

If what Hamba describes is accurate, the leaders handled this situation horribly, IMO, and they were demeaning to all the sister missionaries in that mission. 

[JulieM]

13 minutes ago, ALarson said:

But he knew enough to call the sister missionaries "evil"?  Ok  

If what Hamba describes is accurate, the leaders handled this situation horribly, IMO, and they were demeaning to all the sister missionaries in that mission. 

Yeah, they shouldn’t have all been lumped together.  I’m sure there were many sisters serving who were righteous, faithful, and devoted missionaries,  but the elders were told to avoid them all, to “watch out for the sisters” and “never turn your back to one”?  That was very wrong to do to all of them (the elders and the sisters).

Hamba, were the sisters sent home who abused you?  (If you feel you can answer.)

Edited September 10, 2018 by JulieM

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Not the same severity, no, but if there is an undertone of sexuality (which, by definition, there would be with flirtation) then it would not be innocent for missionaries, and it would not be acceptable or tolerable.

If what you have in mind is merely "banter" with no sexual context, or merely unexpressed feelings of attraction, then don't call it flirtation.

 

I wasn't there, and I don't think it's my place to judge. For the mission president to take action, he would need some pretty substantive evidence, and that may have been difficult to come by.

I am curious if you hold the same standard for other missionary 'shenanigans'.  For example, I have no doubt you believe knocking heads off of Catholic Saints at shrines is highly inappropriate.  But would you see making up songs making relatively mild fun of Catholic beliefs to pass time as inappropriate, zero tolerance as well?  ( I draw both examples from real life, the first has been reported in the news, the second I heard in a podcast as a performer was taking a walk down memory lane after someone mentioned his storytelling somewhere as anticatholic and inappropriate).  (serious question, interested in how you approach such things).

Edited September 11, 2018 by Calm

[Hamba Tuhan]

10 hours ago, ALarson said:

We have one anonymous poster inferring that Denson was flirtatious and forward with at least one Elder in the MTC.  We do not know what that means or what she did or if she did anything.

And there you go again. The 'one anonymous poster' did not infer [sic] that Ms Denson was flirtatious. Instead, he stated openly that she engaged in frank sexual talk with other missionaries, 'pursued' Elders, inappropriately touched Elders (plural), including one in his district whom he attempted to protect by calling her out on it, and then went on to do 'much worse'. As I noted before, none of us knows if these statements are accurate, but your need to spin them as 'Denson was flirtatious' reeks of a need to protect the purity of your chosen martyr. I genuinely thought we'd reached a consensus that 'warts and all' are better than whitewashing a person's past for multiple reasons. Apparently not ...

Quote

But even if she did something as "evil" as the sister did to you, are you claiming that Denson deserved to be taken down into the basement by the MTC president, into his secret room, and sexually abused or possibly raped?  

Seriously? It takes an awful lot to offend me, but you've managed to do so. Well done. I didn't realise that being interested in the complete, messy truth was the same thing as defending bad behaviour. Can you produce a single sentence or phrase that I have ever written on this topic wherein I have said that someone, anyone, deserved to be abused?

My single purpose has been to point out the ridiculousness of trying to dismiss accusations of bad behaviour as mere 'flirting', which you and Abulafia have attempted to do repeatedly. It's shameful.

[ALarson]

5 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

And there you go again. The 'one anonymous poster' did not infer [sic] that Ms Denson was flirtatious. Instead, he stated openly that she engaged in frank sexual talk with other missionaries, 'pursued' Elders, inappropriately touched Elders (plural), including one in his district whom he attempted to protect by calling her out on it, and then went on to do 'much worse'. As I noted before, none of us knows if these statements are accurate, but your need to spin them as 'Denson was flirtatious' reeks of a need to protect the purity of your chosen martyr. I genuinely thought we'd reached a consensus that 'warts and all' are better than whitewashing a person's past for multiple reasons. Apparently not ...

Well, you've followed up more on this than I have.  I was only posting from what I'd read so far.  Either way, it is all coming from ONE anonymous source on another discussion board.  Maybe more will come out if there's a trial, but I'll reserve judgement for now.  I think Denson is doing enough character damage with her own behavior recently, so I'll wait to learn more about this anonymous accusation.

Either way, that's really not connected to what Bishop is accused of doing to her, IMO.

I'd like to say that I am very sorry about what you endured on your mission, Hamba.  No one should be sexually assaulted like you were and I feel it was handled poorly.

Edited September 11, 2018 by ALarson

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 hours ago, ALarson said:

The leaders of Hamba's mission handled the abuse horribly, IMO.

And here you once again try to pin the attitude of my trainer (just another 20-year-old missionary) and many of the other Elders in my mission on supposed 'leaders'. I never told the mission president (who was new himself) what happened to me. I doubt most of the Elders ever did. I know the mission president had been told about the bear-skin rug photo, and obviously he'd got the phone call from the commander of the army post. I have no idea what else he knew or how long it took him to figure it all out.

But we Elders just viewed this bad behaviour as over-the-top 'flirting', sought to avoid it, and went to work. In my case, in hindsight I think my attitude was very much shaped by the reaction of my trainer and the attitudes of the other missionaries around me. I'm sorry that upsets you so much. I think it's a pretty common reaction.

Edited September 11, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Well, you've followed up more on this than I have.  I was only posting from what I'd read so far.  Either way, it is all coming from ONE anonymous source on another discussion board.  Maybe more will come out if there's a trial, but I'll reserve judgement for now.  I think Denson is doing enough character damage with her own behavior recently, so I'll wait to learn more about this anonymous accusation.

Either way, that's really not connected to what Bishop is accused of doing to her, IMO.

I'd like to say that I am very sorry about what you endured on your mission, Hamba.  No one should be sexually assaulted like you were and I feel it was handled poorly.

I was under the impression that he wasn't anonymous, but I could be wrong on that.