Denson interrupts Bishop's home ward testimony meeting

[Tacenda]

Give me a break Calm, he's fine. Maybe some old age memory problems. But that's it, IMO.

Edited September 14, 2018 by Tacenda

[Rain]

1 hour ago, Abulafia said:

My opinion, but having Joseph Bishop sit there never having faced ecclesiastical or legal ramifications for his behaviour violates the sanctity of the meeting far more.  

Are you saying that fast and testimony meetings should be on par with the temple now? Only those found worthy should attend? 

Edited September 14, 2018 by Rain

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, Abulafia said:

My opinion, but having Joseph Bishop sit there never having faced ecclesiastical or legal ramifications for his behaviour violates the sanctity of the meeting far more.  

No doubt your opinion is sincerely held, but with all due respect, you don't get to make this decision on behalf of the ward members in question.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Give me a break Calm, he's fine. Maybe some old age memory problems. But that's it, IMO.

Stress can cause drastic changes in the elderly.  Just the move for my mom has resulted in her losing the ability to remember half her conversations...aides have been coming to her to do things and she tells them no and then complains to me no one has come in to do the work.  I canceled a trip to the store with her by her choice and two hours later she is asking me why we aren't going.  The guy at the assisted living place said it is very common for those for whom the move is stressful enough to cause problems to never recover and have to be moved into the memory assisted section.  I am getting this in my face every day and that conversation he had with Denson sounds identical in tone and strength to some I have with Mom recently and she sounds perfectly rational and with it unless we compare conversations (she agrees with everything I or sisterinlaw say and plan and even protests she loves it when I push to see if she is just being accommodating and then later tells others she hates what we have done, but not to tell us; when I confront her on things her voice drops, tone gets flat and she just says "yes" or repeats what .I have said with little change to show she is sorry and won't do it again, she is telling a story in detail about being trapped in an elevator when younger...something she has never said nor expressed fear over before so we are pretty sure it is a complete fabrication, she is telling me she is exercising or doing other stuff .I know she isn't doing).

Just because you think he is a jerk doesn't mean he can't suffer from issues we feel sorry to see in nice people.

Edited September 14, 2018 by Calm

[Hamba Tuhan]

32 minutes ago, Rain said:

Are you saying that fast and testimony meetings should be on par with the temple now? Only those found worthy should attend? 

Yep, let's toss both the impure and the presumed impure out of our synagogues and congregations. 

[Bentley]

On ‎9‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 4:37 AM, Calm said:

You can hardly hear him at times while Denson comes in quite clear and there is little difference in quality over time and no sense of muffling, so whatever the device was, I suspect some sort of mic near her head.  The man is sounds from New Zealand or Australia and first name is definitely Ethan (don't know if spelled correctly) and last name iirc Chuck.  Iirc he is a filmmaker, reported somewhere been reading several different places including news reports.

add-on:  see this is answered and correct spelling given  

Denson claims at least two documentaries being done.

Looks like Kruk may have a Mormon background as his first project was Mormon related:

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5554038/?ref_=nm_flmg_cin_3

On instagram he posts "How to make an anti-Mormon movie!"

Fancy more of his creations

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWNojPrVt2o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSucq1E73TI&t=9s

[Hamba Tuhan]

28 minutes ago, Bentley said:

Fancy more of his creations

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWNojPrVt2o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSucq1E73TI&t=9s

I found the acting a bit thin, but the plots in each one are riveting.

I note that he posted on Facebook a photo of himself and Ms Denson and some others outside a chapel at the first of the month with the following caption: 'Such an amazing experience at church today with these peeps!' It looks like he's been spending some time with Sam Young as well. By the way, the accent is Australian.

E☺️

Edited September 14, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[Abulafia]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

Are you saying that fast and testimony meetings should be on par with the temple now? Only those found worthy should attend? 

No. I'm offering a riposte to Scott's assertion that McKenna violated the sanctity of the meeting.

Look, I have been to enough testimony meetings to know that they are more often than not, repetitive,  formulaic, and sometimes utterly miserable as the same people month after month, bear testimony of the minute details of their lives. 

As a missionary, it wasn't  a meeting that I would have wanted investigators to experience first. Some highly wacky stuff can be said in what is an *open mic* session.

 

 

[Abulafia]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Yep, let's toss both the impure and the presumed impure out of our synagogues and congregations. 

With a known sexual predator or a child abuser who has never had to face the legal ramifications of their crimes, I would certainly be keeping a close eye.

Wouldn't you?

[Abulafia]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Yep, let's toss both the impure and the presumed impure out of our synagogues and congregations. 

And that's just what the church is doing to Sam Young, right?

Edited September 14, 2018 by Abulafia

[Scott Lloyd]

20 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

And that's just what the church is doing to Sam Young, right?

Even an excommunicated person is admitted to our worship services so long as he/she observes proper decorum. I dare say that whatever happens to Sam Young, that would apply to him as well. 

Edited September 14, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

21 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

No. I'm offering a riposte to Scott's assertion that McKenna violated the sanctity of the meeting.

Look, I have been to enough testimony meetings to know that they are more often than not, repetitive,  formulaic, and sometimes utterly miserable as the same people month after month, bear testimony of the minute details of their lives. 

As a missionary, it wasn't  a meeting that I would have wanted investigators to experience first. Some highly wacky stuff can be said in what is an *open mic* session.

 

 

This “open mic” schtick, never all that clever to begin with, is wearing really thin by now. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, Abulafia said:

Look, I have been to enough testimony meetings to know that they are more often than not, repetitive,  formulaic, and sometimes utterly miserable as the same people month after month, bear testimony of the minute details of their lives. 

Testimony meetings in my ward are without question our most sacred meetings. That you would attempt to defend someone who intentionally hijacked such a meeting for self-serving purposes based on the fact that you don't really like them speaks volumes. You simply don't get to decide for us whether our meetings get to be sabotaged or not based on your personal preferences.

Quote

As a missionary, it wasn't  a meeting that I would have wanted investigators to experience first.

As a missionary, it was absolutely the meeting I preferred people to experience first. One of the the men whom I taught, an investment banker, was floored by what he experienced in his first testimony meeting. Before the service, he'd politely declined the lessons. Afterwards, he agreed to them.

But it wouldn't matter either way. You don't get to decide that asinine antics in another faith community's worship service shouldn't really offend them for your own reasons.

Edited September 14, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[Hamba Tuhan]

21 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

With a known sexual predator or a child abuser who has never had to face the legal ramifications of their crimes, I would certainly be keeping a close eye.

Wouldn't you?

And that, of course, is precisely why Ms Denson went to the front of the congregation, right? So that she could do a better job of keeping her eye on the man whom she's accused?

[Hamba Tuhan]

38 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

And that's just what the church is doing to Sam Young, right?

 

21 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Even an excommunicated person is admitted to our worship services so long as he/she observes proper decorum. 

Bingo!

And that's even after the person has actually been found guilty of a crime. We Saints sometimes even eat and drink with known publicans ...

Edited September 14, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[Abulafia]

18 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

Abulafia, 

I may be out of place and this may have been addressed. I've stayed out of this thread largely for the same reason you've kept tabs. My gut says, somethings missing each time I read. I don't doubt that Bishop likely did things. I don't even fully doubt that the church may have mishandled thing (the timeframe suggests it was very likely....we have problem with litigation and society in general now, let alone 30 years ago). But I know enough about these type of cases to sense that I don't have enough information and I'm not one to extrapolate from something incomplete what should or shouldn't be done to remedy the situation. 

But from what little I have read, including the quotes you mentioned, I don't know if there really is enough information to insist that the church knew he was a sexual predator. I've worked with a few people who've sexually assaulted or raped someone. I've also worked with sexual addicts before. Getting a solid answer/confession from them is not easy and they often go back on what they say or close it off again when placed in more vulnerable moments or situations that could "hurt" them in someway (such as an ecclesiastical confession or talking to their wives). From the same quotes that you're extrapolating the church knew, I'm extrapolating the church leaders didn't. People who are perpetual liars do not know how to tell the truth....they often don't even know when they're lying to themselves. On top of that, seeing what happens when I tell someone what they did was sexual assault....accepting who they were is extremely difficult. They don't know how to incorporate this truth into their being. If the bishop or leader isn't trained to recognize signs or they're only hearing their side of the concern (which is common)....they're likely not to realize the gravity of what this person is saying.

But like I said, I don't have enough information to judge one way or another. I don't have all the files, I don't have the perspectives of the other leaders involved. I don't feel comfortable saying anything specific about this case and what it means for the church.  

 

My 2 cents

With luv,

BD  

BlueDreams, thanks so much for this. I respect your position.  

One thought that I noticed in re-reading the transcript, Bishop does note that he compartmentalized his past *sins/crimes*.  He remembered when an unnamed victim approached the church.

 

But he does say this.

 

"Did you molest her?" 

"Yes."

He also admits Denson isn't  the only one.

"Okay, I know this point is well taken. I want to know how many. I want to know that I am not the only one,. I want to know that I am not the only one."

"You are not the only one."

 

Definition of molest.

 

 From the Cambridge Dictionary 

 

 

molest verb [ T ] (ATTACK SEXUALLY)

"to touch or attack someone in a sexual way against their wishes:

The girl had been molested frequently by her stepfather from the age of eight.

The man had previously been arrested several times  for molesting young boys."

 

Bishop is not stupid imho.  Those were measured words.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

molest verb [ T ] (ATTACK SEXUALLY)to touch or attack someone in a sexualway against their wishes:

 

 

 

[Abulafia]

Here's the comment where he admits compartmentalizing..

Joseph Bishop: "I guess it's tucked away. Maybe  it'll come  out like  it did with the  sister missionaries for me  in the  right environment. "

That makes a lot of sense. Imho.

Edited September 14, 2018 by Abulafia

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Abulafia said:

BlueDreams, thanks so much for this. I respect your position.  

One thought that I noticed in re-reading the transcript, Bishop does note that he compartmentalized his past *sins/crimes*.  He remembered when an unnamed victim approached the church.

  

But he does say this.

 

"Did you molest her?" 

"Yes."

He also admits Denson isn't  the only one.

"Okay, I know this point is well taken. I want to know how many. I want to know that I am not the only one,. I want to know that I am not the only one."

"You are not the only one."

 

Definition of molest.

 

 From the Cambridge Dictionary 

molest verb [ T ] (ATTACK SEXUALLY)

"to touch or attack someone in a sexual way against their wishes:

The girl had been molested frequently by her stepfather from the age of eight.

The man had previously been arrested several times  for molesting young boys."

 

Bishop is not stupid imho.  Those were measured words.

.

molest verb [ T ] (ATTACK SEXUALLY)to touch or attack someone in a sexualway against their wishes:

Those are passive words, not measured ones, imo.  Tone is flat.

 

He could be totally with it...except he was making the most insane connections between her claiming to have a gun and her therefore having biker friends, going to an enhancement because for some strange reason he felt he needed to understand why she didn't look like she once did, he goes into these rambling stories about how he was meant to end up there as if it was the only thing that would save his life when it sounds like a simple procedure ( 3 days after surgery he is allowed to travel and have an interview?).....so imo there is a high chance he is suffering from dementia and/or drug impairment  causing him to agree with things to avoid confrontation, to simply repeat what the person has said.

 

When someone is completely passive in part of a conversation, I never trust what they say to be their true feelings, true ideas.  Especially if the person is swearing and yelling at them.  Good reason to be afraid and agreeable so she will go away as soon as she gets what she wants.

 

Other parts of the conversation he woke up, he initiated the details and did not just repeat it.  I tend to trust those kinds of conversations more

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Abulafia said:

Here's the comment where he admits compartmentalizing..

Joseph Bishop: "I guess it's tucked away. Maybe  it'll come  out like  it did with the  sister missionaries for me  in the  right environment. "

That makes a lot of sense. Imho.

Repressed memories is not compartmentalizing.  He was referring to the sisters who had come to him for counseling because something had triggered alleged repressed memories (I say alleged because there is debate on if actual memories in many cases from what I recal).

 Compartmentalizing is separating the parts of your life, trying to keep them from interesecting....so a surgeon might shut off his compassion while working because knowing one is causing extreme pain could cripple his ability to work and at home he shuts off his work mode because loved ones can get annoyed if analyzed, dissected, or instructed day after day.  Sometimes that ends up shutting down part of you completely because it can be hard to stop suppressing once you start, especially if it helps avoid cognitive dissonance.

Edited September 14, 2018 by Calm

[why me]

3 hours ago, Abulafia said:

No. I'm offering a riposte to Scott's assertion that McKenna violated the sanctity of the meeting.

Look, I have been to enough testimony meetings to know that they are more often than not, repetitive,  formulaic, and sometimes utterly miserable as the same people month after month, bear testimony of the minute details of their lives. 

As a missionary, it wasn't  a meeting that I would have wanted investigators to experience first. Some highly wacky stuff can be said in what is an *open mic* session.

 

 

When was the last time you attended a fast and testimony meeting on a regular basis? Of course, people can have something to say because they have no one else to tell it to and so they do it publically at such meetings. It is just part of the experience. Most of us are leading desparate lives, trying to survive the daily routines and experiences of life. What to do? People can be just ordinary like everyone else.

Edited September 14, 2018 by why me

[smac97]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Those are passive words, not measured ones, imo.  Tone is flat.

 

He could be totally with it...except he was making the most insane connections between her claiming to have a gun and her therefore having biker friends, going to an enhancement because for some strange reason he felt he needed to understand why she didn't look like she once did, he goes into these rambling stories about how he was meant to end up there as if it was the only thing that would save his life when it sounds like a simple procedure ( 3 days after surgery he is allowed to travel and have an interview?).....so imo there is a high chance he is suffering from dementia and/or drug impairment  causing him to agree with things to avoid confrontation, to simply repeat what the person has said.

 

When someone is completely passive in part of a conversation, I never trust what they say to be their true feelings, true ideas.  Especially if the person is swearing and yelling at them.  Good reason to be afraid and agreeable so she will go away as soon as she gets what she wants.

 

Other parts of the conversation he woke up, he initiated the details and did not just repeat it.  I tend to trust those kinds of conversations more

Most of Bishop's supposed "confession"-type remarks were given in response to loaded and/or leading questions.

Taken together (particularly the coming forward of the second victim), it seems clear that Joseph Bishop engaged in serious misconduct against Ms. Denson.  Whether that misconduct extended to forcible rape, however, is a very different question.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited September 14, 2018 by smac97

[Tacenda]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

Stress can cause drastic changes in the elderly.  Just the move for my mom has resulted in her losing the ability to remember half her conversations...aides have been coming to her to do things and she tells them no and then complains to me no one has come in to do the work.  I canceled a trip to the store with her by her choice and two hours later she is asking me why we aren't going.  The guy at the assisted living place said it is very common for those for whom the move is stressful enough to cause problems to never recover and have to be moved into the memory assisted section.  I am getting this in my face every day and that conversation he had with Denson sounds identical in tone and strength to some I have with Mom recently and she sounds perfectly rational and with it unless we compare conversations (she agrees with everything I or sisterinlaw say and plan and even protests she loves it when I push to see if she is just being accommodating and then later tells others she hates what we have done, but not to tell us; when I confront her on things her voice drops, tone gets flat and she just says "yes" or repeats what .I have said with little change to show she is sorry and won't do it again, she is telling a story in detail about being trapped in an elevator when younger...something she has never said nor expressed fear over before so we are pretty sure it is a complete fabrication, she is telling me she is exercising or doing other stuff .I know she isn't doing).

Just because you think he is a jerk doesn't mean he can't suffer from issues we feel sorry to see in nice people.

Calm, I guess it's possible that he agreed to doing something he didn't do because of dementia. I guess I shouldn't compare my mother to him. I just know she couldn't have carried a conversation like Bishop did with Denson. But maybe that's because if he has it, it wasn't as progressed.

Take care, and good luck with your mother, it's absolutely the worst thing to go through. 

[Tacenda]

I don't approve of the tactics that McKenna used. But if what she says is true, I hope the church will take notice of the lack of reporting and come clean, admit, and go forth and change. That would be the stand up thing to do, and would give me faith in the church's goodness. But for now, I'm not impressed. I like openness more than I ever had. And admitting wrongs. 

[provoman]

9 hours ago, Abulafia said:

My opinion, but having Joseph Bishop sit there never having faced ecclesiastical or legal ramifications for his behaviour violates the sanctity of the meeting far more.  

Based on what we know, why has he never faced legal ramifications? Because Denson waited either 26 years before telling the police what happened or 33 years before telling the police. 

Based on what is available - the audio and transcript - when confronted about Denson's claim by Church Leaders he denied it.

[smac97]

10 hours ago, Abulafia said:

My opinion, but having Joseph Bishop sit there never having faced ecclesiastical or legal ramifications for his behaviour violates the sanctity of the meeting far more.  

So it is your place to decide which sinners get to attend the meetings of the Church?

I think . . . not.

"And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick."  (Luke 5:31).

Joseph Bishop sitting in the pews is exactly where he needs to be.

McKenna Denson could also appropriately have been there, except she went there to disrupt and accuse.

Thanks,

-Smac