Denson interrupts Bishop's home ward testimony meeting

[ksfisher]

3 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

The Church gets sued because it has a duty of care.

What does this mean?  Lots of people have a duty to care.  As a religious society we believe that we should care for all.

 

5 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

To reduce victims to moneygrabbers is awful.

In the example I used I said an insurance company was suing.  I said nothing about victims.

[Abulafia]

9 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

What does this mean?  Lots of people have a duty to care.  As a religious society we believe that we should care for all.

 

In the example I used I said an insurance company was suing.  I said nothing about victims.

"

duty of care

noun

BRITISH

1. a moral or legal obligation to ensure the safety or well-being of others.

   "employers have a duty of care to their employees"

[Abulafia]

22 hours ago, rpn said:

1.You are suggesting that one has to give up his (God established) constitutional rights in order to repent.    I do not think that to be correct at all.   (And I had occasion several years ago to ask priesthood leaders the same and up the chain agreed one did not.)    Of course doing what one DOES have to do --- confession and restitution  ----- does create evidence that could result in a conviction.  And repentance might well require a guilty plea to a crime that one did commit or an agreement that the victim doesn't have to testify so as to not harm the victim further by taking up their time or making them relive something.    But repentance does not require confession to the police or waiver of any other constitutional right.

I'm finding your arguments utterly perplexing. I've read them again and again.  I'm not an American. Which particular constitutional right are you talking about? Are they universal rights or just American?

A child abuser goes to his bishop and confesses to horrendous child abuse. Despicable acts. The most serious thing that Bishop can do within priest/penitent privilege is excommunicate him. But the bishop can also tell him he must report to civil authorities if he ever wants to be forgiven *By the church* (Which is Jesus, right?)

The policies in the CHI include *must* elsewhere. 

 

2. Isn't the real problem that disciplinary action is delayed while criminal proceedings happen, when a confession to a bishop by a perp, or when credible statements are made that child abuse has occurred, the person should be disciplined immediately?   Of course the challenge is that discipline requires two witnesses.   And bishops cannot disclose confessions without the permission of the person giving them.  So it is impossible to meet the requirements of discipline when the perp is unwilling to allow their confession to be shared if there s not a victim and someone else with at least corroborating information.

But in terms of confession, the perpetrator has confessed.  I mean,  he or she might be lying about his own misdeeds, but is this likely? I am talking about when someone has confessed under priest/penitent privilege. 

If the Bishop hears about a rape that is not protected by p/p privilege then he becomes a mandatory reporter in States that have that rule. Where they don't, he still has a moral and ethical obligation to report to protect victims. My friend is telling me of a bishop that didn't report a rape where he was told by the victim. He broke the law and committed a crime.

3.Another problem is that sometimes in divorce/custody situations or other circumstances, people are falsely accused.

Agreed, but the bishop isn't qualified to make that distinction. Let the authorities investigate.

4. So maybe one solution would be that the bishop could get a trespass order prohibiting a confessed child abuser from attending services or being at the church for any reason, immediately after hearing the confession.   Or better, assign someone to be with him at all times while he/she is on church property thereafter, and release him from all callings and tell the quorum leaders and ward missionary leader and family history leaders he is not to participate in any way at the church or any lds church building.

That all sounds good, but I would argue that the confessor still needs to face the legal ramifications of his acts, where rape, child molestation and molestation of the vulnerable occurs.

22 hours ago, rpn said:

 

 

 

[Abulafia]

I made a list of where *must* is used in the online excerpts of the 2010 CHI..

"Duplicating printed or recorded music without authorization from the copyright owner is contrary to Church policy. Music that has been duplicated contrary to this policy must not be used for Church purposes."

"Can I copy materials that are not owned by the Church? Generally not. Copyright laws govern the use of privately owned materials. Usually there are restrictions that give the conditions the public must follow before copying non-Church materials"

"To be considered for Church employment in any country, a person must meet all conditions of immigration and naturalization laws. "

"Members may not create websites, blogs, or social media profiles on behalf of the Church or to officially represent the Church and its views. However, they may create websites, blogs, or social media profiles to assist with their callings. When doing so, members must include a disclaimer such as “This is not an official website of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” and comply with the following guidelines:.."

"Local priesthood leaders must first approve the creation of calling-related websites, blogs, or social media profiles."

"Social media properties must be properly maintained and actively moderated to ensure that any inappropriate content is promptly removed."

"Missionaries and other members must be sensitive and respectful toward the beliefs of others and avoid giving offense"

[Tacenda]

Part two interview with McKenna is up. https://hotm.faith/

[Danzo]

6 hours ago, Abulafia said:

I made a list of where *must* is used in the online excerpts of the 2010 CHI..

"Duplicating printed or recorded music without authorization from the copyright owner is contrary to Church policy. Music that has been duplicated contrary to this policy must not be used for Church purposes."

"Can I copy materials that are not owned by the Church? Generally not. Copyright laws govern the use of privately owned materials. Usually there are restrictions that give the conditions the public must follow before copying non-Church materials"

"To be considered for Church employment in any country, a person must meet all conditions of immigration and naturalization laws. "

"Members may not create websites, blogs, or social media profiles on behalf of the Church or to officially represent the Church and its views. However, they may create websites, blogs, or social media profiles to assist with their callings. When doing so, members must include a disclaimer such as “This is not an official website of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” and comply with the following guidelines:.."

"Local priesthood leaders must first approve the creation of calling-related websites, blogs, or social media profiles."

"Social media properties must be properly maintained and actively moderated to ensure that any inappropriate content is promptly removed."

"Missionaries and other members must be sensitive and respectful toward the beliefs of others and avoid giving offense"

 

So word isn't used in relationship to any disciplinary actions.

From your examples the word "must' seems to refer to things that don't have a church disciplinary consequence.  (At  least I have never heard of one held for violations of these things)

[Abulafia]

1 hour ago, Danzo said:

So word isn't used in relationship to any disciplinary actions.

From your examples the word "must' seems to refer to things that don't have a church disciplinary consequence.  (At  least I have never heard of one held for violations of these things)

I was just trying to make the point that the word *must* removes ambiguity in many areas (copyright and respect for other religious traditions). 

Edited October 3, 2018 by Abulafia

[Danzo]

1 minute ago, Abulafia said:

I was just trying to make the point that the word *must* removes ambiguity in many areas (copyright and respect for other religious traditions). 

I think it does as a matter of policy, but not as a matter of action.

Unless there is an "-or else" clause attached to it, there isn't that much power behind the "Must"

[Abulafia]

17 hours ago, Danzo said:

I think it does as a matter of policy, but not as a matter of action.

Unless there is an "-or else" clause attached to it, there isn't that much power behind the "Must"

True...but in the case of a child abuser, it would be clear that he/she needed to go to civil authorities to effect true repentance.  That would have protected the church from the mess it appears to be in now..and it's still happening.

 

[smac97]

On 10/3/2018 at 7:46 AM, Tacenda said:

Part two interview with McKenna is up. https://hotm.faith/

Here's a transcript of what she has to say about her false rape claim (my transcript):

Quote

Shaun McCraney: How did you cope from that point, and did you go to Columbia?

McKenna Denson: I did not cope, and I did not go to Columbia.  I was not going to Columbia, anyway.  I was sent to Washington, D.C., and I was in a companionship.  So we were in a three, a group of three, I was with a companionship that was already established.  I was waiting for a visa or a different mission calling.  So I started having physical reactions, and I couldn't live with it.  I can now, but at the time I didn't know what was going on with me.  So I started shaking, and I couldn't get control of myself, and I was embarrassed, and I was ashamed, and I didn't want anyone to see me, I didn't want to explain it.  So I pretended that I, I left my camera in the car.  I pretended like I had to get it out of the car.  So while they were getting ready for bed, I was still dressed, and I ran to the elevator.  We were in Arlington, Virgina, a very tall apartment complex.  And I went downstairs and I ran into the parking lot, and I just started hyperventilating, and I almost started throwing up, and I was shaking, and I couldn't get control of my physical body.  And then, I don't know how long it was, it couldn't have been long, but the sisters came down and were like "what's the matter with you?"  And I was like "Um, somebody tried to rape me."  Yeah, that worked [rolls eyes].  So I don't know what they did.  I don't know if they called the district leader, or if they called the mission president directly, I don't know.  But I was sent to Provo, lived with a Mormon family.  They sent me to this therapist, who was horrible.  He was horrible.  One time, one interview.  [McCraney: LDS?"]  Yes.  One hour.  He talked about himself.  And then he said to me, "You have a secret."  He was really creepy about it.  "You have a secret.  You have a secret."  And I'm like, "Yeah, and I'm sure as hell not telling you."  Anyway, I would not talk to him, wouldn't see him again.  Didn't like him.  Didn't trust him.

And here's a part about her purported meeting with Elder Asay:

Quote

Denson: I went to UVU, which was Utah Valley Community College at the time.  And I met someone that I just fell in love with.  To this day.  The only man I've ever loved.  Sent him on a mission.  His parents just thought I was the best thing ever.  So, you know.  And then I didn't deserve him, I didn't deserve his family, they loved me, they adored me, I loved and adored them.  But I had all this stuff from my childhood, and President Bishop.  So I started dating someone that I felt I deserved more, for lack of a better word.  So we were engaged, and I remember telling him what happened with Joseph Bishop, and that I felt like I needed to take that forward, and he said no, you need to leave that alone, let it go.  I said, "I don't think so.  I really feel, it's been three years, I think I need to, I need to tell somebody."  He said "No, don't do it.  I don't support you in that."  I said, "Okay."  Well, I told anyway.  So I called my bishop, Ron Leavitt.  And I met with him, and told him what happened at the MTC.  And he was not real happy.  And he made some calls, and he arranged for me to meet with a guy named Elder Asay, Carlos Asay.  He was in the Seventy.   Apparently he was over the Missionary Department, I think, at the MTC.  I didn't even know who he was.  So he came, and my fiance at the time drove me to meet him, and they shook hands, and he waited out, 'cause he didn't come in the meeting with us.  And at the end Elder Asay said he would get back to me, he would investigate it and get back to me.  And [he said] I'm so sorry that happened to you, and blah blah blah.  And then I got married and moved to Taiwan, and I was there for almost four years.  So I never really thought about it.  I turned it all over to the Church, which is what we're supposed to do, right?  So I came back from Taiwan, had two babies in Taiwan, Nicole and Amanda.  Came back, got divorced, and I was like you know, whatever happened with that?  So for the next thirty years, [I've] been reaching out every few years going "Okay, so uh, whatever happened with that?" 

McCraney: So Asay never followed up with you, as far as you can tell?

Denson: He never followed up with me.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited October 4, 2018 by smac97

[Tacenda]

9 hours ago, smac97 said:

Here's a transcript of what she has to say about her false rape claim (my transcript):

And here's a part about her purported meeting with Elder Asay:

Thanks,

-Smac

Thanks so much! I will take a look, since I listened in bed and in and out of wakefulness.