Modesty issues...again

[Jeanne]

All I can say is that if it is hot outside...there is a pool...there is a youth shabang...if the girls have to wear shorts/t shirt...the boys do too....

[bluebell]

9 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Modesty in dress is hardly unique to the LDS. We wrestle with it every day in the public schools. It invariably comes down to “how much skin is showing.”

When putting together a camp manual, should there even be a section about modesty and clothing? If so how would it be worded? What are a few absolute principles?

I disagree with having modesty be the reason for school dress codes.  I completely believe in the importance of having school dress codes, but not couching the reason in 'because modesty.'  We should teach kids which clothes are appropriate for certain venues or activities so that they are prepared to dress with success in the world.

[bluebell]

29 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Thank you for responding. Could you provide some statements that could be used to teach ym and ym modesty to be included in a hypothetical FTSOTY booklet? How would you define modesty (in the area of dress) in an official way that could avoid situations like those in youth activities?

I don't see any reason to rewrite the FTSOY pamphlet.  It's fine, other than I would put more focus on the aspect of modesty that deals with being moderate and unassuming in dress and grooming, and treat the girls and boys equally in their ability to recognize modest clothing without specific guidelines.

Most of the problems that come from modesty issues in the church come from people adding rules and guidelines for dressing modestly that don't exist in the pamphlet.  It's not really the pamphlet itself.  

[changed]

29 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Except I asked that the rewrite to be specifically for the dress standards under the modesty heading as per the OP,  not the entire booklet. This was intended for those who might be unhappy with that section. You appear to be one who finds it unhelpful. Do you have any suggestions on what would make it better?

Your body is sacred. Respect it and do not defile it in any way.  - agree

Through your dress and appearance, you can show that you know how precious your body is. You can show that you are a disciple of Jesus Christ and that you love Him.

- do not agree.  We show character through actions, and what is on the inside, not based on what is on the outside.  It should not matter what you look like, or how you dress.  A construction worker, banker, lifeguard, farmer, technician - dirty cloths, weather appropriate cloths, business cloths - these do not indicate character or righteousness, thy indicate someone's work, they indicate weather and hopefully practicality.  Rewrite:  Do not judge anyone on their dress or appearance.  Different cultural upbringing, environments, and work requirements necessitate different styles of dress.  Christians know their worth lies in their actions and character, not on what they wear.  Take the time to get to know everyone around you, and do not judge any books by their cover.

Prophets of God have continually counseled His children to dress modestly. When you are well groomed and modestly dressed,

I know of no scriptures of prophets telling anyone what to wear.

...disagree - the Spirit does not care what cloths you have on.

rewrite:  When you are kind and serve others you invite the companionship of the Spirit and you can be a good influence on others. Your (dress and grooming) actions and behavior influence the way you and others act.

Never lower your standards of (not dress) behavior. Do not use a special occasion as an excuse to be (immodest) immoral. When you (dress immodestly) are not kind to others, you send a message that is contrary to your identity as a son or daughter of God. 

 

Quote

Immodest clothing is any clothing that is tight, sheer, or revealing in any other manner. Young women should avoid short shorts and short skirts, shirts that do not cover the stomach, and clothing that does not cover the shoulders or is low-cut in the front or the back. Young men should also maintain modesty in their appearance. Young men and young women should be neat and clean and avoid being extreme or inappropriately casual in clothing, hairstyle, and behavior. They should choose appropriately modest apparel when participating in sports. The fashions of the world will change, but the Lord’s standards will not change.

 

rewrite:  Throughout your life you will encounter many different people and cultures who dress differently, eat different food, celebrate different holidays, and hold to different customs.  Your Father in Heaven wants you to know that no matter what cloths you wear or food you eat, we are all precious children of God.  Heavenly Father looks on the hearts of his children, not on their outward appearances, and you should too.  As a Christian, you should refrain from judging based on clothing styles and cultures, and instead look to what is within those around you.  

 

Quote

Do not disfigure yourself with tattoos or body piercings. Young women, if you desire to have your ears pierced, wear only one pair of earrings.

Show respect for the Lord and yourself by dressing appropriately for Church meetings and activities. This is especially important when attending sacrament services. Young men should dress with dignity when officiating in the ordinance of the sacrament.

If you are not sure what is appropriate to wear, study the words of the prophets, pray for guidance, and ask your parents or leaders for help. Your dress and appearance now will help you prepare for the time when you will go to the temple to make sacred covenants with God. Ask yourself, “Would I feel comfortable with my appearance if I were in the Lord’s presence?”

How does my testimony of the gospel influence my choice of clothing?

Honestly, there should not be a chapter on clothing.  

 

 

Edited August 26, 2018 by changed

[Bernard Gui]

2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I disagree with having modesty be the reason for school dress codes.  I completely believe in the importance of having school dress codes, but not couching the reason in 'because modesty.'  We should teach kids which clothes are appropriate for certain venues or activities so that they are prepared to dress with success in the world.

I don’t think it is simply a matter of economics or social viability. 

There can be several legitimate reasons for having school/church/workplace dress codes...modesty, safety, health, appropriateness, etc. If you were a bishop or assistant school principal talking with a student who wears immodest attire to an activity, how  would you explain the inevitable question, “But what’s wrong with it?”

[Bernard Gui]

20 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I don't see any reason to rewrite the FTSOY pamphlet.  It's fine, other than I would put more focus on the aspect of modesty that deals with being moderate and unassuming in dress and grooming, and treat the girls and boys equally in their ability to recognize modest clothing without specific guidelines.

Most of the problems that come from modesty issues in the church come from people adding rules and guidelines for dressing modestly that don't exist in the pamphlet.  It's not really the pamphlet itself.  

I think you may be missing my point. The rewrite is purely hypothetical. I’m not calling for a rewrite. When I chaperoned school and church dances, it was nearly impossible to go an evening without multiple verbal challenges (often emotional and heated) to the dress code for the events. This lead to demands from both sides for more and more specific guidelines which lead to more confrontations. Some chaperones ignored the standards, some demanded they be followed jot and tittle. Eventually, I quit volunteering to be a chaperone. 

 Since so much misunderstanding and egregious misapplication apparently comes from the current wording, how could it be improved? Could you write a publishable statement that would reflect your position? I ask because I have been involved in both school and church attempts to write such a document. None of them was successful.

Edited August 26, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Tacenda]

22 minutes ago, changed said:

Your body is sacred. Respect it and do not defile it in any way.  - agree

 

 

- do not agree.  We show character through actions, and what is on the inside, not based on what is on the outside.  It should not matter what you look like, or how you dress.  A construction worker, banker, lifeguard, farmer, technician - dirty cloths, weather appropriate cloths, business cloths - these do not indicate character or righteousness, thy indicate someone's work, they indicate weather and hopefully practicality.  Rewrite:  Do not judge anyone on their dress or appearance.  Different cultural upbringing, environments, and work requirements necessitate different styles of dress.  Christians know their worth lies in their actions and character, not on what they wear.  Take the time to get to know everyone around you, and do not judge any books by their cover.

 

I know of no scriptures of prophets telling anyone what to wear.

...disagree - the Spirit does not care what cloths you have on.

rewrite:  When you are kind and serve others you invite the companionship of the Spirit and you can be a good influence on others. Your (dress and grooming) actions and behavior influence the way you and others act.

Never lower your standards of (not dress) behavior. Do not use a special occasion as an excuse to be (immodest) immoral. When you (dress immodestly) are not kind to others, you send a message that is contrary to your identity as a son or daughter of God. 

 

 

rewrite:  Throughout your life you will encounter many different people and cultures who dress differently, eat different food, celebrate different holidays, and hold to different customs.  Your Father in Heaven wants you to know that no matter what cloths you wear or food you eat, we are all precious children of God.  Heavenly Father looks on the hearts of his children, not on their outward appearances, and you should too.  As a Christian, you should refrain from judging based on clothing styles and cultures, and instead look to what is within those around you.  

 

 

If only...

[Tacenda]

6 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I think you may be missing my point. The rewrite is purely hypothetical. I’m not calling for a rewrite. When I chaperoned school and church dances, it was nearly impossible to go an evening without multiple verbal challenges (often emotional and heated) to the dress code for the events. This lead to demands from both sides for more and more specific guidelines which lead to more confrontations. Some chaperones ignored the standards, some demanded they be followed jot and tittle. Eventually, I quit volunteering to be a chaperone. 

 Since so much misunderstanding and egregious misapplication apparently comes from the current wording, how could it be improved? Could you write a publishable statement that would reflect your position?

Changed rewrote it perfectly. Did you see what she did? I need to go to the church of "Changed"... 

One thing that always bothers me, is how the leaders have stressed so much on the outward appearance. It's time for a "change".

[BlueDreams]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Thank you for responding. Could you provide some statements that could be used to teach ym and ym modesty to be included in a hypothetical FTSOTY booklet? How would you define modesty (in the area of dress) in an official way that could avoid situations like those in youth activities?

I know this and the previous questions weren't addressed directly to me, but it's something I've thought about a bit over the years. 

I would want modesty to be taught more as a principle than a specific set of clothing options that are okay or not. I would want the principle of modesty to be scripturally based. Which, in scripture is focused more on concerns of vanity as well as the covenants of God in being clothed. By vanity, I mean hyper focused on seeking "costly apparel" or things of that nature. I would also normalize the feelings of wanting to feel good and attractive as God given, but to be balanced with more important things in life, such as gaining an education and seeking out a testimony of our Savior. That feelings of budding sexuality, being attracted to others, and loving one's body shouldn't be repressed or ignored, but bridled....ie focused and influenced by our ultimate goals for healthy relationships and making covenants in our lives. That our energies and desires should not be excessively focused on trying to get physical attention by others. 

I would point out that what this specifically means may change based on the time of life, type of activity, cultural context, and personal circumstance. I would also strongly emphasize respecting others decisions and journey with modesty as you would with their journey with any other principle.

I would give nothing that is gender specific or an expectation of what constitutes modest based on this or that activity. 

 

With luv,

BD

Edited August 26, 2018 by BlueDreams

[Bernard Gui]

40 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

I don't think how we are currently teaching about modesty is really the right way to go. Hyperfocusing on length of clothes, tightness of shirts, etc doesn't teach one to manage one's approach to life in a modest way/attitude or to learn to bridle one's thoughts and guide them to god-given relationships. 

 

What would be a better way?

What do you think of this?

Quote

“The best protection against rape, stalking, and domestic violence is to raise men who both understand that women are different, and would never dare take advantage of this difference.” 
― Wendy Shalit, A Return to Modesty: Discovering the Lost Virtue

 

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, changed said:

I know of no scriptures of prophets telling anyone what to wear.

Thank you for your thoughtful response. I find much good with which to agree. We should not judge others on their dress. In real-life, specific questions will inevitably arise that will require a decision by someone in a leadership position. How would that apply to what is appropriate attire for, say, a dance or a camp? What would your dress policy look like, or would you even include one?

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Changed rewrote it perfectly. Did you see what she did? I need to go to the church of "Changed"... 

One thing that always bothers me, is how the leaders have stressed so much on the outward appearance. It's time for a "change".

I have heard many leaders stress that most important inward change.....AKA repentance. 

Edited August 26, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

All I can say is that if it is hot outside...there is a pool...there is a youth shabang...if the girls have to wear shorts/t shirt...the boys do too....

And conversely, if the boys are allowed to go shirtless, the girls should too?

[Bernard Gui]

41 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

I know this and the previous questions weren't addressed directly to me, but it's something I've thought about a bit over the years. 

I would want modesty to be taught more as a principle than a specific set of clothing options that are okay or not. I would want the principle of modesty to be scripturally based. Which, in scripture is focused more on concerns of vanity as well as the covenants of God in being clothed. By vanity, I mean hyper focused on seeking "costly apparel" or things of that nature. I would also normalize the feelings of wanting to feel good and attractive as God given, but to be balanced with more important things in life, such as gaining an education and seeking out a testimony of our Savior. That feelings of budding sexuality, being attracted to others, and loving one's body shouldn't be repressed or ignored, but bridled....ie focused and influenced by our ultimate goals for healthy relationships and making covenants in our lives. That our energies and desires should not be excessively focused on trying to get physical attention by others. 

I would point out that what this specifically means may change based on the time of life, type of activity, cultural context, and personal circumstance. I would also strongly emphasize respecting others decisions and journey with modesty as you would with their journey with any other principle.

I would give nothing that is gender specific or an expectation of what constitutes modest based on this or that activity. 

 

With luv,

BD

Thank you for these excellent suggestions. Your emphasis on modesty as a principal of character is crucial.

Sometimes our journey leads us to the doors to a youth activity. What guidance would you give the gatekeepers who are facing the issue of let in or not let in? Should they have a checklist? Should there be any restrictions?

If you have not already seen it, I think you would enjoy Wendy Shalit’s book A Return to Modesty. Sister Gui read it a while back and recommended it to all our family. It approaches modesty in a way similar to yours but through the eyes of an Orthodox Jewish woman. There’s a sizable quote here...

https://books.google.com/books?id=idCDAAAAQBAJ&pg=PT12&source=kp_read_button

Edited August 26, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Jeanne]

19 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

And conversely, if the boys are allowed to go shirtless, the girls should too?

Boys shouldn't go shirtless if the girls can't...

[Bernard Gui]

8 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Despite everything else Amulek has written, I don't have a problem with primary teachers reminding children of either sex to keep their clothes on in class.

I don't have any issue with 'For the Strength of Youth'. At all. First of all, its title says it's for 'youth', not eight-year-olds. The First Presidency preface is addressed to 'Our dear young men and young women'.

Secondly, I've just had a re-read. Nowhere does it mention knee-length shorts or forcing young women (or men) to swim in heavy cotton T-shirts. It also doesn't say there's anything 'immodest' about wearing shorts whilst camping or, worse, wearing swimwear whilst swimming. In other words, despite your dramatic overreaction, it's possible to be perfectly on-board with the Church's dress standards and still be concerned when certain zealous Saints go overboard with their own personal additions to FTSOY.

You know, like that one person in every ward who tells everyone that drinking hot chocolate or eating gluten is really banned by the Word of Wisdom. Now imagine that person being in charge of the youth snow trip and posting on Facebook that chocolate and biscuits will be banned because, well, the Word of Wisdom!

Our youth can read, for heaven's sake. Telling them that crazy rules like no capris at camp is because of FTSOY standards just isn't going to fly if they've actually read the pamphlet.

Forgive me for copying a response I wrote to another poster, but it applies here, too.

 I think you may be missing my point. The rewrite is purely hypothetical. I’m not calling for a rewrite. When I chaperoned school and church dances, it was nearly impossible to go an evening without multiple verbal challenges (often emotional and heated) to the dress code for the events. This lead to demands from both sides for more and more specific guidelines which lead to more confrontations. Some chaperones ignored the standards, some demanded they be followed jot and tittle. Eventually, I quit volunteering to be a chaperone. 

 Since so much misunderstanding and egregious misapplication apparently comes from the current wording, how could it be less ambiguous? Could you write a publishable statement that would reflect your position in real life situations when the standards are challenged? I ask because I have been involved in both school and church attempts to write such a document. None of them was successful.

[strappinglad]

16 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

And conversely, if the boys are allowed to go shirtless, the girls should too?

Thus sayeth the law in parts of my country. Mind you, for most of the year clothing is not optional because it's TOO Blasted chilly. On only a couple of days a year do the ' I got the right to go shirtless ' ladies march around . After they have made their points and gotten the predictable media coverage, they all go back to trying to stave off sunburn and skin cancer.

 

[Calm]

If the argument is girls and women shouldn't go shirtless because it is sexually arousing for many others to see them in that state, may .I point out the endless beefcake photos and screen appearances of shirtless men.  Anyone claiming that boys and men going shirtless is not sexually arousing for others needs to explain all those shirtless sex shots of men.

Edited August 26, 2018 by Calm

[Scott Lloyd]

38 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Thank you for these excellent suggestions. Your emphasis on modesty as a principal of character is crucial.

Sometimes our journey leads us to the doors to a youth activity. What guidance would you give the gatekeepers who are facing the issue of let in or not let in? Should they have a checklist? Should there be any restrictions?

If you have not already seen it, I think you would enjoy Wendy Shalit’s book A Return to Modesty. Sister Gui read it a while back and recommended it to all our family. It approaches modesty in a way similar to yours but through the eyes of an Orthodox Jewish woman. There’s a sizable quote here...

https://books.google.com/books?id=idCDAAAAQBAJ&pg=PT12&source=kp_read_button

An interesting and thought-provoking piece. I just now read through much of it (as you mentioned, the excerpt is fairly sizable.

A couple of thoughts that occurred to me as I read:

First, given the harassment that the author endured in her university years, I wondered whether college campuses need to institute the vaunted "safe spaces" for those who champion traditional values, who, as the author put it are attacked not for being wrong but for being right.

Second, for some reason it made me think of this portion of an email I received this past week from the principal at the high school my son attends, not to me specifically, but to families of students enrolled there:
 

Quote

 

We have been a little lenient on dress code these first few days, but we do ask your assistance with this. The dress code was set by the Board of Education, and we are required to uphold their policy which addresses the following: ...

- Skirts and shorts must cover the buttocks.

 

How sad that things have gotten so extreme in society today that a public school administration must be so explicit with something that ought to go without saying, for parents if not for students themselves.

 

Edited August 26, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[strappinglad]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

I think you would enjoy Wendy Shalit’s book A Return to Modesty

Excellent !!

[juliann]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

 

When putting together a camp manual, should there even be a section about modesty and clothing? If so how would it be worded? What are a few absolute principles?

If it is a mountain camp, clothing rules should be to protect the body. Everyone should be covered with long pants for tick protection, etc., but doesn’t need to be hot heavy jeans.

At least in CA, swimwear is getting to be more about protecting from sun. So even long sleeved rash guards are common. It’s definitely not uncool and not about “modesty.”  It would be a good tie in to teaching about honoring your body as you protect it from cancer causing elements (although I would have a fear of the usual ward “more is better” personality taking this too far as well. )

if you stick with the common sense stuff, it applies equally to all. Boys wear rash guards, too. (I don’t have one so I always put a lightweight T-shirt over my suit at the beach and make sure it is either tight or tied at the bottom so it doesn’t balloon in the water.)

[canard78]

On 8/24/2018 at 11:34 PM, smac97 said:

"Ridiculous": deserving or inviting derision or mockery; absurd.

Synonyms: absurd, bizarre,fantastic, foolish, goofy, impossible, incredible, laughable, ludicrous, nonsensical, outrageous, preposterous, silly, unbelievable, wacky, antic, comic, comical, contemptible, daffy, derisory, droll, farcical, foolheaded, gelastic, grotesque, harebrained, hilarious, jerky, nutty, risible, sappy, slaphappy.

Are the guidelines really that bad?  They are totally outside the bounds of reasonableness?  They are patently, irredeemably "ridiculous?"

Or is it possible that reasonable minds can disagree about them?

I agree.

So there were no problems with "modesty" in the 70s, then?

Unhealthy in what way?

I think the point is to avoid "making something sexual for young women."

And there seems to be a middle road here.  The Church isn't mandating this level of "modesty":

Or this:

I acknowledge that reasonable minds can disagree about what "common sense and decency" means in terms of modesty.  But the Church's general guidelines, and the ones you cited, do not seem extreme or ridiculous.

Thanks,

-Smac

You highlight those versions of modesty as excessive but your version as acceptable. 

Such subjectiveness!

[canard78]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

An interesting and thought-provoking piece. I just now read through much of it (as you mentioned, the excerpt is fairly sizable.

A couple of thoughts that occurred to me as I read:

First, given the harassment that the author endured in her university years, I wondered whether college campuses need to institute the vaunted "safe spaces" for those who champion traditional values, who, as the author put it are attacked not for being wrong but for being right.

Second, for some reason it made me think of this portion of an email I received this past week from the principal at the high school my son attends, not to me specifically, but to families of students enrolled there:
 

How sad that things have gotten so extreme in society today that a public school administration must be so explicit with something that ought to go without saying, for parents if not for students themselves.

 

I attended a parents’ briefing meeting for a school trip. The entire focus for clothing was aimed at the girls and their bodies. 

It’s the sexualisation of girls that is particularly problematic in this skewed focus of attention. 

If schools and churches must put down clothing guidelines, I wish they would at least treat children and teens equally. 

[canard78]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

An interesting and thought-provoking piece. I just now read through much of it (as you mentioned, the excerpt is fairly sizable.

A couple of thoughts that occurred to me as I read:

First, given the harassment that the author endured in her university years, I wondered whether college campuses need to institute the vaunted "safe spaces" for those who champion traditional values, who, as the author put it are attacked not for being wrong but for being right.

Second, for some reason it made me think of this portion of an email I received this past week from the principal at the high school my son attends, not to me specifically, but to families of students enrolled there:
 

How sad that things have gotten so extreme in society today that a public school administration must be so explicit with something that ought to go without saying, for parents if not for students themselves.

 

I attended a parents’ briefing meeting for a school trip. The entire focus for clothing was aimed at the girls and their bodies. 

It’s the sexualisation of girls that is particularly problematic in this skewed focus of attention. 

If schools and churches must put down clothing guidelines, I wish they would at least treat children and teens equally. 

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, juliann said:

If it is a mountain camp, clothing rules should be to protect the body. Everyone should be covered with long pants for tick protection, etc., but doesn’t need to be hot heavy jeans.

At least in CA, swimwear is getting to be more about protecting from sun. So even long sleeved rash guards are common. It’s definitely not uncool and not about “modesty.”  It would be a good tie in to teaching about honoring your body as you protect it from cancer causing elements (although I would have a fear of the usual ward “more is better” personality taking this too far as well. )

if you stick with the common sense stuff, it applies equally to all. Boys wear rash guards, too. (I don’t have one so I always put a lightweight T-shirt over my suit at the beach and make sure it is either tight or tied at the bottom so it doesn’t balloon in the water.)

In Australia, the Gold Coast lifeguards wore neck to wrist to ankle suits for skin protection from the sun. They were definitely cool. 

Edited August 26, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Thinking]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Modesty in dress is hardly unique to the LDS.

True.

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

We wrestle with it every day in the public schools.

Yes we do.

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

It invariably comes down to “how much skin is showing.”

Partially true.

Inappropriate messages on t-shirts, among other things, are also against many dress codes.

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

When putting together a camp manual, should there even be a section about modesty and clothing?

Probably, although I don't think I would use the word modesty.

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

If so how would it be worded?

Be sure to dress appropriately for the different activities and meetings...

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

What are a few absolute principles?

For girls camp I would say wearing clothes.