Modesty issues...again

[Rivers]

19 minutes ago, Calm said:

More susceptible does not mean women are not though...or that a greater susceptibility removes even partial responsibility to self control.

It is wise to be selfaware and learn one's triggers because that will be the only way self control will come.

It doesn't come by telling others they have to avoid the triggers for you though.  Makes sense to childproof a house, but does anyone really want others to keep treating them as a child when they are adults if they take the time to think about it?  I would hope not.  If they do, maybe they ought to consider the  self-control and responsibility that comes with exaltation.  No bubble wrapping there, I am guessing.

I wouldn’t argue that self control isn’t important.  I speak from experience as a heterosexual male that controlling thoughts and actions is a constant struggle that we live with.  It’s a part of life.  

[Hamba Tuhan]

4 minutes ago, Rivers said:

I speak from experience as a heterosexual male that controlling thoughts and actions is a constant struggle that we live with.

One more reason to resist the cultural forces in the West that seek to normalise and inculcate heterosexuality ...

[Rivers]

18 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Historical examples would strongly suggest that such things are culturally determined.

I wouldn’t argue that culture plays a role but there’s no doubt that there’s significant differences between male and female brains.

[Rivers]

3 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

One more reason to resist the cultural forces in the West that seek to normalise and inculcate heterosexuality ...

Are you saying heterosexuality needs to be abnormalized?

 

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 minute ago, Rivers said:

Are you saying heterosexuality needs to be abnormalized?

Sexual identity is a demonstrable historical anomaly. It causes issues and struggles for Saints in all of its iterations.

[Rivers]

So 

56 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Sexual identity is a demonstrable historical anomaly. It causes issues and struggles for Saints in all of its iterations.

Interesting point.  So would you agree with Elder Bednar when he said there are no homosexual members of the church seeing that homosexual is a sexual identity?  

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Rivers said:

I wouldn’t argue that self control isn’t important.  I speak from experience as a heterosexual male that controlling thoughts and actions is a constant struggle that we live with.  It’s a part of life.  

I can assure you it is the same for many women, all women I suspect if you throw in the whole spectrum of thoughts and actions. 

[Rivers]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

I can assure you it is the same for many women, all women I suspect if you throw in the whole spectrum of thoughts and actions. 

It’s been said that women struggle more with literary porn while men struggle more with the visual.  

[Hamba Tuhan]

26 minutes ago, Rivers said:

So would you agree with Elder Bednar when he said there are no homosexual members of the church seeing that homosexual is a sexual identity?  

In the way that the statement was intended by Elder Bednar, absolutely. 

I’ve been repeatedly stuck by how historicallly informed the prophets are whenever they speak on this topic. 

Edited August 27, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[canard78]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I suppose one advantage of making the same post twice is that an individual can give you two rep points for it. (Just kidding. I'm certain it was inadvertent.)

As does replying to both  

(and yes, sometimes it seems to have not sent from mobile and then hitting send duplicates).

[Bernard Gui]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

So you are suggesting no one finds shirtless men arousing?  

Btw, if you google "sexy shirtless" it is men's pictures that primarily show up, not women's....at least on my iPad.

I have no idea, but I would assume most women would not. You will have to bring me up to date. I can imagine it could be arousing to gay men, at least that is the impression given in our pop culture.

Sister Gui, my source for all things feminine, tells me that the fundamental differences in anatomy and sexual responses between men and women make visual arousal far more common and intense for men than women,  but we don’t run in those circles, so what would we know? 

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said:

Sister Gui, my source for all things feminine, tells me that the fundamental differences in anatomy and sexual responses between men and women make visual arousal far more common and intense for men than women,  but we don’t run in those circles, so what would we know? 

I think you may find that this is a cultural pattern in the West that is shifting significantly.

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

It can't. I'm quite certain that's the whole point.

The alternative has been tried by our fellow People of the Book, but I feel confident that the prophets don't want to replicate either Jewish or Islamic law.

Perfect as it stands? OK. I’m not sure I agree with your characterization of Jewish law. I did not get that impression from Wendy Shalit at all.

[Bernard Gui]

1 minute ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I think you may find that this is a cultural pattern in the West that is shifting significantly.

In what way? 

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, Thinking said:

I would hope that the girls and their parents collaborate on what to take to camp.

I’m sure they do. 

Quote

Absolutes can create more problems than they solve.

You suggested there are absolutes. What would be a few examples?

Quote

Suppose a rule was listed that shorts had to have an inseam of at least 4 inches. One girl has a pair of shorts that appears to have an inseam of less than 4 inches. Do the leaders measure the inseam? How do the leaders approach the girl without embarrassing her? There might be girls telling on each other for borderline infractions.

Yes, it is a minefield. Perhaps the leaders have unsuccessfully tried other things but simply throw up their hands and say it’s not worth the hassle, so it’s going to be this way, and put out blanket statements.

Quote

Yes. If I was in charge and knew the trail had the probability of scratching legs, that's what I would say. I gave you one example. Hopefully there would be a list of activities so the girls (or boys) could make informed decisions.

I spend a lot of time on Mt Rainier. When the weather is warm, most hikers wear shorts on the trails. I don’t because I hate mosquito bites. My experience is that most youth don’t make rational informed wardrobe decisions. 

Edited August 27, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

7 hours ago, bluebell said:

I'm not sure how saying 'I don't think it needs to be rewritten' is missing the point though. I told you the parts that I would change.  I think the rest is fine.  From my perspective, the pamphlet isn't really the problem. It's the people that want to hold others to their personal interpretation of the pamphlet that is the problem.  

Isn’t that the problem with any non-specific guideline? There’s always room for personal interpretation. Do you think they are operating with ill will? 

7 hours ago, bluebell said:

Specific guidelines are necessary if someone is going to not let someone participate in an event because they are 'not dressed modestly.'  But when we take 'you will not be allowed to come to the activity' off the table, then specifics are not necessary at all.

Until the standards are challenged, then specifics loom large.

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, ttribe said:

🤣  Busted!!!!!

UhOhhhhhh. Gui’s Law violation! 😎

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Rivers said:

It’s been said that women struggle more with literary porn while men struggle more with the visual.  

We all have our weaknesses..

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Rivers said:

It’s been said that women struggle more with literary porn while men struggle more with the visual.  

I think it is a constant struggle to be the kind of human God wants us to be, with lots of dimensions to mix and complicate and confuse us to what should be important to focus our efforts on.  But I predict it becomes a losing battle as soon as you start looking at others to provide the effort for what should be personal control since it is our own personal reactions that affect our growth.

If we can ask those with LGBT+ feelings to exercise strong, self- control over their attractions 24/7 and encourage them to do so by exploring new ways to look at their feelings, then I see it as reasonable to ask any man or woman of adult mental capability to exercise enough self-control over their attractions for the time it takes to walk by another or endure a meeting or class without looking at others in lust or in some way making that person the focus of their discomfort---'if only she wasn't wearing such shorts, I wouldn't be having these feelings, this problem'...sorry, the problem is already there like faulty wiring, it just gets noticed when the power gets switched on.... and it is reasonable to suggest to them they might find a personal point of view change more effective than blaming society or others, waiting passively to be sinned upon.

And I see it as reasonable to ask those men and women who see their attractions as part of who they are (whatever those attractions might be) and therefore believe if others respect them that the others should be making continual accommodation for their strong feelings, their strong needs---whether it is by others removing the need for self-control by rewriting the Law of Chastity or shifting the responsibility to others (insisting everyone dress in ways safe for you, no one in the house watch or listen to anything you deem unsafe for you, no one speaks of anything that triggers your uncontrolled, potentially sinful thoughts of lust, anger, jealousy...no speaking politics, no one buying nicer things than yours, no one criticizing your work or lack thereof) to instead of remaining in a possibly satisfying, but dysfunctional lifestyle to explore new ways of becoming more accountable...rather than staying locked in one mode that is taking you nowhere.

Purification of our baser feelings doesn't come about by atrophy from lack of opportunity to use them I am guessing, especially if that lack of opportunity comes about because you are passively accepting or worse demanding the protection of others.

may have to rewrite that later...getting sleepy.  If the top makes little sense read the paragraph immediately above.

Edited August 27, 2018 by Calm

[Calm]

Another thought....

I know some people on the board have criticized political correctness or creating safe zones meant to prevent emotional harm to vulnerable individuals.

Suggesting that women wear less provocative clothing because men are generally susceptible to visual triggers and such triggers cause them significant emotional discomfort and even undesired inappropriate thoughts to the point they are reluctant to enter the rooms where they work knowing they will encounter women's dress that makes them uncomfortable....sounds like a parallel situation where men and boys are being defined as vulnerable and the politically correct response is to create a safe place for men by requiring women to wear non provocative clothing.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

UhOhhhhhh. Gui’s Law violation! 😎

So I qualify here as the one defending modesty and those questioning my position would therefore be attacking it?  Good to know.  

Edited August 27, 2018 by Calm

[juliann]

10 hours ago, Rivers said:

I don’t know if this point has been brought up yet.  I haven’t read the entire thread.  But it should be noted that men, in general, are much more susceptible to visual sexual stimuli than women.  

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/03/040316072953.htm

 

 

I don’t think a 2004 question begging study of  28 people, in which man and women were given the same stimulus, measures anything at all. Other than women aren’t as stimulated by porn which was almost certainly made for men. 

[rongo]

Thought of this thread this weekend . . .

We moved my son into the honors dorm at NAU this week. His roommate didn't arrive until Friday or Saturday, so my son had the dorm to himself for a bit. They had been in contact over the summer, and get along well. He is from SoCal, attended a private Lutheran school, and is an NRA-certified shooting instructor out of high school. Reports since then are that they get along very well, but my son was a little taken aback that he sleeps in and walks around in just his boxers while in the dorm room. We told him that this isn't uncommon outside of the Church. It appeared to us in moving him in that easily 80% of the 600 kids in the honors dorm are girls (most in girls-only dorms, but some are in co-ed ones as well). My son's neighbors are two girls, and their female RA is the other neighbor. We told him the odds are ever in his favor with the girl-boy ratios . . .   It will be good for him to live among mainly non-members for a school year before his mission. 

The student wards had 18 convert baptisms last year. He was blown away and excited with the LDSSA activities and comraderie he's experienced thus far. I can see how missionary work will be pretty natural and easy with 200-300 LDS kids among 24,000 for those who attend church and activities. You are pretty conspicuous going places dressed up often, FHE groups, activities, etc. 

[rongo]

7 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I think you may find that this is a cultural pattern in the West that is shifting significantly.

It absolutely is. While men still struggle with masturbation and pornography far more than women, these things are increasing significantly among women, based on my experiences with LDS women confessions over the last 12 years. I think this trend in "masculinization" of women is very troubling. There are going to be a lot of psychological, emotional, sexual health, etc. problems coming down the pike that didn't really used to be there. I'm glad I get a breather from the bishop business for a while . . . 

[juliann]

10 hours ago, Rivers said:

I wouldn’t argue that self control isn’t important.  I speak from experience as a heterosexual male that controlling thoughts and actions is a constant struggle that we live with.  It’s a part of life.  

Then why make it all about what females do?