Denson's Lawsuit Dismissed by Federal Judge

[Scott Lloyd]

6 minutes ago, provoman said:

I was thinking the same thing.

 

there is a reddit user who posted he was going to visit 3 wards to push his agenda, he even posted a few videos of his "progandamony"

Suggestion for first-Sunday elders quorum council meeting: what to expect or do if/when intruders try to commandeer sacrament meeting.

[Calm]

15 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Suggestion for first-Sunday elders quorum council meeting: what to expect or do if/when intruders try to commandeer sacrament meeting.

Should be discussed in RS too so both parents are prepared if necessary.

[Scott Lloyd]

Just now, Calm said:

Should be discussed in RS too so both parents are prepared if necessary.

Agreed. Or perhaps a fifth-Sunday combined priesthood-Relief Society lesson.

[USU78]

Misdemeanor committed in presence of non cop authorizes arrest of misdemeanant by non cop. Upon arrest, non cop can remove misdemeanant from site.

Also, landowner who had granted limited license to be on land may personally or through agents remove license terms violator from premises.

Bottom line, I don't think much of the smart aleck's case.

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Agreed. Or perhaps a fifth-Sunday combined priesthood-Relief Society lesson.

I suspect the chances of this type of intrusion happening is likely quite low (though most members have experiences about at least one or two creepy testimonies so preparation in general is not a waste of time, imo), but it could be part of a discussion on helping your kid deal with shocks in general and antimormon stuff being shoved at them in particular.

Edited September 4, 2018 by Calm

[Calm]

7 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

 

Who's the guy with her?

I am not sure your question was answered.  This is the guy who gets and gives fake temple recommends (harder to do not it is digitized) or valid ones from disaffected members and has in the past snuck into temples to film the ceremonies.  He has done some other immoral stunts, but this is what he is most known for.  Iirc, he recently got arrested for trespassing.

Edited September 4, 2018 by Calm

[Scott Lloyd]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

I suspect the chances of this type of intrusion happening is likely quite low (though most members have experiences about at least one or two creepy testimonies so preparation in general is not a waste of time, imo), but it could be part of a discussion on helping your kid deal with shocks in general and antimormon stuff being shoved at them in particular.

I think it needs to be more specific than that.

We have seen a number of such occurrences in the news of late, and things may get worse: first Savannah and now Denison. And I understand Sam Young spoke in testimony meeting on Sunday, though apparently he didn't say or do anything too awfully obnoxious.

What if it were to happen and tensions were to escalate to the point that a brawl ensues? Or what if, as Juliann suggested, the intruder were to go bat crazy and start shooting?

It could help to have a contingency plan in everyone's mind so that if, say, it did become necessary to dismiss the meeting, people would quickly leave the premises instead of freaking out.

 

[MiserereNobis]

Just now, Calm said:

I am not sure your question was answered.  This is the guy who gets and gives fake temple recommends (harder to do not it is digitized) or valid ones from disaffected members and has in the past snuck into temples to film the ceremonies.  He has done some other immoral stunts, but this is what he is most known for.  Iirc, he recently got arrested for trespassing.

Lame again. One can certainly protest a church, describe its failings, try to make it respond and improve. But once one crosses the boundaries to act like they act, all moral superiority goes away.

They really need to study Gandhi, Thoreau, MLK jr, etc, if they want to really create change.

[Calm]

1 minute ago, MiserereNobis said:

Lame again. One can certainly protest a church, describe its failings, try to make it respond and improve. But once one crosses the boundaries to act like they act, all moral superiority goes away.

They really need to study Gandhi, Thoreau, MLK jr, etc, if they want to really create change.

Much easier to just label themselves as followers than actually study these men.

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I think it needs to be more specific than that.

We have seen a number of such occurrences in the news of late, and things may get worse: first Savannah and now Denison. And I understand Sam Young spoke in testimony meeting on Sunday, though apparently he didn't say or do anything too awfully obnoxious.

What if it were to happen and tensions were to escalate to the point that a brawl ensues? Or what if, as Juliann suggested, the intruder were to go bat crazy and start shooting?

It could help to have a contingency plan in everyone's mind so that if, say, it did become necessary to dismiss the meeting, people would quickly leave the premises instead of freaking out.

 

I think it would be a good idea to plan for the worst (shooting, fire, earthquake) and then include less dangerous scenarios.

Savannah was over a year ago.  2 incidents in 2 years in all the US wards doesn't seem like a number of occurrences.  Are you aware of more?

Edited September 4, 2018 by Calm

[Kenngo1969]

2 hours ago, USU78 said:

Isn't comparative fault a negligence defense? Not an intentional tort defense?

 

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Meaning?

I am not a lawyer.  Anyone with questions regarding intentional torts vs. negligence torts and the potential defenses to each should contact a lawyer who is licensed to practice in the jurisdiction where the matter arose.  Now, with those exceedingly tiresome caveats out of the way ...  

Some jurisdictions apportion fault in negligence claims ("comparative negligence"), while other jurisdictions prevent plaintiffs from recovering damages at all if said plaintiffs are, in any degree, at fault for what happens to them ("contributory negligence").  Thus, if I sue someone for negligence in a comparative negligence jurisdiction, and the judge or jury finds that I am 30% responsible for what happened to me while the defendant is 70% responsible for what happened to me, any damages I might win from that defendant will be reduced by my 30% share of the responsibility.  Conversely, if I sue someone for negligence in a contributory negligence jurisdiction, since I contributed to what happened to me (regardless of what the defendant did to me) I am barred from recovering damages at all.

However, the foregoing only applies to negligent torts (essentially, to torts involving carelessness), not to intentional torts such as assault and battery.  If I sue someone for an intentional tort such as assault and battery, even if I contribute to my situation by, for example, somehow failing to act with the ordinary care that a reasonably prudent person might exercise in the same or similar circumstances (e.g., it might not be the smartest thing in the world to walk down a dark alley located in a bad part of town at 3 a.m., and most reasonably prudent people would avoid such a situation), my poor choice to walk down that dark alley located in a bad part of town at 3 a.m. has no bearing on the defendant's choice to commit assault and battery.  Therefore, if I prove to a judge or to a jury, at least, by a preponderance of the evidence (think "at least 50% plus the tiniest bit more") that the defendant committed assault and battery on me and I was harmed as a result, I'm still entitled to recover full damages even if, perhaps, a wiser person would have avoided that dark alley located in a bad part of town at 3 a.m.

By contrast, in circumstances such as these, no one gets a free pass to create a disturbance.  If someone comes into a church meeting and proceeds (as happened here) to be disruptive, a person in charge of the premises and/or his designee(s) is entitled to use reasonable force to quell the disturbance and to remove the disturbed individual (an apt descriptor for Ms. Denson, I believe, although some of her claims are likely to arouse the sympathies of others).  Can Ms. Denson claim she was a victim of assault and battery?  Yes, she can, but since she willingly placed herself in that situation, that claim isn't likely to get a lot of traction (to put it mildly).  Can she claim that the force used was not reasonable?  Yes, she can, but, again, that claim, too, isn't likely to get very far.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

43 minutes ago, Calm said:

I think it would be a good idea to plan for the worst (shooting, fire, earthquake) and then include less dangerous scenarios.

Savannah was over a year ago.  2 incidents in 2 years in all the US wards doesn't seem like a number of occurrences.  Are you aware of more?

No. But i"m not aware of any prior to these. Nor was it very common to see it chattered about on social media such as Reddit.

 

[Hamba Tuhan]

18 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

No. But i"m not aware of any prior to these. Nor was it very common to see it chattered about on social media such as Reddit.

There is at least one other on Reddit that was filmed and shared this week.

[provoman]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I think it would be a good idea to plan for the worst (shooting, fire, earthquake) and then include less dangerous scenarios.

Savannah was over a year ago.  2 incidents in 2 years in all the US wards doesn't seem like a number of occurrences.  Are you aware of more?

yes there is a reddit user who has posted his the recordings of usurping testimony meeting, he has a beard, wears a ponytail and wears sandal,. One of his incidents seemed like a drive by; as he states the showed up walked in and upto the podium gave his propagandamony, then immediately left.

[Scott Lloyd]

7 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

There is at least one other on Reddit that was filmed and shared this week.

 

5 minutes ago, provoman said:

yes there is a reddit user who has posted his the recordings of usurping testimony meeting, he has a beard, wears a ponytail and wears sandal,. One of his incidents seemed like a drive by; as he states the showed up walked in and upto the podium gave his propagandamony, then immediately left.

I just saw a posting on YouTube. The guy showed a portion of the Denson video,  then talked about his own testimony meeting hijacking escapade and complained that he couldn't get Dehlin to interview him.

 

[Hamba Tuhan]

21 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The guy showed a portion of the Denson video,  then talked about his own testimony meeting hijacking escapade and complained that he couldn't get Dehlin to interview him.

No interest from Dehlin? Poor fellow. This is like buying a ticket to show only to find out it's been overbooked.

[Scott Lloyd]

28 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

No interest from Dehlin? Poor fellow. This is like buying a ticket to show only to find out it's been overbooked.

Pretty pathetic when not even Dehlin shows interest. 

[Calm]

KUTV is publizing her antics:

Quote

On Sunday, Denson took the pulpit in Arizona to bear testimony. While at the microphone, she says she looked directly at Bishop and told the congregation what she says he did to her all those years ago. Denson had multiple cameras rolling at the time, which captured what happened next. 

Quote

Denson said she wanted to be there to warn others in that ward. She said many in the congregation looked uncomfortable and shocked, but adds that if she were still attending church and there were a sexual predator in her ward, she would want to know.

She could have waited until SS or handed out fliers.  Lots of options.  Plus she didn't open with the accusation but instead attacked Church leadership.  No need to record it with multiple cameras except if meant to publicize herself.

Church's response:

Quote

Once each month, members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints participate in a worship service that includes an opportunity for members to share their testimonies of the Savior, Jesus Christ, and His gospel. It is disappointing that anyone would interrupt such a worship service to bring attention to their own personal cause. Recording and posting of these disruptions on social media to seek public attention and media coverage, sadly, shows an unfortunate lack of respect for others. We respectfully request that those with personal grievances find other means to communicate their messages than disrupting the sanctity of a worship service.

 

Edited September 4, 2018 by Calm

[Calm]

She claims he took the Sacrament while she was there,

But she was outside the building and then 5 minutes later on the stand.  If the Bishop introduced testimonies as he usually does, how could she have seen him?

KUTV cut the whole prank beginning (Norton:  I'm bored.  McKenna, can you think of something fun to do today?..etc.  click coffee cups together; one hour later, he has a white shirt on and a missionary name tag, she isin Sunday dress and they are filming themselves lauaghing and singing the theme song to Mister Roger's neighborhood, do a little bantering routine mocking fasting, etc. they obviously are thinking is clever in their discovery they just so happen to be outside Bishop's ward.)  Only place that isn't cut on the TV clip, the sound is superimposed to make her sound serious and concerned instead of out having fun.

she apparently gets some water and then they go in and she is on stand...so no seeing the Sacrament, but what's a little lying if it makes the story better.

They also cut the accusation against Church leadership,so the story becomes just about her heroic public confronting her rapist instead of intentionally flying out there (who funded that, I wonder) to play a prank.  I call it that because that is exactly how they present it and I believe them.  They were bored and thought they would have fun ruining a ward's Sabbath.  I think KUTV is now perpetuating a fraud by their choice of reporting and editing to misrepresent what was really going on.

She raised her voice to yell at the congregation s she was walking away from the mic and it sounded the same, so they likely cut the mic sometime during that.

Edited September 4, 2018 by Calm

[Avatar4321]

6 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Lame again. One can certainly protest a church, describe its failings, try to make it respond and improve. But once one crosses the boundaries to act like they act, all moral superiority goes away.

They really need to study Gandhi, Thoreau, MLK jr, etc, if they want to really create change.

Or they could study Jesus Christ who taught them

[Abulafia]

Hi all. 

 

I know I will be vehemently disagreed with here, I just wanted to add another perspective on this.

 

1. Both McKenna and Mike Norton were sexually abused in childhood.  Mike by a close relative who is currently serving as a Mission President. McKenna was not only raped in childhood but then by the MTC president.  There are other victims and one is from my home stake. We have all heard the tape.

 

2. This was an empowering act for both McKenna and actually for Mike. Remember that Joseph B told McKenna no one would believe her, all those years ago.  He was right.

 

3. A parent could well use this event to talk about inappropriate  relationships and abuse. Given there is likely to be at least one child experiencing abuse or an adult that has experienced abuse in the congregation, this could be seen as an empowering act.  

 

4. This sends a message to abusers that they cannot hide behind anonymity or NDAs.

 

My 2 cents.

[Kenngo1969]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

I think it would be a good idea to plan for the worst (shooting, fire, earthquake) and then include less dangerous scenarios.

Savannah was over a year ago.  2 incidents in 2 years in all the US wards doesn't seem like a number of occurrences.  Are you aware of more?

 

6 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

No. But i"m not aware of any prior to these. Nor was it very common to see it chattered about on social media such as Reddit.

 

 

6 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

There is at least one other on Reddit that was filmed and shared this week.

 

6 hours ago, provoman said:

yes there is a reddit user who has posted his the recordings of usurping testimony meeting, he has a beard, wears a ponytail and wears sandal,. One of his incidents seemed like a drive by; as he states the showed up walked in and upto the podium gave his propagandamony, then immediately left.

 

6 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

 

I just saw a posting on YouTube. The guy showed a portion of the Denson video,  then talked about his own testimony meeting hijacking escapade and complained that he couldn't get Dehlin to interview him.

 

 

6 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

No interest from Dehlin? Poor fellow. This is like buying a ticket to show only to find out it's been overbooked.

So many apostates, so little time!!!   

   

[sunstoned]

9 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Been thinking now might be a good time to revive the Nauvoo Whittling and Whistling Brigade of old. But with grown men in the brigade, not 12-year-old boys, as we erroneously believed for all those years. 

That would be kind of scary.   Maybe a switch to turn off the mic.  

Edited September 4, 2018 by sunstoned

[Kenngo1969]

52 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

Hi all. 

 

I know I will be vehemently disagreed with here, I just wanted to add another perspective on this.

 

1. Both McKenna and Mike Norton were sexually abused in childhood.  Mike by a close relative who is currently serving as a Mission President. McKenna was not only raped in childhood but then by the MTC president.  There are other victims and one is from my home stake. We have all heard the tape.

 

2. This was an empowering act for both McKenna and actually for Mike. Remember that Joseph B told McKenna no one would believe her, all those years ago.  He was right.

 

3. A parent could well use this event to talk about inappropriate  relationships and abuse. Given there is likely to be at least one child experiencing abuse or an adult that has experienced abuse in the congregation, this could be seen as an empowering act.  

 

4. This sends a message to abusers that they cannot hide behind anonymity or NDAs.

 

My 2 cents.

All of this, even if absolutely correct (frankly, given the track records of some of the individuals involved, I would need to ingest about a case of salt in order to be persuaded that I should believe them when it comes to some of the particulars alleged) is irrelevant.  No one here is arguing that they don't have a right to speak out.  However, even in the United States, where there aren't a lot of restrictions the government legally can impose on one's right to speak out, time, place, and manner all matter.  Indecent exposure, disorderly conduct, and whatever other statutes might  apply aside, if you want to protest whatever by getting naked and howling at the moon downtown, have at it.  Be my guest.  More power to you.  However, don't expect to be able to do the same thing in my living room.  ("Ay, there's the rub!")  And that's why everything you just wrote is irrelevant here.

 

Edited September 4, 2018 by Kenngo1969

[Hamba Tuhan]

I note that the first part of the video has now been censored. Interesting.