Popular Post rockpond Posted September 4, 2018 Popular Post Posted September 4, 2018 30 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said: In 2016, US bishops/BPs got a "Security Guidelines for Church Meetinghouses" bulletin. With her comments about personal space , I'm thinking Denson had access to it. If she did, she was a) testing adherence to the policy, or b) trying to shut down the meeting. I recall a couple years back, possibly in response to the above noted bulletin, our Bishop had a discussion with us in Ward Council. He explained that if he stood up and dismissed Sacrament meeting, he needed the ward council members and their families to immediately get up and leave so that the remaining families in the ward would follow their lead. He wanted to be able to give the direction just once and have the chapel quickly evacuated. I thought it was a really good plan. In this particular case, I think that would have been an appropriate action by the bishop: dismiss the ward and cut off the mic. Having the organist play a loud hymn at the same time would have further served to cut off Denson. And, with everyone standing to leave, Norton's camera work would have been hindered. Not that I fault the bishop in this instance -- I can't say that I would have known the best thing to do in that moment either. 7
Thinking Posted September 4, 2018 Posted September 4, 2018 8 minutes ago, provoman said: What is justice? Does justice throwout the law? Or is Justice when we go to Law, allow the law to consider the state of affairs, and then the law provides either a remedy to plaintiff or defendant? Justice was served, we may not like it, but what has ocurred for her in the legal world is Justice. Justice isn't ignoring the law or taking it into our hands. What about church justice? Has Bishop been disciplined by the Church? If so, does McKenna have a right to know the nature of the discipline? I would classify the statute of limitations running out as getting off on a technicality, not justice. 1
provoman Posted September 4, 2018 Posted September 4, 2018 1 minute ago, Thinking said: What about church justice? Has Bishop been disciplined by the Church? If so, does McKenna have a right to know the nature of the discipline? I would classify the statute of limitations running out as getting off on a technicality, not justice. What the Church has done is none of your business, none of my business, none of Denson's business. And who is Denson or you or me to dictate to the Church what "Church Justice". And ABSOLUTLEY NOT, Denson has no right to know the nature of any action the Church has taken. 1
rockpond Posted September 4, 2018 Posted September 4, 2018 4 minutes ago, Thinking said: What about church justice? Has Bishop been disciplined by the Church? If so, does McKenna have a right to know the nature of the discipline? I would classify the statute of limitations running out as getting off on a technicality, not justice. The Church's legal team did a good job of protecting the institution. Now, I'd like to see Denson's priesthood leaders protect and minister to the victims. 1
rockpond Posted September 4, 2018 Posted September 4, 2018 2 minutes ago, provoman said: What the Church has done is none of your business, none of my business, none of Denson's business. And who is Denson or you or me to dictate to the Church what "Church Justice". And ABSOLUTLEY NOT, Denson has no right to know the nature of any action the Church has taken. As members, the church's response to sexual predators is something we should all be keeping an eye on. 3
bluebell Posted September 4, 2018 Posted September 4, 2018 3 minutes ago, rockpond said: The Church's legal team did a good job of protecting the institution. Now, I'd like to see Denson's priesthood leaders protect and minister to the victims. I though that Denson resigned her membership? 1
rockpond Posted September 4, 2018 Posted September 4, 2018 1 minute ago, bluebell said: I though that Denson resigned her membership? I'm not sure. But when she was victimized, she was a member.
SouthernMo Posted September 4, 2018 Posted September 4, 2018 6 minutes ago, provoman said: What the Church has done is none of your business, none of my business, none of Denson's business. And who is Denson or you or me to dictate to the Church what "Church Justice". And ABSOLUTLEY NOT, Denson has no right to know the nature of any action the Church has taken. I think I understand that you see a difference between our state judicial system and our church disciplinary system. They are different, should be, and we don't need to try and make one be the proxy for the other - no matter how mad we are that we were harmed. But, perhaps we can have compassion on those who are/feel wronged. Imagine if you or a loved one was seriously hurt by someone who you are asked to sustain, but you have no idea if that person was dealt with or how their alleged misdeeds were addressed. I think 'letting it go' and 'trusting that justice was served' would be very difficult. I'd have a hard time supporting the individual who perpetrated the harm and the leaders who call him to his next position of trust and authority. 2
bluebell Posted September 4, 2018 Posted September 4, 2018 5 minutes ago, rockpond said: I'm not sure. But when she was victimized, she was a member. Definitely, when she was victimized. But if she has removed herself from membership then she currently has no priesthood leaders.
rockpond Posted September 4, 2018 Posted September 4, 2018 4 minutes ago, bluebell said: Definitely, when she was victimized. But if she has removed herself from membership then she currently has no priesthood leaders. I don't think that changes my point that our priesthood leaders should be treating this much differently than the church's legal team. Our charge is to minister to the least of these, and that includes Denson whether still on the records or not. Instead, it seems that the wagons have only been circled around Joseph Bishop. This is problematic for a number of reasons. 1
Duncan Posted September 4, 2018 Posted September 4, 2018 1 minute ago, rockpond said: I don't think that changes my point that our priesthood leaders should be treating this much differently than the church's legal team. Our charge is to minister to the least of these, and that includes Denson whether still on the records or not. Instead, it seems that the wagons have only been circled around Joseph Bishop. This is problematic for a number of reasons. do you think she'd be open to Church leaders talking with her and trying to get her help? 3
rockpond Posted September 4, 2018 Posted September 4, 2018 1 minute ago, Duncan said: do you think she'd be open to Church leaders talking with her and trying to get her help? I think so, but I don't know her personally.
provoman Posted September 4, 2018 Posted September 4, 2018 14 minutes ago, SouthernMo said: I think I understand that you see a difference between our state judicial system and our church disciplinary system. They are different, should be, and we don't need to try and make one be the proxy for the other - no matter how mad we are that we were harmed. But, perhaps we can have compassion on those who are/feel wronged. Imagine if you or a loved one was seriously hurt by someone who you are asked to sustain, but you have no idea if that person was dealt with or how their alleged misdeeds were addressed. I think 'letting it go' and 'trusting that justice was served' would be very difficult. I'd have a hard time supporting the individual who perpetrated the harm and the leaders who call him to his next position of trust and authority. Compassion does not require me to accept her death threats against a person. Compassion does not require me to accept her holding a religious meeting hostage for her own pet agenda. Compassion does not require the Church to provide her the details - even an iota - of any action the Church has taken against J Bishop. 1
provoman Posted September 4, 2018 Posted September 4, 2018 30 minutes ago, rockpond said: As members, the church's response to sexual predators is something we should all be keeping an eye on. It is none of your business nor mine nor Denson's what action the Church has taken.
rockpond Posted September 4, 2018 Posted September 4, 2018 6 minutes ago, provoman said: Compassion does not require me to accept her death threats against a person. Compassion does not require me to accept her holding a religious meeting hostage for her own pet agenda. Compassion does not require the Church to provide her the details - even an iota - of any action the Church has taken against J Bishop. I agree with the first two points but disagree with that last one. 3 minutes ago, provoman said: It is none of your business nor mine nor Denson's what action the Church has taken. So it is not the business of the members to be aware of how the church deals with sexual predators among our leadership? I strongly disagree. 3
SouthernMo Posted September 4, 2018 Posted September 4, 2018 11 minutes ago, provoman said: Compassion does not require me to accept her death threats against a person. Compassion does not require me to accept her holding a religious meeting hostage for her own pet agenda. Compassion does not require the Church to provide her the details - even an iota - of any action the Church has taken against J Bishop. Compassion seems to be difficult for you to feel. I’m sorry about that.
provoman Posted September 4, 2018 Posted September 4, 2018 7 minutes ago, rockpond said: I agree with the first two points but disagree with that last one. So it is not the business of the members to be aware of how the church deals with sexual predators among our leadership? I strongly disagree. What is your rationale that Denson is entitled to any details about action taken against J Bishop?
provoman Posted September 4, 2018 Posted September 4, 2018 4 minutes ago, SouthernMo said: Compassion seems to be difficult for you to feel. I’m sorry about that. Can you explain why compassion would require me to be accepting of her conduct? 2
Popular Post Thinking Posted September 4, 2018 Popular Post Posted September 4, 2018 13 minutes ago, provoman said: It is none of your business nor mine nor Denson's what action the Church has taken. Quote In some cases the presiding officer may find it beneficial to notify some or all of the victims and, when necessary, their families that the transgressor has been the subject of a disciplinary council. (CHI Book 1 Section 10) 5
provoman Posted September 4, 2018 Posted September 4, 2018 1 minute ago, Thinking said: your point? Notice who makes the decision, until that decision is made, it is no elses business or right to know.
Rain Posted September 4, 2018 Posted September 4, 2018 14 hours ago, Tacenda said: Oh, I didn't think of that, yeah, lame. She should have known better. But the younger ones, would they know what pedophile or rape mean? And don't children hear those words on the news all the time. And what about getting questioned in bishop's interviews with the word masturbate? Or other words that some on here think children should know about? ETA: Or the youth that heard this will make sure to speak out against anyone that tries anything on them. That will forever stay in their minds that they are not to take sexual abuse of any kind. I think we need to openly discuss this problem in the world. Time to shout to the roof tops. You have a good heart and are compassionate for others. Serious question - If this had been your ward and you were really trying to hear the Spirit or your grandchildren's ward would you really be ok with this? 1
rockpond Posted September 4, 2018 Posted September 4, 2018 5 minutes ago, Thinking said: During my time serving in the bishopric, there was an affair that impacted two marriages within our ward. It become apparent to us that informing ward members of disciplinary action was necessary. I think it would be the right thing to do in the case of Denson and Bishop as well. 2
Rain Posted September 4, 2018 Posted September 4, 2018 (edited) Has anyone saved the video with the "bored" part? Just thinking about if it were taken down and edited, would others believe it was in there and how it came across. Not asking anyone to do it. Just wondering if someone has. Edited September 4, 2018 by Rain
SouthernMo Posted September 4, 2018 Posted September 4, 2018 5 minutes ago, provoman said: Can you explain why compassion would require me to be accepting of her conduct? First - nothing is required of you. You’re free to act how you will and develop any character traits you please. But, to answer your question, I think that just as Ms. Denison seems to be having a hard time separating state justice and church discipline, you are having a hard time separating compassion for her, and acceptance of her conduct. You can feel one without the other.
ALarson Posted September 4, 2018 Posted September 4, 2018 23 minutes ago, provoman said: It is none of your business nor mine nor Denson's what action the Church has taken. I disagree that it is none of her business (Denson's). If there is a court held regarding her abuse at his hands, she has every right to be interested and follow it. The decision of the court is private, however, and I agree that if no one reveals the outcome (or if one is even held), it will remain confidential. I have to believe that she knows if there has been a court held or whether he's resigned without a court (but maybe not?). As far as I know, nothing has been confirmed regarding his membership status.
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