Denson's Lawsuit Dismissed by Federal Judge

[smac97]

24 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Smac, could you address whether the local leadership would have the right to have her bodily removed for trespass and being persistently disruptive during a worship service? 

Honestly I'm not sure what the lot is on that point. I think they could have legal justification in restraining her if she was a threat to others, but simply being an annoyance may be a different matter.  My understanding is that the church handbook gives instructions that if a person is disrupting a meeting the leaders are supposed to ask the person to stop, and if the person persists then the meeting should be dismissed and the police summoned.

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

Right, because 12 year old kids and younger should be forced to listen to someone describe a rape.  There is not going to be anything traumatic for them in that.

Her choice to put kids in this position deeply angers me.

Amen and amen!

The fact that this stunt is being largely celebrated on forums where participants have repeatedly sided with Sam Young because they claim to care deeply about protecting LDS children from trauma reveals rank hypocrisy.

And it's not just children who would have been traumatised by this self-serving hijacking of a worship service. No amount of after-the-fact hymn singing is going to change the fact that this woman cared nothing about spiritually and emotionally wounding an entire congregation in order to pursue her own ego-driven agenda.

What a 'hero' for Church-haters to have rallied around!

[Scott Lloyd]

8 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Honestly I'm not sure what the lot is on that point. I think they could have legal justification in restraining her if she was a threat to others, but simply being an annoyance may be a different matter.  My understanding is that the church handbook gives instructions that if a person is disrupting a meeting the leaders are supposed to ask the person to stop, and if the person persists then the meeting should be dismissed and the police summoned.

Maybe that’s the best course of action. A few prosecutions for criminal trespass might be a deterrent to this sort of thing. 

What’s the legal basis for removing disrupters from the Conference Center?

Edited September 4, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[Tacenda]

8 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Honestly I'm not sure what the lot is on that point. I think they could have legal justification in restraining her if she was a threat to others, but simply being an annoyance may be a different matter.  My understanding is that the church handbook gives instructions that if a person is disrupting a meeting the leaders are supposed to ask the person to stop, and if the person persists then the meeting should be dismissed and the police summoned.

They should have done that vs. holding her like they did. 

[Duncan]

Remind me again what Bishop's interview involve children? I can only think of a baptismal interview at 8 and that's it until they are 12, but Bishops aren't interviewing 5 year olds here

[Tacenda]

Just now, Duncan said:

Remind me again what Bishop's interview involve children? I can only think of a baptismal interview at 8 and that's it until they are 12, but Bishops aren't interviewing 5 year olds here

Five year olds don't listen to rape or pedophile on the news stories? Or do they even know what it means? I think the more shocking part of all of this was the man handling.

[Scott Lloyd]

3 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

They should have done that vs. holding her like they did. 

What do you mean “holding her”? It looked to me like they were just trying to get her to leave the rostrum so they could resume the meeting unmolested. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

9 minutes ago, smac97 said:

My understanding is that the church handbook gives instructions that if a person is disrupting a meeting the leaders are supposed to ask the person to stop, and if the person persists then the meeting should be dismissed and the police summoned.

I've searched both Handbooks and couldn't find these instructions. They may be there, and I missed them. They sound good to me, but then I suspect you American Saints may need to be prepped for a number of sacrament and other meetings that end abruptly in dismissal if current Reddit postings are any indication.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 minute ago, Tacenda said:

Five year olds don't listen to rape or pedophile on the news stories? Or do they even know what it means? I think the more shocking part of all of this was the man handling.

I didn’t see any manhandling. 

[Tacenda]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

What do you mean “holding her”? It looked to me like they were just trying to get her to leave the rostrum so they could resume the meeting unmolested. 

They should have turned off the mic and stood up to tell the ward that Sacrament Meeting is dismissed because this women is off base by interrupting the meeting and then mention that the police will be called if she doesn't leave the premises. 

[Scott Lloyd]

Just now, Hamba Tuhan said:

I've searched both Handbooks and couldn't find these instructions. They may be there, and I missed them. They sound good to me, but then I suspect you American Saints may need to be prepped for a number of sacrament and other meetings that end abruptly in dismissal if current Reddit postings are any indication.

Been thinking now might be a good time to revive the Nauvoo Whittling and Whistling Brigade of old. But with grown men in the brigade, not 12-year-old boys, as we erroneously believed for all those years. 

[Calm]

20 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Oh, I didn't think of that, yeah, lame. She should have known better. But the younger ones, would they know what pedophile or rape mean? And don't children hear those words on the news all the time. And what about getting questioned in bishop's interviews with the word masturbate? Or other words that some on here think children should know about? ETA: Or the youth that heard this will make sure to speak out against anyone that tries anything on them. That will forever stay in their minds that they are not to take sexual abuse of any kind. I think we need to openly discuss this problem in the world. Time to shout to the roof tops.

You think it is appropriate to talk to 5 year olds about rape?

Quote

the youth that heard this will make sure to speak out against anyone that tries anything on them. That will forever stay in their minds that they are not to take sexual abuse of any kind. I think we need to openly discuss this problem in the world. Time to shout to the roof tops.

You are dreaming if you think an uncontrolled situation that is more likely to cause fear and embarrassment for younger kids is somehow going to armour them against abuse.  If that were true, than there shouldn't be any word spoken about sexually explicit bishop interviews.

And if parents are casually watching news that talks about rape and violence in front of their younger kids, shame on them.  I remember 9/11 and tons of reports of kids unable to sleep on their own at night, afraid for their parents to go to work, etc. because all they understood was people got hurt and thought it would happen anywhere, anytime.  I know kids who won't go to movie theatres now.  

There are ways to approach the subject of abuse, but unprepared, in a crowd with dozens of people reacting around them, and awkward isn't one of them.

Edited September 4, 2018 by Calm

[Duncan]

6 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Five year olds don't listen to rape or pedophile on the news stories? Or do they even know what it means? I think the more shocking part of all of this was the man handling.

and a parent can tell them if they decide to, this is manhandling!

 

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

They should have turned off the mic and stood up to tell the ward that Sacrament Meeting is dismissed because this women is off base by interrupting the meeting and then mention that the police will be called if she doesn't leave the premises. 

And of course they had tons of time to prepare their proper response when a normal appearing woman walks off the street and into a meeting and comes to the stand and immediately starts going off on there being a sexual predator in the ward who raped her.

[Scott Lloyd]

11 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

They should have turned off the mic and stood up to tell the ward that Sacrament Meeting is dismissed because this women is off base by interrupting the meeting and then mention that the police will be called if she doesn't leave the premises. 

OK. But it didn’t look to me like they were “holding” or “manhandling” her. I don’t know where you’re getting that. 

And someone here mentioned that maybe they did turn off the mic (that would be the first thing I’d do) and that what you heard was the audio from her phone camera. 

I think, before resorting to dismissing the meeting, leadership should first give the intruder the chance to comply with the request to leave with no further interruption. Dismissing the meeting from the get-go strikes me as overreacting. 

If it does come down to dismissing the meeting, I think the intruder should be prosecuted, whether or not he or she chooses to leave at that point. The crime would already have been committed. 

Edited September 4, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[Tacenda]

12 minutes ago, Calm said:

And of course they had tons of time to prepare their proper response when a normal appearing woman walks off the street and into a meeting and comes to the stand and immediately starts going off on there being a sexual predator in the ward who raped her.

Shoulda, woulda, coulda!

Yeah, they are definitely going to need to train bishoprics, it's becoming a thing. 

ETA:

Here is another F&T video on Reddit where the bishopric took hold of the guy. 

file:///home/chronos/u-6670d360874b1eaea21bbdc4270abcd677ccef05/Downloads/Escorted%20out%20of%20F&T%20meeting%20today%20VIDEO%20_%20exmormon.mhtml

Also, just now I saw a portion of the church handbook. They are to give the person their space, they didn't do that with McKenna or the other guy, protesting for Sam. I guess these bishoprics didn't read the handbook thoroughly or enough. 

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/9cq4ij/do_not_attempt_to_physically_restrain_the_person/

 

Edited September 4, 2018 by Tacenda

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I've searched both Handbooks and couldn't find these instructions. They may be there, and I missed them. They sound good to me, but then I suspect you American Saints may need to be prepped for a number of sacrament and other meetings that end abruptly in dismissal if current Reddit postings are any indication.

And given the police aren't likely to be there for a number of minutes (the video iirc had her up there for about two or three), it would probably be a good idea to evacuate the kids at least because if anyone insists on staying, they should not be subjected to 10 or 20 minutes of watching someone rant, maybe start yelling to be heard, etc.  

I can imagine a number of kids not wanting to go to church for a number of months after seeing something like that.

I would suggest the organist begin to play a song and the bishop dismiss the meeting.  Of course that wouldn't stop someone from following people out, but if anyone was there just to impress Reddit, they likely wouldn't go further.

[Calm]

20 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

 

I think, before resorting to dismissing the meeting, leadership should first give the intruder the chance to comply with the request to leave with no further interruption. Dismissing the meeting from the get-go strikes me as overreacting. 

It might discourage future intruders if this becomes a thing, why make the effort if you won't get your captive audience.

Edited September 4, 2018 by Calm

[Calm]

23 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Maybe that’s the best course of action. A few prosecutions for criminal trespass might be a deterrent to this sort of thing. 

Maybe some civil suits by parents for emotional damage?

[Scott Lloyd]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

It might discourage future intruders if this becomes a thing.

Or it could become a thing for intruders to go around the Church forcing the cancellation of meetings, especially if they learn they can do it with impunity. It would be like the heckler’s veto on college campuses. 

[Scott Lloyd]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

Maybe some civil suits by parents for emotional damage?

I’d gladly bring a test case — or contribute to someone else’s. 

I think we need to safeguard our sacred services as sanctuaries. 

[Calm]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Or it could become a thing for intruders to go around the Church forcing the cancellation of meetings, especially if they learn they can do it with impunity. It would be like the heckler’s veto on college campuses. 

When kids' anxieties are involved, I don't think it is an appropriate time to be worried about being pushed around.  Start having them charged with disorderly conduct if necessary, but get the kids out of there.

[Hamba Tuhan]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

I can imagine a number of kids not wanting to go to church for a number of months after seeing something like that..

Yep. It's all about the kids until, well, it's not really.

[provoman]

1 hour ago, USU78 said:

Isn't comparative fault a negligence defense? Not an intentional tort defense?

Ahhh, good point, i did not consider intentional v negligent

[provoman]

10 minutes ago, Calm said:

Maybe some civil suits by parents for emotional damage?

I was thinking the same thing.

 

9 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Or it could become a thing for intruders to go around the Church forcing the cancellation of meetings, especially if they learn they can do it with impunity. It would be like the heckler’s veto on college campuses. 

there is a reddit user who posted he was going to visit 3 wards to push his agenda, he even posted a few videos of his "progandamony"

Edited September 4, 2018 by provoman