Denson's Lawsuit Dismissed by Federal Judge

[rockpond]

1 minute ago, mormondialoguethrowaway said:

Yes, but the rape claim is new.  It's fabricated for attention and for grounds to attempt to sue.  The original abuse would not have worked as a lawsuit.

The only witness who is alive and can recall any of this, Ron Leavitt, said in 1987 that there was no claim of rape when McKenna met with him. 

I agree that the rape claim is unsubstantiated.  But, for me, the sexual assault that Bishop confessed to is sufficient to warrant disciplinary action.  And sufficiently damaging to Denson that she deserves better care from her ecclesiastical leaders than what she received. 

[rockpond]

9 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

You are only one of several posters on this forum who make this statement as if it's a statement of fact. It's not.

We have a woman in my ward who likewise claims that she was raped by a Church leader. As soon as it was reported to the then stake presidency, police were notified. A thorough investigation was completed. In the end, the authorities found no evidence that a rape had occurred.

The sister in my ward has refused to accept this outcome, possibly because it's false. The problem is, no one has sufficient evidence that it is. If we had that evidence, the man whom she claims raped her would be in gaol. He's not.

This absolutely drives her mad. She has stopped coming to church, and she has banned her husband and children from attending. She tells everyone who will listen to her that our current stake presidency are harbouring a rapist. We aren't. We are attempting to protect a man who has been accused and then cleared of rape charges.

But no. We're actually part of an evil institution that won't believe women or treat them with respect or listen to them. We're part of an 'old boys' priesthood network. We're literally everything that people in this and other threads have levelled at current Church leaders in America.

Except that we aren't. In order to satisfy this woman's demands, we would have to excommunicate a man who has been cleared of the very act that she wants -- demands! -- that we excommunicate him for.

To be on the safe side, he's been relieved of all Church responsibilities. This is not enough. The cry is for figurative blood, and nothing else will suffice.

Is this madness because this woman was indeed raped? Maybe. Is it because she's mad? Maybe. Who knows?

Thankfully, stake members here seem to understand the concept of innocent until proven guilty better than half the posters in this thread. 

Do you (or anyone else on the thread) know how many cases of sexual abuse by priesthood leaders the church has settled and kept secret through NDA’s? 

Do we have any idea how often it happens?

[Tacenda]

2 minutes ago, mormondialoguethrowaway said:

Yes, but the rape claim is new.  It's fabricated for attention and for grounds to attempt to sue.  The original abuse would not have worked as a lawsuit.

The only witness who is alive and can recall any of this, Ron Leavitt, said in 1987 that there was no claim of rape when McKenna met with him. 

That's because at the time she didn't understand the full meaning or what constitutes rape when she spoke with the embosile shingles ward bishop  Leavitt, since Joseph Bishop was unable to finish the attempt. The Provo police are the ones that told her the meaning of rape and that is what had happened to her if she was telling the truth. I'm embarrassed to admit I would have thought the same thing.

[Hamba Tuhan]

27 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

I can see her not wanting to go to the same ward as the accused.

They don't even live in the same ward or attend the same building.

Nevertheless, this woman and her family are not coming back to church as long we harbour her 'rapist'. What a nightmare!

By the way, I'm new to the stake presidency and so don't know much about recent situations in other wards, but we actually have a second instance of this in our stake. What I know is that a sister in this other ward accused a recent convert male of some kind of impropriety. It was immediately reported to the police. They did an investigation and found zero evidence of any wrongdoing. This woman stopped coming to church, and now her husband has joined her, and we recently had to release him from the high council. For months before this, the stake president tried to meet with one or both of them. No go. They have iPhones, but my messages have gone unread.

We have discussed at length what sort of pastoral care this family might need, but it's impossible to know or to provide it when they won't respond to phone calls, text messages, letters, etc. They won't even answer their door if it's someone from the Church. The last contact anyone had there (before my current calling), the woman accused the Church of not taking sexual assault seriously.

Serious question: what more can we do??? 

Edited September 5, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[Calm]

2 hours ago, rockpond said:

Yes, Leavitt erred at the time he was told by Denson (possibly Elder Asay - we only have conflicting testimony).  And other church leaders failed to provide pastoral care later on (post 2010).  This is my point - she should have been cared for by church leaders better than she was. 

But we have only her claims and a short statement from the Church.  Lots of details left out of both, imo..  

The other victim was provided with counseling according to the Church's report and we haven't heard her contradict that:

https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/statement-former-mission-president-alleged-abuse-joseph-l-bishop-march-2018

So the difference might be local leaders or it may be that Denson refused help.  She is reported as a former member, so if she refused to meet with the leaders, there would have been nothing they could have done.  Or the leaders may have decided her threat with the gun was enough to not engage with her.  Maybe they knew of her history of fraud (we don't know if other family lived in the area, her ex husband might have shared that info).  Or they might have been jerks and ignored her because she wasn't a member and they thought she would drop it after the police showed up.  Or they might have engaged with her as neighbours rather than leaders and she didn't realize the intent was pastoral care.

Edited September 5, 2018 by Calm

[mormondialoguethrowaway]

1 minute ago, rockpond said:

I agree that the rape claim is unsubstantiated.  But, for me, the sexual assault that Bishop confessed to is sufficient to warrant disciplinary action.  And sufficiently damaging to Denson that she deserves better care from her ecclesiastical leaders than what she received. 

I agree as well.  In 1987 she was told it would be investigated further by the church, but she was never contacted again.  From what I understand, the church has significantly changed its reporting and investigative processes when these accusations are made.

Also, sexual assault is the wrong word to use, as the physical contact claims are also a recent fabrication from McKenna.  It doesn't fit with the evidence in 1987.  Sexual abuse is probably a better term. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, sunstoned said:

I think we need to keep in mind when we judge her actions that she was raped by a MTC President. 

No, we don't know that.

He confessed to the private meetings and asking a sister missionary to expose herself.  No one has confirmed any other actions on his part.

We also know that Denson has made false accusations of rape and by her own account said nothing of the rape to her bishop, Elder Monson or a therapist and quite possibly Elder Asay if he actually met with her as her description of the interview never specifies she said anything about a rape.

I would not be surprised either way.  Bishop has no credibility in his denials with me, but Denson has blown her credibility too with her long history of fraud and her own descriptions of her interviews which contradict her general claims, imo.

Edited September 5, 2018 by Calm

[mormondialoguethrowaway]

6 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

That's because at the time she didn't understand the full meaning or what constitutes rape when she spoke with the embosile shingles ward bishop  Leavitt, since Joseph Bishop was unable to finish the attempt. The Provo police are the ones that told her the meaning of rape and that is what had happened to her if she was telling the truth. I'm embarrassed to admit I would have thought the same thing.

This is huuuuuuge stretch for two reasons

1) Someone who has a history of making up rape accusations against others knows very well what rape is.

2) The singles ward bishop in 1987 recalls hearing no information about anything physical or attempted physical assault.

Her story she gave to the Provo police does not match what was told in 1987. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

6 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Do you (or anyone else on the thread) know how many cases of sexual abuse by priesthood leaders the church has settled and kept secret through NDA’s? 

Do we have any idea how often it happens?

How would anyone know that for the worldwide Church???

I have been in my current stake for 15+ years now. This is my second time serving in the stake presidency, and I have also served in three bishoprics. I can tell you that, to my knowledge, this stake has never had a single confirmed instance of sexual abuse by a priesthood leader.

We did have one case in my ward years ago where a ward member was caught in an internet sting 'grooming' a young woman from overseas who was actually a police officer. Within hours of this being known, he was released from his calling and banned from having any contact with youth. The legal processes were drawn out. A small number of ward members were really frustrated that he wasn't excommunicated immediately. The stake presidency patiently explained to these people that we don't excommunicate people based on media reports; we wait for legal processes to reach their conclusion and establish the facts of the matter.

Once this man was convicted in court, he was promptly excommunicated. The First Presidency has since authorised his rebaptism because we actually believe in repentance in the Church of Jesus Christ, but I can assure you that we all keep a close eye on this man, and the notation on his membership record means he can't escape that scrutiny. At the same time, I greet him at church just like I do everyone else. Thankfully, he was caught before things went beyond creepy behaviour online.

[provoman]

37 minutes ago, rockpond said:

You left out one key element:  Bishop confessed to sexually assaulting Denson. 

Are you positive about that. Yes he apoligized - he didn't specify as to what, and after she accused him he stated he didn't remember it that way, he also repeatedlynsaid he was worried about what he has forgotten, but I do not recall him confessing to sexually assaulting Denson.

[Calm]

Abulifia, false reporting has a low percentage (best studies are 2-8%), but of the two typical false reporters, one type is a person with multiple false reports (the other is the girl who gets confronted by parents and then pushed to report it by those parents).  This unfortunately puts Denson in a higher percentage of risk for false reporting.

Given her own descriptions of her interviews with Leavitt (who screwed up royally, imo, and I would have no problem if there was financial restitution for that), Elder Monson, a therapist, her mission president, and Elder Asay, she does not describe it as reporting a rape prior to 2010.  She even specifies she didn't tell the therapist, her mission Pres., and .Elder Monson iirc...possibly Leavitt, been too long since I last reviewed her comments.

If her descriptions are accurate, she didn't report ia rape until 2010, at which time she also threatened to kill Bishop with a gun.

I have a real problem ignoring that threat when making judgments of her local leaders.

We do not currently know if there was any attempt to contact her by her local leaders in 2010 after her threat iirc from the newsroom report.  They may have thought it was wiser not to approach a woman who threatened to kill a man who as far as they knew was decent (since he denied at the time).  I don't know what the procedure, if there is one, in cases where threats have been made.

The other victim received both pastoral care and professional therapy when she reported in 2010.  That could be leader roulette or indicative of willingness to accept that kind of assistance from the Church by one and not the other.

Edited September 5, 2018 by Calm

[Abulafia]

23 minutes ago, mormondialoguethrowaway said:

This is huuuuuuge stretch for two reasons

1) Someone who has a history of making up rape accusations against others knows very well what rape is.

2) The singles ward bishop in 1987 recalls hearing no information about anything physical or attempted physical assault.

Her story she gave to the Provo police does not match what was told in 1987. 

1) The legal term for rape, wasn't as well defined historically and differs state by state, so actually, there is ambiguity in the term.  Remember, that McKenna details that Bishop stopped because he couldn't get an erection. But there was penetration.

http://www.takepart.com/article/2016/06/29/state-rape-laws

https://www.circa.com/story/2017/02/06/politics/the-fbi-changed-its-definition-of-rape-but-some-states-still-dont-recognize-male-victims

2) The singles ward bishop is not giving the whole facts, and he would have been warned against making the church liable. (See CHI's current instructions as well as historic) Despite his media report where he said he didn't believe her, he continued to trust McKenna with his kids and they remained friends.  Believe me, he is not giving the whole story.

 

 

Edited September 5, 2018 by Abulafia
Spelling

[Abulafia]

Reading your post now, Calm. Posted before seeing other posts.

[Calm]

10 minutes ago, provoman said:

Are you positive about that. Yes he apoligized - he didn't specify as to what, and after she accused him he stated he didn't remember it that way, he also repeatedlynsaid he was worried about what he has forgotten, but I do not recall him confessing to sexually assaulting Denson.

In the police interview, he confessed to asking a sister missionary to expose her breasts.  He thought it was Denson, but .Denson says it was the other victim.  I assume that counts as assault, someone can correct me if the law defines it differently.

In the transcript, he denied it was rape.

The only sexual physical action he confessed iirc to in the transcript was giving a "frisky" backrub.  He presented the pprivate sessions as his attempt to counsel women who were coming to him with what amounted to PSTD or repressed memories surfacing.  He got into a story about his heroic efforts to get them professional help., one of several stories he featured in as a hero/martyr.

Edited September 5, 2018 by Calm

[Hamba Tuhan]

3 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

Believe me ...

On what grounds?

[mormondialoguethrowaway]

2 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

2) The singles ward bishop is not giving the whole facts, and he would have been warned against making the church liable.. . .believe me, he is not giving the whole story. 

That's quite a conspiracy you are inventing on-the-fly...  Not a sign of a good argument. 

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

Reading your post now, Calm. Posted before seeing other posts.

Take your time, got to call it a night and probably won't see it until afternoon.

[Abulafia]

Calm, I don't put too much weight in the fact that McKenna said she was going to kill the **. The police department didn't take it seriously either. It's the kind of thing you say when you are at the end of the line in trying to get justice for a grave historical wrongdoing imho. I still want to see what the Police Dept have, and I'm sad that they are holding on to the information on a weird technicality.

[Calm]

40 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Do you (or anyone else on the thread) know how many cases of sexual abuse by priesthood leaders the church has settled and kept secret through NDA’s? 

Do we have any idea how often it happens?

If we don't have an idea how often it happens, how do we know it is a significant problem?  (I do believe there should be a better reporting system for victims, .I don't believe there should be NDAs unless there is not enough evidence to prove abuse and thus it amounts solely to conflicting unsubstantiated claims or unless the victim asks for one).

[Calm]

21 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

Calm, I don't put too much weight in the fact that McKenna said she was going to kill the **. The police department didn't take it seriously either. It's the kind of thing you say when you are at the end of the line in trying to get justice for a grave historical wrongdoing imho. I still want to see what the Police Dept have, and I'm sad that they are holding on to the information on a weird technicality.

In this day and age of shootings, I take such very seriously.  I have been on the receiving end of death threats, it was terrifying even though I was certain it won't happen...that the guy was too lazy to make the effort, it is just so twisted to know someone is imagining my death even if it was fantasy.

Quote

It's the kind of thing you say when you are at the end of the line in trying to get justice for a grave historical wrongdoing imho.

I would like to see evidence this is even a somewhat common occurrence.  The people I know of who,had made death threats have done so for bizarre reasons (in my case, because I banned him from a message board like this one until he stopped annoying others posters by breaking some basic civil internet rules).

(was catching up on a last few posts, promise .I am done now...unless I can't sleep and am stupid enough to distract myself using the board)

Edited September 5, 2018 by Calm

[Abulafia]

2 minutes ago, mormondialoguethrowaway said:

That's quite a conspiracy you are inventing on-the-fly...  Not a sign of a good argument. 

Not a conspiracy at all.  The CHI is quite clear. *To avoid implicating the Church in legal matters to which it is not a party, leaders should avoid testifying in civil or criminal cases or other proceedings involving abuse.*

Btw, it's silly and looks bad to have the church use copyright legalities to make the CHI unavailable to the public.  It really should be in the public domain. 

[Abulafia]

Fair enough Calm. I live in a gun free country, so probably don't get the cultural nuance on this. But she wasn't taken seriously otherwise she would have been charged.  They did, however investigate her claims against Bishop, and McKenna praised them highly for their treatment of her.  

Edited September 5, 2018 by Abulafia

[mormondialoguethrowaway]

3 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

Not a conspiracy at all.  The CHI is quite clear. *To avoid implicating the Church in legal matters to which it is not a party, leaders should avoid testifying in civil or criminal cases or other proceedings involving abuse.*

None of that applies.  The church is a party in the lawsuit, and he isn't testifying to a court.

It's a conspiracy to suggest the singles ward bishop in 1987 took this CHI line as a directive, which has nothing to do with the media, as a reason to withhold information to the media. 

[Calm]

24 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

Fair enough Calm. I live in a gun free country, so probably don't get the cultural nuance on this. But she wasn't taken seriously otherwise she would have been charged.  They did, however investigate her claims against Bishop, and McKenna praised them highly for their treatment of her.  

One last post.  You are incorrect.  In 2010, the Pleasant Grove police did not investigate Bishop.  When they asked her about a gun, she informed them she didn't have one and it was a joke.  Iirc, the PG chief reported the reason they ignored the claims about Bishop was statue of limitations and they so informed her.  Also iirc, he said they did not have any contact with the Church, so local leaders might not have been aware she had denied having a gun and the PG Police were satisfied.

In 2017, Denson reported it to the BYU Police (not Provo).  They are the ones who investigated by interviewing her, interviewing Bishop (sending detectives out of state for both of them to interview in person), tracking down her old Spanish teacher, possibly other stuff I didn't read in their report.

Quote

The Church said it knew about the accusations in 2010 when the woman in question told her local church leaders in Pleasant Grove, Utah, that she had been sexually assaulted by the MTC president. According to the Church, it was immediately reported to the Pleasant Grove Police Department who interviewed the woman.

2News has learned that interaction actually resulted from an apparent threat made against the life of Bishop by his accuser. 2News obtained a Pleasant Grove police report from April 2010 claiming the accuser made the threat to a local LDS stake presidency. When they investigated, the accuser told police her threat was "along the lines of humor" and "was not meant as serious."

She was warned by the investigating officer and told not to confront Bishop, but no further action was taken against her or Bishop. Pleasant Grove Police told 2News the alleged sexual assault was not investigated because any incident would've taken place outside their jurisdiction and because the threat, and not the alleged assault, was the reason the Church contacted them.

https://kutv.com/news/local/lds-church-responds-to-allegations-of-sexual-assault-by-former-mission-president

I remember reading more of the PG police report, but can't find it.

Edited September 5, 2018 by Calm

[Abulafia]

Ah, ok. Thanks for the correction.  I've followed this closely since it came up, but didn't check back. Thanks. 

 

MD throwaway said:

"None of that applies.  The church is a party in the lawsuit, and he isn't testifying to a court.

It's a conspiracy to suggest the singles ward bishop in 1987 took this CHI line as a directive, which has nothing to do with the media, as a reason to withhold information to the media."

 

This covers it, imho.  "other proceedings involving abuse".  

 

Leavitt, according to McKenna, did believe her enough to arrange further investigation up the chain of authority, and felt her reliable enough that he continued a close friendship of trust with her, including caring for his kids.