Denson's Lawsuit Dismissed by Federal Judge

[Abulafia]

Whatever his memory now, this would have been a far more significant event for McKenna than for Leavitt.  So, for me, she is more likely to remember than he is, anyway.  

[Abulafia]

On New Name Noah, Mike Norton. Again, I have grown to respect him and his openness about his motives and methods.  As soon as he admitted that he too, as a child, had been sexually abused by an adult priesthood leader and close relative, I got it.  He portrays the church as a dangerous place to be, and wants to get everyone out, and when you think about it, walking in his shoes, for him it was. He wasn't the only child abused by this family member - who seems never to have confessed or if he has, has never been disciplined. He's a currently serving Mission President who Mike has openly and publicly named. I'm not sure if I am allowed to name him here.

 

 

Edited September 5, 2018 by Abulafia

[Abulafia]

This is the best timeline link I can find.

 

https://medium.com/@davidscoville/timeline-of-the-joseph-bishop-sexual-abuse-scandal-77f39be1ef3a

[Abulafia]

From the timeline

*After returning from her mission, the Survivor reports the sexual abuse incident to her Young Single Adult Ward Bishop, alleged to be Ron Leavitt. Leavitt, in March 2018, recalled that the woman “came to him and said [Joseph] Bishop abused her, taking her and another woman to a small basement room at the MTC and showed them pornography.” He says that he didn’t believe the Survivor and says that he didn’t report the abuse to higher church authorities or law enforcement.

 

And McKenna's response

 

However, according to the survivor, her bishop “arranged for her to speak with Asay, a member of the Quorum of the Seventy.” Asay told her that he would talk to Joseph Bishop.

 

McKenna has also noted in a FB post the involvement of Thomas S Monson, so I think this went all the way up. Nothing was done.  Thomas S Monson also had a son who was allegedly fired from a law firm for sexually inappropriate behaviour, who was then employed by Kirton McConkie.  So I think the prevalent attitude was to disbelieve women all round.  This is what happens in patriarchal systems imho.

[Calm]

You misunderstand Monson's involvement.

(Can't sleep, why not?)

while Denson was waiting for her visa to countries south, she describes herself as having an anxiety attack and having to leave her companions to go outside.  When asked why she had to leave, she was embarrassed about the anxiety attack and so told them there had been an attempted rape (don't get how that is less embarrassing myself).  Because she claimed rape, her mission president sent her back to Provo where she stayed with a family and attended therapy.  She highly disliked the therapist according to her account and refused to tell him anything even though he kept pushing for her to open up.  After her therapy, she needed to be cleared to go back out in the field.  She had an interview with .Elder Monson, to whom she said very little iirc. (Iirc, in the letter sent to the police she gave him a sentence).  She was sent out to Wisconsin.

Btw, What is the above if not pastoral and professional care...which she refused to make use of.

Only after her mission did she tell Leavitt something, which he said he kept to himself and she said was past on to higher ups until a meeting was arranged with Elder Acey.  So in terms of accusation, it went from Leavitt-intermediaries-Asay, assuming her claims are true.

Hard to disbelieve a woman who tells you little by her own account.

If Denson had only repeated the claim once to him as she says,.Leavitt might have seen it as a stress reaction to something, her upcoming marriage perhaps.  If he had known of the false rape claim during her mission which led to the interruption of her service, of her family life both before and after joining the Church, he might have assumed the accusation was a  result of whatever was troubling her rather than about what was contributing to her troubles

I would hope if he thought she was troubled, he would make an extra effort to stay friends with her so he could help her in some fashion.  Denson does not describe him as calling her to repentance for lies, sounds like she thought he believed her.  So he comes across as a nice guy who cared to treat her kindly to her face, but not enough to push out of his comfort zone to consider a well known leader watched porn with the sisters, had private sessions, and possibly other things..

After her temple marriage, if she no longer mentioned it (I don't recall her reporting she asked), Leavitt likely viewed her as maturing and getting past that from his view unfortunately silliness.  Maybe he thought she had a too vivid dream, some sort of crush she fantasized too far on, maybe she projected experiences with her stepfather onto Bishop.  Whatever, after several years later (she had married moved to .Japan, had kids iirc, Leavitt's kids went out to .Japan to among other things stay with Denson and her family.  My memory is the kids were around college age, maybe teens....so less babysitting and more pad to crash at I am guessing.

Edited September 5, 2018 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Abulafia said:

This is the best timeline link I can find.

 

https://medium.com/@davidscoville/timeline-of-the-joseph-bishop-sexual-abuse-scandal-77f39be1ef3a

The timeline was put up midlate March, not long after started and so missed critical stuff and does not include info from Denson draft letter, misrepresents some of the descriptions of Bishop's comments, so not the best for full info.

Edited September 5, 2018 by Calm

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, Abulafia said:

So I think the prevalent attitude was to disbelieve women all round.  This is what happens in patriarchal systems imho.

This is precisely what the sister in our ward says too because we refuse to excommunicate a man whom the police cleared of any wrongdoing. It’s simultaneously lazy and reprehensible to lodge such an accusation, in my opinion. The sole reason I can even bring up what’s happened here is because I’ve worked hard to protect my anonymity on this message board. In real life, we quietly just bear such baseless accusations because we’re trying to protect everyone. 

[Abulafia]

Thanks Calm. I've had health issues thus lack of sleep. Appreciate your insights.

 

 

[Abulafia]

It would be great to have a better timeline.

[Abulafia]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

This is precisely what the sister in our ward says too because we refuse to excommunicate a man whom the police cleared of any wrongdoing. It’s simultaneously lazy and reprehensible to lodge such an accusation, in my opinion. The sole reason I can even bring up what’s happened here is because I’ve worked hard to protect my anonymity on this message board. In real life, we quietly just bear such baseless accusations because we’re trying to protect everyone. 

Having served as a juror on a sex abuse case, it is hard to convict beyond reasonable doubt, even with a mountain of evidence..multiple victims, lost photographic evidence (police fault), medical and Family support service reports etc.. these are hard cases and I was pleased to see a church update which suggested the victim should be believed. 

Edited September 5, 2018 by Abulafia
Detail

[Abulafia]

Calm, I was under the impression that Elder Monson knew about Bishop.  Let me get back to you.  I'll ask McKenna to clarify. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

17 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

Having served as a juror on a sex abuse case, it is hard to convict beyond reasonable doubt, even with a mountain of evidence...

In the case I'm familiar with, there was no trial. The police concluded there was no evidence at all.

Quote

I was pleased to see a church update which suggested the victim should be believed. 

Reference, please.

[Abulafia]

Just travelling, but will find.

 

Sometimes there is no evidence. Just a he said/she said situation. That's  another reason not to have one on one interviews with minors (less than 18). It protects all. 

[Abulafia]

Calm, McKenna clarified that you were correct. She needed to see Monson before returning to the field.

[Abulafia]

Did Asay sit on the information? 

[Abulafia]

Okay here it is.

 

"Abuse causes confusion, doubt, mistrust, and fear in the victims and sometimes inflicts physical injury. Most, but not all, allegations of abuse are true, and should be taken seriously and handled with great care. Abuse tends to become more severe over time. "

That's the nearest they have gotten to suggesting most abuse victims aren't lying.

 

https://www.lds.org/church/news/church-provides-updated-guidelines-for-preventing-and-responding-to-abuse?lang=eng

[rockpond]

6 hours ago, provoman said:

Are you positive about that. Yes he apoligized - he didn't specify as to what, and after she accused him he stated he didn't remember it that way, he also repeatedlynsaid he was worried about what he has forgotten, but I do not recall him confessing to sexually assaulting Denson.

Considering the Denson interview, the police interview, the second victim, and other corroborating witnesses, there seems sufficient evidence to call a disciplinary council. 

[provoman]

39 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Considering the Denson interview, the police interview, the second victim, and other corroborating witnesses, there seems sufficient evidence to call a disciplinary council. 

You posted he admitted to sexually assaulting Denson, I responded directly to that claim of yours. So are you sure he admitted to sexual assault on Denson?

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Abulafia said:

Calm, I was under the impression that Elder Monson knew about Bishop.  Let me get back to you.  I'll ask McKenna to clarify. 

You know McKenna? Have her come on here, as long as it can be all around respectful. She could clear up so much. I hear she's going to be speaking to Shawn McRaney on his show Heart of the Matter coming up as well. 

[provoman]

1 hour ago, Abulafia said:

Calm, McKenna clarified that you were correct. She needed to see Monson before returning to the field.

I think you will find that users of this board have thoroughly discussed all the available information on Denson's claims. I also think you will find that we keep each other grounded to the available facts.

[provoman]

8 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

You know McKenna? Have her come on here, as long as it can be all around respectful. She could clear up so much. I hear she's going to be speaking to Shawn McRaney on his show Heart of the Matter coming up as well. 

I do not think that is a good idea. Hopefully her attorney asked her "please do not discuss this until the case is over"

I think it would be a disservice to her, to even suggest that she openly discuss a pending lawsuit.

[smac97]

4 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

This is precisely what the sister in our ward says too because we refuse to excommunicate a man whom the police cleared of any wrongdoing.

I think that sister fundamentally misunderstands the nature of church discipline.  

4 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

It’s simultaneously lazy and reprehensible to lodge such an accusation, in my opinion.

I think it's mostly an emotional/retributive attitude.  It also reflects, again, a very limited perspective on how church discipline works.  The Church is not an investigative agency.  It relies heavily on the individual to confess wrongdoing.  In the absence of that, the Church's ability to gather evidence and investigate into the private lives of its members is quite limited.

To be frank, it seems decidedly odd to see people criticize the Church for not being sufficiently nosy and intrusive, particularly when contrasted against other criticisms that the Church is too nosy and intrusive.

I am reminded here of D&C 134:10:

Quote

We believe that all religious societies have a right to deal with their members for disorderly conduct, according to the rules and regulations of such societies; provided that such dealings be for fellowship and good standing; but we do not believe that any religious society has authority to try men on the right of property or life, to take from them this world’s goods, or to put them in jeopardy of either life or limb, or to inflict any physical punishment upon them. They can only excommunicate them from their society, and withdraw from them their fellowship.

The Church has, by its own doctrine, disclaimed any authority to "punish" or discipline its members except to place limitations on, or to terminate, membership.  That's it.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Abulafia]

21 minutes ago, provoman said:

I do not think that is a good idea. Hopefully her attorney asked her "please do not discuss this until the case is over"

I think it would be a disservice to her, to even suggest that she openly discuss a pending lawsuit.

I agree. And to clarify, McKenna has many Facebook friends. I'm just one of them.  I do however feel a connection to her as I served as a Sister Missionary just before she did and have two friends who were abused by their LDS fathers, neither of which were ever disciplined and horrifically one was going to be sent home from her mission because it was *her fault*.  Thank goodness  someone in the church hierarchy saw sense and she was allowed to finish her mission.

[ALarson]

1 hour ago, rockpond said:

Considering the Denson interview, the police interview, the second victim, and other corroborating witnesses, there seems sufficient evidence to call a disciplinary council. 

It's amazing to me that there has never been a disciplinary court called for him.  Do we know what his membership status is?

[Thinking]

12 minutes ago, ALarson said:

It's amazing to me that there has never been a disciplinary court called for him.  Do we know what his membership status is?

Apparently the Church does have a version of the statute of limitations.

Quote

If a member voluntarily confesses a serious transgression that was committed long ago and his faithfulness and service in the intervening years have demonstrated full reformation and repentance, a disciplinary council often is unnecessary (CHI Book 1 Section 10)