Denson's Lawsuit Dismissed by Federal Judge

[provoman]

7 minutes ago, rockpond said:

The audio recording of Denson's meeting with Bishop, as I've stated already.  That's the response to your CFR.

Nope, you dont get make a affirmatuve statement, and not provide the statement. It is not up to me to spread your deliberate misinformation.

You can edit or delete your affirmative statement, or I can report you for failure to honor a CFR. 

[Thinking]

28 minutes ago, smac97 said:

If she has not been a member for an extended period, then a lack of pastoral care would be expected, would it not?

It seems to me that the Church would want to provide pastoral care to a victim regardless of membership status.

[smac97]

2 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Quote

That's good for you, but you could understand why other people might think that a person who has threatened to commit murder, and whose past behavior also includes identity theft, false rape claims, insurance scams, and using lies and deceit to secretly record a private discussion, and who sensationalizes and publicizes her private life (even when doing so is irrational and unreasonable), etc., is probably not in a good state of mind to meet with an apostle.  There would be no good faith on her part.  None.  Just grist for her to further her animosity toward the Church.

It's more than that, though.  It is one of many indications that she is a deeply disturbed person.  

In the absence of good faith, and reasonableness and civility, no meeting would be appropriate.  Her behavior last Sunday demonstrates that she presently lacks these things.

Thanks,

-Smac

Yes... and Bishop's past behavior includes sexual misconduct likely perpetrated against at least two women within his priesthood leadership.

Nobody is justifying or excusing Bishop's purported misconduct.  We actually have very little information about how many people he abused.  It seems clear he abused Ms. Denson in some way.  According to his statement to the BYU police, there was another sister missionary whom he abused as well.  And according to Ron Leavitt, Ms. Denson claimed that there was another sister missionary in the basement with her when Bishop showed them some pornography.  And there is a second sister missionary in the recording Denson did.  So that is two, three or four victims that we know about.  And given the secrecy and proclivity to recidivism that is common to this sort of misconduct, it is not unreasonable to surmise that there were more victims who have not come forward.

But that is neither here nor there.  As pertaining to Ms. Denson, she lacks the civility, decorum and good faith to meet with an apostle.  And there is ongoing litigation, so there's that too.

Thanks,

-Smac

[The Nehor]

4 minutes ago, Thinking said:

It seems to me that the Church would want to provide pastoral care to a victim regardless of membership status.

If they seek it out, probably. I really think there would be strong objections if we sought out lists of sexual assault victims and then contacted them all offering pastoral care and rightly so.

[jpv]

5 minutes ago, provoman said:

Nope, you dont get make a affirmatuve statement, and not provide the statement. It is not up to me to spread your deliberate misinformation.

You can edit or delete your affirmative statement, or I can report you for failure to honor a CFR. 

Bishop is the source. He stated in the recording (in his words) that he had "molested" a sister missionary while he was MTC president and that he is a "sexual predator." He also stated on-record to BYUPD that he asked a sister to expose her breasts to him at the MTC.

It's deeply disconcert if you're playing CFR-war in spite of these first-hand admissions aren't clear enough. 

[The Nehor]

16 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

Kelly Clark argued..

"The  Very  Real  Power  of  Non-monetary  Gestures

While  we  primarily  measure  civil  justice  in  this  society  through monetary  awards  and  verdicts,  it  is  also  true  that  non-monetary elements  of  settlements  can  have  an  extraordinarily  healing  impact on  child sexual  abuse  survivors.    Here  are  just  a  few  of the  nonmonetary  terms  we  have  negotiated,  or  attempted  to  negotiate,  for our  clients:

 

1.  An Apology

Believe  it  or  not,  I  have  never  gotten  an  unequivocal  apology for  any  of my  clients  from  the  Archdiocese  of Portland  (or  from any  Archdiocese  for  that matter),  from  the  Latter-Day  Saints Church,  from  the  Seventh Day  Adventist  Church,  or  from  the  Boy Scouts  of  America.    

Oh,  they  will  agree  to  letters  of  regret,  they  will agree to  letters  acknowledging  the  victim’s  pain  and suffering,  or the  wrongness  of  the  abuse.   But  I  have  not  yet  been  able  to  get  an institutional  official to  say:  “As  a representative  of  this  institution,  I apologize  profoundly  to  you for  what  our  man  did to  you.   It  was wrong,  he  betrayed  you  and betrayed  your  trust.   And,  because  he represented  us,  we  betrayed  you and violated  your  trust.   I apologize  and  am  so  sorry.”   Why  is  that  so  difficult?   Governments get  it—governments are  issuing  apologies  all  the  time,  to individuals  or  peoples  wronged  throughout  history, why can't spiritual and  moral  leaders  get  it? "

Because it is a common tactic in police interrogations or interviews to convince the suspect that an apology would help and that apology is then used as a written confession? I was told by my lawyer that after a car crash apologizing that the whole stupid thing happened without confessing actual guilt was a mistake as it could be construed as a confession. I am sure church lawyers know the same thing. Governments have greater legal protections against being sued for these things.

[rockpond]

13 minutes ago, provoman said:

Nope, you dont get make a affirmatuve statement, and not provide the statement. It is not up to me to spread your deliberate misinformation.

You can edit or delete your affirmative statement, or I can report you for failure to honor a CFR. 

He confessed in the audio recording.  That's the answer to your CFR.

[smac97]

6 minutes ago, Thinking said:

It seems to me that the Church would want to provide pastoral care to a victim regardless of membership status.

Well, yes and no.  We can and should help others, but those "others" have to be receptive to the help.  

How long has it been since Ms. Denson resigned her membership?  We don't know.

Has she requested "pastoral care" from the Church?  We don't know.

What is her relationship with her local bishop and stake president?  We don't know.

Has her bishop or stake president offered her "pastoral care?"  We don't know.

What sort of "pastoral care" would be helpful to Ms. Denson?  We don't know.

Is she open to the sort of "pastoral care" that a bishop or stake president would likely provide (reading scriptures, prayer, attending church, obedience to the commandments, assistance with payment for mental health counseling, etc.)?  We don't know.

Has she exhibited hostility to the Church?  Yes.  Big time.

Has she threatened to murder a member of the Church?  Yes.

Has she behaved civilly and reasonably toward the Church and its members?  Nope.  Her stunt this last weekend really demonstrates what she thinks of us.

And so it goes.  We know very little about what the Church has or had not done relative to Ms. Denson.  And Ms. Denson is not the most reliable person in the world.  Plus she is demonstrating manifestly boorish and inappropriate behavior toward us as a community.  Given such circumstances, I don't think any of us are situated to pass judgment on the Church's "pastoral care" of McKenna Denson.

Thanks,

-Smac

[rockpond]

6 minutes ago, jpv said:

Bishop is the source. He stated in the recording (in his words) that he had "molested" a sister missionary while he was MTC president and that he is a "sexual predator." He also stated on-record to BYUPD that he asked a sister to expose her breasts to him at the MTC.

It's deeply disconcert if you're playing CFR-war in spite of these first-hand admissions aren't clear enough. 

@provoman

I'll add this quote as well from MormonNewsroom.org:

"On Wednesday, the Church, along with media outlets, received the unredacted police report from BYU Police, which included an admission of inappropriate sexual conduct. We are committed to bringing accountability for what has occurred." --https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/statement-former-mission-president-alleged-abuse-joseph-l-bishop-march-2018

But, good on your for coming to Bishop's defense.

 

[rockpond]

10 minutes ago, smac97 said:

As pertaining to Ms. Denson, she lacks the civility, decorum and good faith to meet with an apostle.  And there is ongoing litigation, so there's that too.

Thanks,

-Smac

Good point... we should demand "civility, decorum, and good faith" from victims of sexual abuse at the hands of priesthood leaders before allowing an apostle to meet with them.  Maybe we can add that to the CHI.

[provoman]

6 minutes ago, rockpond said:

He confessed in the audio recording.  That's the answer to your CFR.

He did not confess to sexually assaulting Denson.

The CFR still stands, if he confessed to sexually assaulting, you could easily quote his confession.

[provoman]

11 minutes ago, rockpond said:

@provoman

I'll add this quote as well from MormonNewsroom.org:

"On Wednesday, the Church, along with media outlets, received the unredacted police report from BYU Police, which included an admission of inappropriate sexual conduct. We are committed to bringing accountability for what has occurred." --https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/statement-former-mission-president-alleged-abuse-joseph-l-bishop-march-2018

But, good on your for coming to Bishop's defense.

 

 

Why is it that keeping a discussion honest and grounded in verifiable fact is so offensive to you? 

Edited September 5, 2018 by provoman

[HappyJackWagon]

23 minutes ago, provoman said:

Nope, you dont get make a affirmatuve statement, and not provide the statement. It is not up to me to spread your deliberate misinformation.

You can edit or delete your affirmative statement, or I can report you for failure to honor a CFR. 

Instead of threats of reporting him, maybe you should apologize now that you see how silly your CFR was. The admission was common knowledge, but as required as part of your attempted defense of Bishop, your CFR has been answered.

*Maybe next time you can skip the threats.

[smac97]

4 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Quote

As pertaining to Ms. Denson, she lacks the civility, decorum and good faith to meet with an apostle.  And there is ongoing litigation, so there's that too.

Thanks,

-Smac

Good point... we should demand "civility, decorum, and good faith" from victims of sexual abuse at the hands of priesthood leaders before allowing an apostle to meet with them.  Maybe we can add that to the CHI.

We should expect "civility, decorum, and good faith" from someone meeting with an apostle.  

Instead, I think we could expect to see from Ms. Denson . . . pretty much the same sort of behavior as we saw from her over the weekend.  

Thanks,

-Smac

[rockpond]

1 minute ago, provoman said:

 

Why it that keeping a discussion honest and grounded in verifiable fact is so offensive to you? 

Your CFR has been answered multiple times over including by a source from the Church itself.

 

[smac97]

3 minutes ago, provoman said:

Why it that keeping a discussion honest and grounded in verifiable fact is so offensive to you? 

I encourage you to not make this discussion personal.

We all slip up on this, including me.  So I think it helps for us to keep tabs on each other.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Avatar4321 said:

I'm not reasonably persuaded by anonymous victims. And from what I understand about his "confession" he has some issues with his memory..

not exactly a smoking gun.

I'm not convinced

The Church was convinced enough to the point of announcing her existence, imo.

In the transcript, he provides a number of coherent stories---some even before he knew that Denson was there to accuse him---that point to unhealthy relationships with his wives (last one had divorced him, was going to allegedly remarry him prior to this coming out).  The private sessions are strongly confirmed by him, but also by a former MTC instructor who remembered Denson being called out of class.

Denson knew details of his private life he then confirmed with additional, explanatory details.

My experiences with my mother the last four years makes me hesitant to fully commit to his stories being accurate because people have been telling me I have been blowing her dementia way up, but it turns out that it has been worse than I knew and she is completely forgetting encounters with people and creating very reasonable, but very incorrect versions of the conversations she does remember.  Also stories she tells of the past have sounded fully coherent unless one has previous knowledge. She was living on her own and if she hadn't had physical,disabilities that limited her movement, she would have been caring completely for herself as far as I can tell, so the fact that at least soon after the story broke Bishop appeared to be living on his own is not indicative of his memory capability to me (a reporter went to his home to interview him, he was friendly until he learned the purpose and then asked the reporter to leave or shut the door...can't remember if he had initially invited him in or not).

Still I am fairly certain that Bishop was actually remembering and not creating at least some of the memories of the private sessions due to his tone, lack of hesitancy, etc.  Considering he was trashing his late first wife during these times, blaming her for his problems (whatever those were as he never got specific), he did not fill me with confidence in his moral character.  He did not sound to me as solely a man who held himself to a high standard of purity as his son claimed, but a man who was used to blaming others for his problems.

That interview says nothing to actual assault (if that is the legal term, if not abuse) from him however.  The police interview takes care of that for me, even if he assumed it was Denson...most likely because she had accused him so recently and her face was in his mind.

His son confirmed the backrub with the other sister missionary, though he blamed it on the young woman pressuring his father into doing it.

So my opinion is he got off telling his sexual exploits and hardship to young women and he was willing to place himself in inappropriate one on one situations even knowing it was dangerous (what was he doing alone with the other sister missionary at his home, especially if his son is right and she had pushed him multiple times to give her a backrub, which would have been according to various church standards as inappropriate physical contact between a married man and a younger woman, a mission Pres. and a missionary?).

Edited September 5, 2018 by Calm

[smac97]

3 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Instead of threats of reporting him, maybe you should apologize now that you see how silly your CFR was. The admission was common knowledge, but as required as part of your attempted defense of Bishop, your CFR has been answered.

*Maybe next time you can skip the threats.

Yes.

And maybe next time you could skip the cheap shot about an "attempted defense of Bishop."  Nobody is defending Bishop's misconduct here.  We are evaluating the type and extent of it.

Thanks,

-Smac

[The Nehor]

12 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Good point... we should demand "civility, decorum, and good faith" from victims of sexual abuse at the hands of priesthood leaders before allowing an apostle to meet with them.  Maybe we can add that to the CHI.

We should also add to the scriptures that having something bad happen to you is license to be an $&#*$&#* to anyone you like for the rest of your life so we can get her exalted.

[provoman]

11 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Your CFR has been answered multiple times over including by a source from the Church itself.

 

more misrepresentation...good grief.

Edited September 5, 2018 by provoman

[smac97]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

The Church was to the point of announcing her existence.

In the transcript, he provides a number of coherent stories---some even before he knew that Denson was there to accuse him---that point to unhealthy relationships with his wives (last one had divorced him, was going to allegedly remarry him prior to this coming out).  The private sessions are strongly confirmed by him, but also by a former MTC instructor who remembered Denson being called out of class.

But I don't think the former MTC instructor remembers her being called out of class by Joseph Bishop.  So the corroboration is not as strong as it could be.  

1 minute ago, Calm said:

Denson knew details of his private life he then confirmed.

Yes, this part of her narrative seems pretty strong.

1 minute ago, Calm said:

My experiences with my mother the last four years makes me hesitant to fully commit to his stories being accurate because people have been telling me I have been blowing her dementia way up, but it turns out that it has been worse than I knew and she is completely forgetting encounters with people and creating very reasonable, but very incorrect versions of the conversations she does remember.  Also stories she tells of the past have sounded fully coherent unless one has previous knowledge. She was living on her own and if she hadn't had physical,disabilities that limited her movement, she would have been caring completely for herself as far as I can tell, so the fact that at least soon after the story broke Bishop appeared to be living on his own is not indicative of his memory capability to me (a reporter went to his home to interview him, he was friendly until he learned the purpose and then asked the reporter to leave or shut the door...can't remember if he had initially invited him in or not).

Yes, these are some solid points as to the weakness of Bishop's statements, both in the recording and, to some extent, to the BYU police.

1 minute ago, Calm said:

Still I am fairly certain that Bishop was actually remembering and not creating at least some of the memories of the private sessions due to his tone, lack of hesitancy, etc.  Considering he was trashing his late first wife during these times, blaming her for his problems (whatever those were as he never got specific), he did not fill me with confidence in his moral character.  He did not sound to me as solely a man who held himself to a high standard of purity, but a man who was used to blaming others for his problems.

Yes, that is a reasonable inference, but not a conclusive or definitive one.

I have an elderly friend whose "filters" have been slipping for some years.  He has said some surprising things, which I am a bit hesitant to attribute to weaknesses "in his moral character," but more to the slippage of his filters.  We all of us control what we say.  When that control slips due to mental infirmity - particularly incident to old age - then we need to be careful in judging the person.

In this case, however, we have some pretty substantial evidence of misconduct external to Joseph Bishop's recollections.  Ms. Denson's allegations appear to have some merit.  And there is a second victim.  And some corroborating/circumstantial evidence (Ms. Denson knew about the basement, and she knew private details of Joseph Bishop's life, and the MTC instructor remembers her being called out of class, and Ron Leavitt's hearsay recollection, etc.).  These cumulative factors are, for me, more persuasive than Joseph Bishop's recollections.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Calm]

 

3 minutes ago, smac97 said:

These cumulative factors are, for me, more persuasive than Joseph Bishop's recollections.

Thanks,

-Smac

Same here.

[Calm]

Is asking someone to expose themselves sexual assault legally speaking?  Serious question.

Bishop's confession said nothing of touching the woman at that time as reported.

----

On the separate issue of what he confessed to Denson...

Giving a woman a backrub if she asked would not be assault either, even if abuse imo (due to her unstable mentality as she was in his home because of a suicide attempt as well as his position of authority).

Edited September 5, 2018 by Calm

[provoman]

21 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Instead of threats of reporting him, maybe you should apologize now that you see how silly your CFR was. The admission was common knowledge, but as required as part of your attempted defense of Bishop, your CFR has been answered.

*Maybe next time you can skip the threats.

It shows a defect of reasoning when challenging the truthfulness of a statement is defending a person, thanks for showing your true colors

Edited September 5, 2018 by provoman

[rockpond]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

Is asking someone to expose themselves sexual assault legally speaking?  Serious question.

One of our attorneys here will have to answer but I think it is also important to include that he wasn't just some random person who bumped into her on the street.  Bishop was in a position of authority over Denson, he confessed to taking her to a private room and then asked her to show him her breasts.

That is sexual assault in my book.