Denson's Lawsuit Dismissed by Federal Judge

[Abulafia]

So, Smac, let's say, you were her lawyer, and you absolutely believed her. How would you fight the case?

 

Here's the Washington Post article.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/national/religion/woman-suing-over-rape-by-mormon-leader-speaks-at-this-church/2018/09/04/4ed6db98-b07b-11e8-8b53-50116768e499_story.html

Edited September 5, 2018 by Abulafia
Spelling

[smac97]

22 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

And we also know that the two women who sought damages were vulnerable.

But nobody else has accused Bishop of forcible rape.  

Quote

The sister missionary who stayed at Bishop's house was suicidal, and he used that vulnerability to engage in sexual misconduct. 

But not forcible rape.

The "profile" of Joseph Bishop, so far as we have one, does not include the use of violence or force.  Manipulation, yes.  Gross abuse of trust, yes.  But not violence or force.  As to that, the only person who has made that claim is McKenna Denson.

And as we have seen, McKenna Denson's credibility is poor.

That doesn't excuse Joseph Bishop if he showed her pornography and spoke with her about inappropriate topics, per Leavitt's hearsay account.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited September 5, 2018 by smac97

[smac97]

16 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Quote

According to Denson, Leavitt acted appropriately and got her hooked up with Elder Asay.  So why are people who believe what she said condemning him for his treatment of her in 1987?

If Leavitt did believe her and he did get her a meeting with Elder Asay than he is now lying about it to discredit her and protect the Church. 

"If" being the operative word there.

Meanwhile, if Leavitt is telling the truth, then . . . Leavitt is telling the truth.

So Leavitt's credibility as a witness becomes important, doesn't it?  But it won't do to label him a liar simply because his statements differ from Ms. Denson's.

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

13 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

Okay, for me, it depends on the definition of rape.

Not really.  

13 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

I wish the definitions were universally uniform. But over and above that, I believe her. I've read Smac's views on whether the fraud case has merit. It will be interesting to see how it pans out. I absolutely think more needs to be done to protect victims and bring the abusers to justice for their crimes. 

The Church's guidelines are really quite good and reducing the changes for a predator to use a position in the Church to gain access to a victim.

It sure would be nice if the critics and opponents of the Church would acknowledge that.

13 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

So, the initial mistake McKenna made was to follow the priesthood advice at the time which was to talk to a leader rather than the police.  Police first. 

CFR, please, that "the priesthood advice at the time [] was to talk to a leader rather than the police."

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

13 minutes ago, bluebell said:

False rape claims might fit the profile but fitting the profile for someone who was raped does not change the fact that that she lied about being raped.  Clearly, we cannot use 'fitting the profile' as a reason to believe her, because she has already proven that she cannot always be believed when it comes to her accusations of rape, whether she fits the profile or not.

Yep.  The suggestion that a false rape claim bolsters Denson's credibility is simply unreasonable.  It doesn't.

A false rape claim may fit the profile of an abuse victim.  But it also fits the profile of a false claimant.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited September 5, 2018 by smac97

[Danzo]

1 hour ago, Abulafia said:

It has everything to do with how a jury might view a person claiming to have been abused, who has a criminal history. You freely admit that for you, her background makes her less credible.  I'm saying her background actually makes her more credible and fits the profile of someone who has experienced sexual abuse.

so the more one lies, the more likely you are to believe them.

 

Lying is the path to credibility?

 

You live in a different world than I do.

 

[Danzo]

1 hour ago, Abulafia said:

Her behaviour fits the profile of someone who has experienced sexual trauma.  

I am sorry, but I know victims of sexual trauma, some quite well, and they do not fit that profile. 

[rockpond]

32 minutes ago, smac97 said:

But it won't do to label him a liar simply because his statements differ from Ms. Denson's.

Thanks,

-Smac

I wasn't... I was answering Calm's question.

[Abulafia]

53 minutes ago, Danzo said:

I am sorry, but I know victims of sexual trauma, some quite well, and they do not fit that profile. 

And that's great.  I also know 4 victims of sexual trauma personally, and not one has had an easy life.  That's what makes sexual abuse by a family member or trusted leader so heinous.  The effects are long term.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/when-child-abuse-victims-go-on-to-commit-crimes-societys-sympathy-runs-out-10431018.html

 

 

"It is not hard for anyone with even a modicum of empathy to see that childhood sexual abuse can lead to feelings of betrayal, guilt, powerlessness, low self-esteem, poor mental and physical health, as well as difficulties in forming relationships. For many, the abuse itself may have involved being forced or coerced into drug taking or criminal activity. Others who have experienced such trauma may turn to drugs or alcohol as coping mechanisms.

It is not surprising that many girls and boys who suffer abuse should go onto to have very difficult and troubled lives; if anything, it is surprising that any do not."

 

All this can be backed by research papers.

Edited September 5, 2018 by Abulafia
Minor amendment

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

And that's great.  I also know 4 victims of sexual trauma personally, and not one has had an easy life.  That's what makes sexual abuse by a family member or trusted leader so heinous.  The effects are long term.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/when-child-abuse-victims-go-on-to-commit-crimes-societys-sympathy-runs-out-10431018.html

 

 

"It is not hard for anyone with even a modicum of empathy to see that childhood sexual abuse can lead to feelings of betrayal, guilt, powerlessness, low self-esteem, poor mental and physical health, as well as difficulties in forming relationships. For many, the abuse itself may have involved being forced or coerced into drug taking or criminal activity. Others who have experienced such trauma may turn to drugs or alcohol as coping mechanisms.

It is not surprising that many girls and boys who suffer abuse should go onto to have very difficult and troubled lives; if anything, it is surprising that any do not."

 

All this can be backed by research papers.

Do you have stats on how many abuse victims make false abuse/assault/rape reports later in life?  Your comments have made me wonder.

Edited September 5, 2018 by Calm

[Abulafia]

Calm, this is the advice to members on lds.org

"

Victims of abuse should seek help immediately, normally from their bishop or branch president. His first responsibility is to help those who have been abused and to protect those who may be vulnerable to future abuse.

Victims of abuse should be assured that they are not to blame for the harmful behavior of others. They do not need to feel guilt. If they have been a victim of rape or other sexual abuse, whether they have been abused by an acquaintance, a stranger, or even a family member, victims of sexual abuse are not guilty of sexual sin.

Victims of abuse can seek help from their priesthood leader to guide them through the process of emotional healing. Through the blessings of the gospel, victims of abuse can stop the cycle of abuse and be freed from the suffering they have experienced."

 

No. Victims of abuse should call 999 (here in the UK anyway). A crime has been committed.

 

 

[Abulafia]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

Do you have stats on how many abuse victims make false abuse/assault/rape reports later in life?  Your comments have made me wonder.

I did research this in the past, will check out.  

[Guest]

On August 13, 2018 at 1:49 PM, Tacenda said:

And what's up with having the federal judge have a stake in it such as his membership in the church. Easy to see how he was doing his duty of protecting the church, IMO. 

Except he didn't, he allowed the "fraud" portion go on! 

Edited September 6, 2018 by Bill "Papa" Lee

[Calm]

I can see how that can be interpreted as calling the bishop first rather than him being one of those called immediately.  I might be too practical of a person to not immediately go in my head to call police when thinking criminal and getting as much help from as many as feasible, so I read it as "don't forget to call the bishop" rather than call him first or only.

Edited September 5, 2018 by Calm

[Abulafia]

I have read in one research paper that states that victims of childhood sexual abuse are (statistically) significantly more likely to be raped as a teenager/young adult. 

[Abulafia]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

I can see how that can be interpreted as calling the bishop first rather than him being one of those called immediately.  I might be too practical of a person to not immediately go in my head to call police when thinking criminal and getting as much help from as many as feasible.

Calm, here's the link.

 

https://www.lds.org/topics/abuse?lang=eng

[smac97]

4 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

Calm, this is the advice to members on lds.org

"

Victims of abuse should seek help immediately, normally from their bishop or branch president. His first responsibility is to help those who have been abused and to protect those who may be vulnerable to future abuse.

I'm not sure this is intended to be an alternative to contacting the police.  The police investigate crimes.  They don't really provide much in the way of "help" to a victim.  Moreover, bishops are trained to handle allegations of abuse, which often (though not necessarily always) involves contacting the police.

So the counsel seems pretty sound.

4 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

Victims of abuse should be assured that they are not to blame for the harmful behavior of others.

Surely you do not find this problematic.

4 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

They do not need to feel guilt. If they have been a victim of rape or other sexual abuse, whether they have been abused by an acquaintance, a stranger, or even a family member, victims of sexual abuse are not guilty of sexual sin.

Surely you do not find this problematic.

4 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

Victims of abuse can seek help from their priesthood leader to guide them through the process of emotional healing. Through the blessings of the gospel, victims of abuse can stop the cycle of abuse and be freed from the suffering they have experienced."

Surely you do not find this problematic.

4 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

No. Victims of abuse should call 999 (here in the UK anyway). A crime has been committed.

The foregoing advice doesn't preclude calling 999/911.

People are often scared or reluctant to call the police.  A bishop can help in that.

Thanks,

-Smac

[provoman]

9 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

Calm, this is the advice to members on lds.org

"

Victims of abuse should seek help immediately, normally from their bishop or branch president. His first responsibility is to help those who have been abused and to protect those who may be vulnerable to future abuse.

Victims of abuse should be assured that they are not to blame for the harmful behavior of others. They do not need to feel guilt. If they have been a victim of rape or other sexual abuse, whether they have been abused by an acquaintance, a stranger, or even a family member, victims of sexual abuse are not guilty of sexual sin.

Victims of abuse can seek help from their priesthood leader to guide them through the process of emotional healing. Through the blessings of the gospel, victims of abuse can stop the cycle of abuse and be freed from the suffering they have experienced."

 

No. Victims of abuse should call 999 (here in the UK anyway). A crime has been committed.

 

 

Are sure the number isn't

0118 999 881 999 119 725 3

[smac97]

On 8/13/2018 at 11:49 AM, Tacenda said:

And what's up with having the federal judge have a stake in it such as his membership in the church. Easy to see how he was doing his duty of protecting the church, IMO. 

Oi.  This is ugly.  Would you disparage a federal judge who is Jewish and who does not recuse from a lawsuit against a synagogue?  A black judge who doesn't recuse from a case involving a black litigant?  A gay judge who doesn't recuse from a case involving a gay person?

28 U.S. Code § 455(a) provides that "{a}ny justice, judge, or magistrate judge of the United States shall disqualify himself in any proceeding in which his impartiality might reasonably be questioned."

"Reasonably" being the key word there.

Black judges are not presumptively unfit to hear a lawsuit involving a lawsuit just because a party is black.

Gay judges are not presumptively unfit to hear a lawsuit involving a lawsuit just because a party is gay.

Jewish judges are not presumptively unfit to hear a lawsuit involving a lawsuit just because a party is Jewish.

Femal judges are not presumptively unfit to hear a lawsuit involving a lawsuit just because a party is female.

This is ugly.

-Smac

[Danzo]

23 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

And that's great.  I also know 4 victims of sexual trauma personally, and not one has had an easy life.  That's what makes sexual abuse by a family member or trusted leader so heinous.  The effects are long term.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/when-child-abuse-victims-go-on-to-commit-crimes-societys-sympathy-runs-out-10431018.html

 

 

"It is not hard for anyone with even a modicum of empathy to see that childhood sexual abuse can lead to feelings of betrayal, guilt, powerlessness, low self-esteem, poor mental and physical health, as well as difficulties in forming relationships. For many, the abuse itself may have involved being forced or coerced into drug taking or criminal activity. Others who have experienced such trauma may turn to drugs or alcohol as coping mechanisms.

It is not surprising that many girls and boys who suffer abuse should go onto to have very difficult and troubled lives; if anything, it is surprising that any do not."

 

All this can be backed by research papers.

Not saying they didn't have a hard life. 

They suffered greatly due to their abuse.

They just didn't end up making up stories about fake abuse, committing fraud, etc. 

Getting abused doesn't give one license to do whatever they want afterword.

[Raingirl]

3 hours ago, Abulafia said:

It has everything to do with how a jury might view a person claiming to have been abused, who has a criminal history. You freely admit that for you, her background makes her less credible.  I'm saying her background actually makes her more credible and fits the profile of someone who has experienced sexual abuse.

Please share with us your professional credentials in the field that qualify you to make the declaration contained in your last sentence. 

[Tacenda]

9 hours ago, provoman said:

I do not think that is a good idea. Hopefully her attorney asked her "please do not discuss this until the case is over"

I think it would be a disservice to her, to even suggest that she openly discuss a pending lawsuit.

Totally didn't take that into account. Thanks!

[Jeanne]

6 hours ago, rockpond said:

One of our attorneys here will have to answer but I think it is also important to include that he wasn't just some random person who bumped into her on the street.  Bishop was in a position of authority over Denson, he confessed to taking her to a private room and then asked her to show him her breasts.

That is sexual assault in my book.

It is.  so a man thinketh..right?  What was in this man's heart other than anything defiling and lustful?

[smac97]

6 hours ago, rockpond said:

One of our attorneys here will have to answer but I think it is also important to include that he wasn't just some random person who bumped into her on the street.  Bishop was in a position of authority over Denson, he confessed to taking her to a private room and then asked her to show him her breasts.

That is sexual assault in my book.

Actually, that is not what either one of the claims happened.  Joseph Bishop apparently did this with some other sister missionary.

Awful doesn't begin to describe it.

-Smac

[Tacenda]

9 hours ago, rockpond said:

I'm with Abulafia on this... Leavitt's statements do not add up.

 

Plus, before the interview the church called him three times, I believe.