Dan Reynolds - Prophet

[HappyJackWagon]

Just now, kllindley said:

Yeah. I'm not going to drop it. It's a serious offense. 

I accept the CFR. I have 24 hours. I'll reach out to the individuals. 

Awesome. Thanks.

[hope_for_things]

11 hours ago, kllindley said:

So are you also inspired to silence any LGBT brothers and sisters who support the Church and sustain our leaders? Or just to use their stories without permission and take their words out of context?

Not sure what you're talking about, but you sound upset about something.  

[hope_for_things]

9 hours ago, Tacenda said:

There were several performers, and the crowd was enormous, lots of money was made for the support of the LGBTQ crowd, and I believe the concert definitely kept some of them from taking their lives. 

Thanks for sharing your on the ground experience Tacenda, and the great comments.  I was impressed by the Young's as well as getting Tim Cook, that was a big get.  And the governor's support as well.  You can tell, not only is the country paying attention, but that thoughtful people in Utah are paying attention.  All this attention shows just how out of step the Church currently is with that Nov 2015 policy.  I predict that it will  go down as one of the worst mistakes that church leaders make in the 21st century.  

[hope_for_things]

12 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Excuse me? For a minute I was totally lost, perhaps you were talking about something else, but it was the same HBO documentary I watched other day.... Whatever this guy does goes beyond my admiration but describing as "prophetic" is a little overkill. But I liked your post for sure.

Thanks, but why not prophetic?  I personally don't believe in the supernatural, so to me no human has access to special powers to see future events.  So prophetic to me is a broader definition that includes someone speaking truth in clear and powerful ways, someone critiquing the culture they are a part of in forward thinking way that has a real impact and that breaks through certain barriers that have existed.  A voice for a marginalized group, a voice of love and a voice that awakens everyday people.  I think Dan fits this definition.  

[Avatar4321]

16 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Last week I got to watch the Believer documentary and I also watched the LoveLoud concert (as broadcast live on Youtube this year).  And i can't shake how powerful the messages were to me.  The way Dan Reynolds has conducted himself and the messages that he's sending about how we need to treat our LGBTQ brothers and sisters have been truly inspirational. 

Another thing he did during the concert that I just found so powerful, was he talked about how he's seeing a counselor and how we should all see a counselor if we're struggling and that nobody should be ashamed of that, and how its an important resource and can help us to learn and grow.  I just loved how clear and open and breaking down of the stigmas that our society often has about really basic things like this.  I found it so refreshing.  He's not a man of sophisticated and eloquent speech, but his words speak to the regular person in such a clear and powerful way.  I was just so impressed by him and what I heard.  

The thought that came to mind is that what I'm hearing from Dan Reyolds is prophetic.  And in a time where prophesy from church leaders often seems completely absent, I was impressed that the prophetic speech I'm hearing is not coming from a religious leader, but a rock star.  I honestly feel this is true, and I wanted to share in case anyone else might have thoughts about it.  Thanks

No idea who he is.

 

Did he testify of Christ?

[hope_for_things]

13 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

No idea who he is.

A quick Google search could help  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Reynolds_(singer)

[Atheist Mormon]

47 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Thanks, but why not prophetic?  I personally don't believe in the supernatural, so to me no human has access to special powers to see future events.  So prophetic to me is a broader definition that includes someone speaking truth in clear and powerful ways, someone critiquing the culture they are a part of in forward thinking way that has a real impact and that breaks through certain barriers that have existed.  A voice for a marginalized group, a voice of love and a voice that awakens everyday people.  I think Dan fits this definition.  

It's OK to have a personal perspective.....So what if it is a little over the top😊.

[Avatar4321]

40 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

A quick Google search could help  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Reynolds_(singer)

Ah yeah

[hope_for_things]

Interesting post over at BCC today, the author makes these points about Biblical prophets that I think are quite relevant to this thread.  

Quote

There are two things to know about Old Testament prophets. They almost never represent the status quo. They come from the margins (or, at least, represent them). They aren’t directly associated with the temple, the legitimate source of spiritual authority in Ancient Isreal. The only prophet who is associated with the priests is Ezekiel, who prophesied in exile and separation from the temple and who prophesied of its destruction.

The other thing to know is that they didn’t tell the people comfortable truths. Rather, they discomfited the people at every opportunity. Isaiah prophesied of a glorious day to come, but only after Israel had been scattered and nearly destroyed. Jeremiah told the people that God had rejected the covenant with Israel and walked around wearing a yoke to symbolize their coming captivity. Ezekiel ate bread baked with poop to symbolize the quality of life Israel could expect in exile. These weren’t men inclined to tell you anything but hard truths, meant to make you repent or face the consequences. These things do not make you popular.

https://bycommonconsent.com/2018/08/03/fox-news-and-false-prophets/

The author then critiques FoxNews and its pandering to the conservative crowd as being a false prophet.  I wonder which definition for prophet is a better fit for current LDS leaders?  

[Calm]

14 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Not sure what you're talking about, but you sound upset about something.  

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/70764-lds-church-donates-25k-to-affirmation-re-suicide-prevention-training/?do=findComment&comment=1209835481

 

[clarkgoble]

8 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Interesting post over at BCC today, the author makes these points about Biblical prophets that I think are quite relevant to this thread.  

https://bycommonconsent.com/2018/08/03/fox-news-and-false-prophets/

The author then critiques FoxNews and its pandering to the conservative crowd as being a false prophet.  I wonder which definition for prophet is a better fit for current LDS leaders?  

It's easy to pick out false prophets you already vehemently disagree with. It's a bit harder to pick out the false prophets that are telling you what you want to hear. I'd be more sympathetic to the story if it were a conservative criticizing Fox. (Heck, I'm conservative and will do it) This comes across like a liberal doing it but somehow never criticizing false prophets on their own side. Heck, again I'll say all cable TV is pretty much false prophecy caught up on a focus of the narratives that generate the most controversy and thus ratings from those who agree with the angle being pushed. The best thing for Fox was also the best thing for MSNBC and CNN. In fact their ratings are up much more than Fox's. Yet somehow we get hours and hours of minutae on the latest Mueller stuff and almost no information on nuances of policy and basically little to no international news. Even Costas at CNN admits they stopped covering global warming because it got bad ratings. And that's the more liberal CNN and not Fox where you'd expect that sort of thing.

So yes, Fox says anything anti-Trump is "fake news" and it's akin to the false prophets saying Egypt will support Israel against Babylon. Right up until when the temple is sacked, the sacred relics and thousands of people carried off to Babylon, and Zedekiah installed as King. But does that stop them? No. They do it again. But at the same time those saying we know Trump is treasonous and sure to be impeached are doing the same thing. Fox will say the tax cuts will pay for themselves rather than raise the debt they warned about just a few years earlier. Yet MSNBC prophets will talk about medicare for all by the "easy" path of demanding a 40% cut in charges by doctors and hospital and neglecting that even that would double taxes to break even. It's all sophistry. 

Give me at least the pundits who sweat the details. They may be imperfect, and because they don't have easy answers they're disliked, but even the ones I disagree with at least explain what's necessary. Maybe if we had more of those we'd reach compromises. Heck, imagine if 25 years ago liberals worried about global warming would have worked with conservatives wanting corporate tax cuts and made a carbon tax offset by corporate cuts.  What if liberals worried about global warming and pollution from coal and oil had worked with conservatives to have nuclear power produce 80% of our power? There were lots of possible compromises that neither side wanted. 

Of course I'm getting off the religion topic now. But then so was BCC despite appearances.

[The Nehor]

I am not sire people understand what a “prophet” and “prophecy” even are anymore.

[Hamba Tuhan]

On 8/3/2018 at 8:30 AM, hope_for_things said:

I think the scriptural examples of prophets really support what I'm hearing from Dan.

I think you're absolutely right!

I find this example from the Book of Helaman pretty much spot on:

Quote

But behold, if a man shall come among you and shall say: Do this, and there is no iniquity; do that and ye shall not suffer; yea, he will say: Walk after the pride of your own hearts; yea, walk after the pride of your eyes, and do whatsoever your heart desireth—and if a man shall come among you and say this, ye will receive him, and say that he is a prophet.

 

Edited August 4, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[HappyJackWagon]

On ‎8‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 9:06 AM, kllindley said:

Yeah. I'm not going to drop it. It's a serious offense. 

I accept the CFR. I have 24 hours. I'll reach out to the individuals. 

any updates?

@kllindley

[hope_for_things]

6 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

On 8/2/2018 at 4:30 PM, hope_for_things said:

I think the scriptural examples of prophets really support what I'm hearing from Dan.

I think you're absolutely right!

I find this example from the Book of Helaman pretty much spot on:

Quote

But behold, if a man shall come among you and shall say: Do this, and there is no iniquity; do that and ye shall not suffer; yea, he will say: Walk after the pride of your own hearts; yea, walk after the pride of your eyes, and do whatsoever your heart desireth—and if a man shall come among you and say this, ye will receive him, and say that he is a prophet.

 

I have a feeling you’re trying to use that scripture to justify bigotry towards LGBTQ people.  I hope not though.  

[hope_for_things]

14 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

t's easy to pick out false prophets you already vehemently disagree with. It's a bit harder to pick out the false prophets that are telling you what you want to hear. I'd be more sympathetic to the story if it were a conservative criticizing Fox. (Heck, I'm conservative and will do it) This comes across like a liberal doing it but somehow never criticizing false prophets on their own side.

I don’t know what the political or religious leanings of the BCC author are.  I can see what you’re saying, but I think the fact that Dan was on the other side of this issue earlier in his life gives him more credibility to critique the positions he use to hold himself and the culture he grew up in.  

Also, the way he’s approaching this and making great strides to continue to be respectful to his family and to Mormonism.  It’s a very difficult thing to do on such a charged subject.  

 

[Stargazer]

33 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I have a feeling you’re trying to use that scripture to justify bigotry towards LGBTQ people.  I hope not though.  

This is Hamba's thing to reply to, but I find myself quite annoyed at this.  I have a feeling you're reading bigotry into something that has none at all!  For what reason I cannot say, but for crying out loud, the words of the scripture are, or should be, crystal clear, including what Hamba is using it to say.

If Reynolds has said that a little premarital sex between consenting adults in love with each other is just peachy keen, which he has, and everyone is nodding earnestly at his wisdom, which they are, despite everything the scriptures say about that, then that is a perfect illustration of the Helaman quote:

"But behold, if a man shall come among you and shall say: Do this, and there is no iniquity; do that and ye shall not suffer; yea, he will say: Walk after the pride of your own hearts; yea, walk after the pride of your eyes, and do whatsoever your heart desireth—and if a man shall come among you and say this, ye will receive him, and say that he is a prophet."

How hard it must be to take a simple statement on those who call sin righteousness, and turn it into a homophobic slur!  But hard work or not, I guess someone has to do it.

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

This is Hamba's thing to reply to, but I find myself quite annoyed at this.  I have a feeling you're reading bigotry into something that has none at all!  For what reason I cannot say, but for crying out loud, the words of the scripture are, or should be, crystal clear, including what Hamba is using it to say.

If Reynolds has said that a little premarital sex between consenting adults in love with each other is just peachy keen, which he has, and everyone is nodding earnestly at his wisdom, which they are, despite everything the scriptures say about that, then that is a perfect illustration of the Helaman quote:

"But behold, if a man shall come among you and shall say: Do this, and there is no iniquity; do that and ye shall not suffer; yea, he will say: Walk after the pride of your own hearts; yea, walk after the pride of your eyes, and do whatsoever your heart desireth—and if a man shall come among you and say this, ye will receive him, and say that he is a prophet."

How hard it must be to take a simple statement on those who call sin righteousness, and turn it into a homophobic slur!  But hard work or not, I guess someone has to do it.

The scripture Hamba quoted doesn’t say anything about sex, and it’s pretty unclear about what subject it’s referring to.  

You clearly have animus towards Reynolds, and you’re entitled to that opinion.  I haven’t heard Reynolds advocating for premarital sex, but I did hear him voice concern over how people are treated in Mormon culture and at BYU who’ve engaged in premarital sex.  

From my perspective this is another important topic to consider in a religious context.  How do our gospel values teach us to treat those who make choices that are frowned upon both as fellow brothers and sisters, as well as through institutional discipline via the BYU honor code.  All relevant ideas to consider.  

[provoman]

Not being ashamed of receiving mental health support, is almost a gimmie, but society as a whole needs to work on that, as for showing love for everyone....well that is the Gospel has been about since the beginning.

The most unimpressive thing about Dan Reynolds is he makes claims without evidence...mainly LGBT suicide, what I have found is that The Church responsible for LGBT suicide has become " repeat it often and loudly enough and it will be accepted as true"

Edited August 5, 2018 by provoman

[Stargazer]

15 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

The scripture Hamba quoted doesn’t say anything about sex, and it’s pretty unclear about what subject it’s referring to.  

You clearly have animus towards Reynolds, and you’re entitled to that opinion.  I haven’t heard Reynolds advocating for premarital sex, but I did hear him voice concern over how people are treated in Mormon culture and at BYU who’ve engaged in premarital sex.  

From my perspective this is another important topic to consider in a religious context.  How do our gospel values teach us to treat those who make choices that are frowned upon both as fellow brothers and sisters, as well as through institutional discipline via the BYU honor code.  All relevant ideas to consider.  

I don't have animus against him.  I'm sure Reynolds is a fine person to know.  The things that he has been quoted as saying about the subject of premarital sex, which have been mentioned here in this thread, say one thing clearly, and that is that he doesn't consider premarital sex to be sinful.  And the Church shouldn't be disciplining those who engage in it.  He's wrong about this.

What I was objecting to was your suggestion that Hamba was being a homophobe because of a scripture he posted.  A scripture that says nothing about LGBTQ issues (or sex, as you point out), but speaks harshly about those who excuse sinful behavior and call those who approve of it prophets.  It does happen to be the case that premarital sex is sinful behavior, and therefore, if the scripture is to be believed, those who excuse it as a nothing burger and teach others to disregard the commandments regarding it are celebrated -- well, I don't see that as a positive thing.  YMMV.

 

[hope_for_things]

33 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I don't have animus against him.  I'm sure Reynolds is a fine person to know.  The things that he has been quoted as saying about the subject of premarital sex, which have been mentioned here in this thread, say one thing clearly, and that is that he doesn't consider premarital sex to be sinful.  And the Church shouldn't be disciplining those who engage in it.  He's wrong about this.

What I was objecting to was your suggestion that Hamba was being a homophobe because of a scripture he posted.  A scripture that says nothing about LGBTQ issues (or sex, as you point out), but speaks harshly about those who excuse sinful behavior and call those who approve of it prophets.  It does happen to be the case that premarital sex is sinful behavior, and therefore, if the scripture is to be believed, those who excuse it as a nothing burger and teach others to disregard the commandments regarding it are celebrated -- well, I don't see that as a positive thing.  YMMV.

 

I don’t recall him saying premarital sex not sinful, or advocating for zero discipline, perhaps you could remind me where he says that?  

What I heard him express was feelings of shame over how he was treated including being kicked out of school for a year.  

As for a scripture that warns against excusing sinful behavior, I’m thinking that treating marginalized LGBTQ individuals as less-than through hurtful policies that discriminate is applicable.  

[hope_for_things]

44 minutes ago, provoman said:

dan reynolds supports same sex sexual relationships, he has things that are not within the guide of the gospel. 

Not being ashamed of recieving mental health support, is almost a gimmie, but society as a whole needs to work on tbat, as for showing love for everyone....well that is the Gospel has been about since the beginning.

The most unimpressive thing about Dan Reynolds is he makes claims without evidence...mainly LGBT suicide, what I have found is that The Church respinsible for LGBT suicide has become " repeat it often and loudly enoungh and it will be accepted as true"

Same sex relationships aren’t objectively antithetical to the gospel, that is just the perspective of some people.  Others strongly disagree.  

Speaking candidly and destigmatizing mental health counseling was refreshing to hear and I agree society needs to improve on this.  

As for LGBTQ suicide in Utah, it’s a difficult statistic to draw direct causation from.  I trust those in the trenches who interact with these youth.  Suicide in Utah has spiked in recent years and it’s a major concern.  It would be irresponsible to say the church is the only factor, but it would also be irresponsible to rule out the influence of the church on this issue.  

[Storm Rider]

On ‎8‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 5:53 PM, hope_for_things said:

Last week I got to watch the Believer documentary and I also watched the LoveLoud concert (as broadcast live on Youtube this year).  And i can't shake how powerful the messages were to me.  The way Dan Reynolds has conducted himself and the messages that he's sending about how we need to treat our LGBTQ brothers and sisters have been truly inspirational. 

Another thing he did during the concert that I just found so powerful, was he talked about how he's seeing a counselor and how we should all see a counselor if we're struggling and that nobody should be ashamed of that, and how its an important resource and can help us to learn and grow.  I just loved how clear and open and breaking down of the stigmas that our society often has about really basic things like this.  I found it so refreshing.  He's not a man of sophisticated and eloquent speech, but his words speak to the regular person in such a clear and powerful way.  I was just so impressed by him and what I heard.  

The thought that came to mind is that what I'm hearing from Dan Reyolds is prophetic.  And in a time where prophesy from church leaders often seems completely absent, I was impressed that the prophetic speech I'm hearing is not coming from a religious leader, but a rock star.  I honestly feel this is true, and I wanted to share in case anyone else might have thoughts about it.  Thanks

It seems that you define being prophetic by the degree to which you agree with the speaker.  I think if you reviewed the role of a prophet they seldom told people what they wanted to hear. Strange, huh.

[hope_for_things]

Just now, Storm Rider said:

It seems that you define being prophetic by the degree to which you agree with the speaker.  I think if you reviewed the role of a prophet they seldom told people what they wanted to hear. Strange, huh.

Dan was speaking to fairly diverse audience many of whom likely disagreed with him on some things, I know of active orthodox members who attended the event. 

Are there statements people have made that you consider to be prophetic?  If so, did you ever personally agree with those statements, and how does your personal agreement with something effect what you define as prophetic?  

[Stargazer]

27 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I don’t recall him saying premarital sex not sinful, or advocating for zero discipline, perhaps you could remind me where he says that?  

In jbarm's report of what he observed: http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/70862-dan-reynolds-prophet/?do=findComment&comment=1209839904

 

27 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

What I heard him express was feelings of shame over how he was treated including being kicked out of school for a year.  

If one commits a serious sin, should one not feel ashamed over the sin?  Or only the treatment one receives because of it?  The problem here is the Code of Conduct which he agreed to comply with as a condition of attending BYU -- and you can complain about the strictures imposed by the code, and disagree with them all you want -- should he not be held responsible for breaking what amounts to a covenant?  If I like to drink a beer once a month, do I have a leg to stand on when my bishop refuses to issue me a temple recommend?  I guess you adhere to the loosey-goosey aw-shucks-tain't-nothing-wrong attitude when it comes to God's commandments?

27 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

As for a scripture that warns against excusing sinful behavior, I’m thinking that treating marginalized LGBTQ individuals as less-than through hurtful policies that discriminate is applicable.  

First of all, Hamba did not mention LGTBQ at all, nor did this come up in connection with Dan Reynolds in this thread.  So why do you insist upon bringing it up? Or did I miss something?  I understand that you want the Lord's church to give its blessing to LGTBQ sexual relationships and marital unions as if the Lord never issued any commandments or standards regarding it, but must it come up every freaking time someone talks about sinful behavior in general?