Dan Reynolds - Prophet

[hope_for_things]

29 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

In jbarm's report of what he observed: http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/70862-dan-reynolds-prophet/?do=findComment&comment=1209839904

 

If one commits a serious sin, should one not feel ashamed over the sin?  Or only the treatment one receives because of it?  The problem here is the Code of Conduct which he agreed to comply with as a condition of attending BYU -- and you can complain about the strictures imposed by the code, and disagree with them all you want -- should he not be held responsible for breaking what amounts to a covenant?  If I like to drink a beer once a month, do I have a leg to stand on when my bishop refuses to issue me a temple recommend?  I guess you adhere to the loosey-goosey aw-shucks-tain't-nothing-wrong attitude when it comes to God's commandments?

First of all, Hamba did not mention LGTBQ at all, nor did this come up in connection with Dan Reynolds in this thread.  So why do you insist upon bringing it up? Or did I miss something?  I understand that you want the Lord's church to give its blessing to LGTBQ sexual relationships and marital unions as if the Lord never issued any commandments or standards regarding it, but must it come up every freaking time someone talks about sinful behavior in general?  

I just reread the comments you linked to and there aren’t any quotes of Dan advocating for premarital sex.  He calls out the shame and the BYU discipline just as I mentioned earlier, and I believe those items are problematic and should be examined more closely.  

Yes he agreed to the BYU code, but does that mean everything in the code is fair and appropriate?  Is the shaming in our culture appropriate and in harmony with gospel principles?  These are things worthy of critical examination.  

As for the scripture, I showed how it can be interpreted very differently.  I’m in favor of critical reading and study of scripture, expecially when it challenges our comfortable positions.  If you feel God is on your side, I would argue that God doesn’t take sides, loves all and wants us to be more forgiving and inclusive, not divisive.  

[Hamba Tuhan]

On 8/3/2018 at 12:22 PM, jbarm said:

Do whatever you want as long as a pop star approves.  Yep, the secret to lasting happiness.

People who claim to have a great vision of what others should do will have their own words examined for consistency with their claimed adherence to a belief system.

This reminds me of another great scripture, Jeremiah 23, where the Lord, speaking through His authorised mouthpiece, held forth regarding those whom the ancient Jews preferred as prophets:

Quote

I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness; they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah ...

I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied. But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings ...

Is not my word like as a fire? saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces? ...

Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the Lord, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the Lord.

Truly there is nothing new under the sun.

Edited August 5, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[Calm]

 

Quote

 

As for LGBTQ suicide in Utah, it’s a difficult statistic to draw direct causation from.

Probably because we don't really have that specific stat to begin with, but just anecdotes about L-Q suicides and stats for youth suicides in general.

Edited August 5, 2018 by Calm

[Calm]

12 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Dan was speaking to fairly diverse audience many of whom likely disagreed with him on some things, I know of active orthodox members who attended the event. 

Are there statements people have made that you consider to be prophetic?  If so, did you ever personally agree with those statements, and how does your personal agreement with something effect what you define as prophetic?  

Did they judge him a prophet or just you who appears to agree with what he said?

[hope_for_things]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

 

Probably because we don't really have that specific stat to begin with, but just anecdotes about L-Q suicides and stats for youth suicides in general.

That there is insufficient data doesn’t discount this very serious problem. Like I said, we have enough people working directly with this segment of our kids to be very concerned about recent trends.  

[hope_for_things]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Did they judge him a prophet or just you who appears to agree with what he said?

Who knows, I’m not a mind reader.  Does it even matter if someone labels the words of another as prophetic?  What seems to matter most is how those words spoken influence the hearers.  

[provoman]

14 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I just reread the comments you linked to and there aren’t any quotes of Dan advocating for premarital sex.  He calls out the shame and the BYU discipline just as I mentioned earlier, and I believe those items are problematic and should be examined more closely.  

Yes he agreed to the BYU code, but does that mean everything in the code is fair and appropriate?  Is the shaming in our culture appropriate and in harmony with gospel principles?  These are things worthy of critical examination.  

As for the scripture, I showed how it can be interpreted very differently.  I’m in favor of critical reading and study of scripture, expecially when it challenges our comfortable positions.  If you feel God is on your side, I would argue that God doesn’t take sides, loves all and wants us to be more forgiving and inclusive, not divisive.  

I dont think "our culture shames". I do not discount the perception of others. 

Do we, as individuals feel guilt and shame for our conduct, sure we do.

I agree with that God wants us to love one another and our neighbor, but I do not believe that love, foegivness means we abandon the standards we have agreed to.

[Jeanne]

2 hours ago, provoman said:

I dont think "our culture shames". I do not discount the perception of others. 

Do we, as individuals feel guilt and shame for our conduct, sure we do.

I agree with that God wants us to love one another and our neighbor, but I do not believe that love, foegivness means we abandon the standards we have agreed to.

What if those standards you have agreed to seem to urk you a little..surely you have felt that sometimes these standards need to be tweaked a little to form an inclusion of others.

[hope_for_things]

2 hours ago, provoman said:

I dont think "our culture shames". I do not discount the perception of others. 

Do we, as individuals feel guilt and shame for our conduct, sure we do.

I agree with that God wants us to love one another and our neighbor, but I do not believe that love, foegivness means we abandon the standards we have agreed to.

All cultures shame to some extent and i would argue that this is something we learn from an extremely young age, they’ve even done studies to look at when babies start to make racial preferences and it’s before they learn to talk.  Shame is highly influenced by our environment.  

As for agreed standards, there are many different perspectives on what those standards are exactly and they are constantly evolving and relative to the culture as well.

[Stargazer]

18 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I just reread the comments you linked to and there aren’t any quotes of Dan advocating for premarital sex.  He calls out the shame and the BYU discipline just as I mentioned earlier, and I believe those items are problematic and should be examined more closely.  

Yes he agreed to the BYU code, but does that mean everything in the code is fair and appropriate?  Is the shaming in our culture appropriate and in harmony with gospel principles?  These are things worthy of critical examination.  

As for the scripture, I showed how it can be interpreted very differently.  I’m in favor of critical reading and study of scripture, expecially when it challenges our comfortable positions.  If you feel God is on your side, I would argue that God doesn’t take sides, loves all and wants us to be more forgiving and inclusive, not divisive.  

I've been involved in DC's for sexual sins.  I understand how a person can feel ashamed by others (bishopric and stake presidency) knowing about what one did.  And one can feel ashamed even if the DC is quite kind and understanding about it all.  Which in the cases where I was involved, they all were, kind and understanding I mean.  But isn't one supposed to feel ashamed of having committed a sin?  It's part of the process of repentance, to the best of my knowledge.  You know, Godly sorrow and so forth?

So, is everything in the code fair and appropriate? Having read it, I think that by and large it is fair and appropriate -- as long as it is enforced consistently.  Because if we make exceptions all over the place, there really isn't a standard and we should just let it all hang out.  When you start selectively enforcing a standard it is no longer a standard.  And those who hold to the standard begin to see that holding to it has no value.  It is then that you lose it.

I agree that God wants us to be forgiving.  But forgiveness involves repentance, does it not?  And repentance has a certain progress, doesn't it?  

[Calm]

Ach...no more automatic saving of posts

5 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

That there is insufficient data doesn’t discount this very serious problem. Like I said, we have enough people working directly with this segment of our kids to be very concerned about recent trends.  

And if the expressed concerns turns out to be driving the trends and not the reverse?

Quote

An analysis of a 2015 survey of Utah teens shows "significant risk factors for suicide ideation were being bullied at school or online and (drug) use in the previous month," the report states.

Demographic factors associated with higher susceptibility for suicide ideation and attempts included being female, not white, in early high school and having "low parental education."

The report also found that "students who reported participating more frequently in religious activities … had lesser risk."

"Supportive social environments were found to be protective for suicide ideation and attempts," the report states. "Supportive social environments are characterized by ones in which youth feel involved, valued and able to ask for and receive help when they need it." Such environments include families, schools and community groups, according to the report.

Although surveys showed girls were generally at greater risk of suicide ideation, 78 percent of Utah youths who died from suicide between 2011 and 2015 were boys.

Michael Friedrichs, epidemiologist for the state Bureau of Health Promotion, pointed out that it's not only youth suicides that are increasing, but also the number of teens considering suicide in general. In all, 19 percent of youths surveyed in 2015 had considered suicide within the previous year, compared with just 11 percent who gave that answer to the same question in 2011, he said.

Drug use is highly correlated with youth suicide.  Drug use has increased. Technology use disruption has been found to be correlated with youth suicide.  Tech use has increased dramatically and therefore chances for disruption have increased as has cyber bullying, etc.  

Quote

One finding that health officials called unexpected was the discovery that 12.6 percent of Utah youths lost to suicide between 2011 and 2015 had "experienced a technology-related restriction prior to their death." That statistic included the taking away of cellphones, gaming systems, tablets or computers, and didn't specify whether it was the cause or result of a family conflict, the report explained.

"Given how broad this variable was, additional research is needed to understand the implications of this finding, including the extent to which this represents interruption to social support networks, distress over losing access to the electronic device, anger over being punished or some other factors," the analysis cautioned.

Talking about suicide among youth has long been known to increase rates.  Discussion of suicides among youth has skyrocketed in the past five years, including discussion in potentially dangerous ways imo.  How often does it take for a kid being told they are prone to suicide to start thinking of suicide as an expected behaviour and therefore begins to see it as a valid option.  Where is the concern that telling LGBTQ youth that they are at risk for suicide may actually increase their belief that suicide is a valid choice for them?

 

Edited August 5, 2018 by Calm

[Calm]

5 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Who knows, I’m not a mind reader.  Does it even matter if someone labels the words of another as prophetic?  What seems to matter most is how those words spoken influence the hearers.  

It depends on what the purpose of the label is, just as all labeling can be irrelevant or very important in affecting behaviour.

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

I've been involved in DC's for sexual sins.  I understand how a person can feel ashamed by others (bishopric and stake presidency) knowing about what one did.  And one can feel ashamed even if the DC is quite kind and understanding about it all.  Which in the cases where I was involved, they all were, kind and understanding I mean.  But isn't one supposed to feel ashamed of having committed a sin?  It's part of the process of repentance, to the best of my knowledge.  You know, Godly sorrow and so forth?

So, is everything in the code fair and appropriate? Having read it, I think that by and large it is fair and appropriate -- as long as it is enforced consistently.  Because if we make exceptions all over the place, there really isn't a standard and we should just let it all hang out.  When you start selectively enforcing a standard it is no longer a standard.  And those who hold to the standard begin to see that holding to it has no value.  It is then that you lose it.

I agree that God wants us to be forgiving.  But forgiveness involves repentance, does it not?  And repentance has a certain progress, doesn't it?  

The shame over premarital sex is strongly socially conditioned, and arguably doesn’t even exist in other cultures.  Taboos in other cultures are equally foreign to us in the USA.  Assuming God is always driving these feelings is where I disagree.  

I disagree about the honor code, and I know many orthodox members who also have concerns about it.  

[hope_for_things]

42 minutes ago, Calm said:

Ach...no more automatic saving of posts

And if the expressed concerns turns out to be driving the trends and not the reverse?

Drug use is highly correlated with youth suicide.  Drug use has increased. Technology use disruption has been found to be correlated with youth suicide.  Tech use has increased dramatically and therefore chances for disruption have increased as has cyber bullying, etc.  

Talking about suicide among youth has long been known to increase rates.  Discussion of suicides among youth has skyrocketed in the past five years, including discussion in potentially dangerous ways imo.  How often does it take for a kid being told they are prone to suicide to start thinking of suicide as an expected behaviour and therefore begins to see it as a valid option.  Where is the concern that telling LGBTQ youth that they are at risk for suicide may actually increase their belief that suicide is a valid choice for them?

 

I think all the people involved in suicide prevention are concerned about the things you’ve mentioned as well.  As I mentioned it’s a complicated topic. 

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I think all the people involved in suicide prevention are concerned about the things you’ve mentioned as well.  As I mentioned it’s a complicated topic. 

Has Dan Reynolds discussed helping youth avoid drug use or overdependency on technology?

[hope_for_things]

8 minutes ago, Calm said:

Has Dan Reynolds discussed helping youth avoid drug use or overdependency on technology?

I honestly don’t know.  

[USU78]

23 minutes ago, Calm said:

Has Dan Reynolds discussed helping youth avoid drug use or overdependency on technology?

... or the need to get help from mental health experts when suicidal thoughts intrude?

[CV75]

37 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

The shame over premarital sex is strongly socially conditioned, and arguably doesn’t even exist in other cultures.  Taboos in other cultures are equally foreign to us in the USA.  Assuming God is always driving these feelings is where I disagree.  

I disagree about the honor code, and I know many orthodox members who also have concerns about it.  

“And that same sociality which exists among us here will exist among us there, only it will be coupled with eternal glory, which glory we do not now enjoy.” Because of prophets, we have an introduction to what God’s sociality, the Zion culture, is. These are maintained by the underpinning of godlike spirituality: “And the Lord called his people Zion, because they were of one heart and one mind, and dwelt in righteousness; and there was no poor among them.” God does drive His sociality, culture, and spirituality (“an holy nation”) as do all foreign powers that be, regardless of their various nationalities.

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Talking about suicide among youth has long been known to increase rates ... Where is the concern that telling LGBTQ youth that they are at risk for suicide may actually increase their belief that suicide is a valid choice for them?

This!

People who need young people to be in serious crisis so that they can position themselves as their public champions will someday have much to answer for.

[jbarm]

Find it rather interesting that someone who has made it clear that they don't believe in God (or anything supernatural) believes we should annoint a pop singer as a prophet. 

Can one not believe in God but believe in prophecy, as it is usually defined in this forum?

[Daniel2]

On ‎8‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 8:43 PM, kllindley said:

So are you also inspired to silence any LGBT brothers and sisters who support the Church and sustain our leaders? Or just to use their stories without permission and take their words out of context?

I haven't read the rest of the thread yet, but this is strikes me as WAY out of left field.

Kllindley, can you provide any evidence that Dan Reynolds or anyone else is attempting to "silence any LGBT brothers and sisters who support the Church or sustain [it's] leaders"?

[Daniel2]

On ‎8‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 7:19 AM, HappyJackWagon said:

Here we go again.

So are you accusing Reynolds of misrepresenting LGBT individuals? CFR. I'd like to see examples as well as an accusation from a person who feels they were misrepresented.

@kllindley

 

Glad to see someone else called this out and I look forward to reading more.

[Daniel2]

On ‎8‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 8:29 AM, HappyJackWagon said:

any updates?

@kllindley

Hmm.  End of the thread, and nothing yet.....

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, Daniel2 said:

Hmm.  End of the thread, and nothing yet.....

If he is waiting for friends to respond to his request for more info, he doesn't have control over that.  He modified what he said before when he couldn't provide the reference, I see no reason not to assume he will do it again if necessary.

He did say 24 hrs on Friday, but I generally give people the benefit of the doubt over weekends.  Lots of family stuff or other unplanned interruptions show up then or people just don't check email.

Edited August 6, 2018 by Calm

[hope_for_things]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

“And that same sociality which exists among us here will exist among us there, only it will be coupled with eternal glory, which glory we do not now enjoy.” Because of prophets, we have an introduction to what God’s sociality, the Zion culture, is. These are maintained by the underpinning of godlike spirituality: “And the Lord called his people Zion, because they were of one heart and one mind, and dwelt in righteousness; and there was no poor among them.” God does drive His sociality, culture, and spirituality (“an holy nation”) as do all foreign powers that be, regardless of their various nationalities.

And yet here we are fellow Mormons with very different opinions on how to treat people.  All part of this same sociality.