strategy vs. entempered habits?

[nuclearfuels]

Curious as to what others here think:

If you learned the strategies required to count cards and used them playing 21, with set limits on what you would spend and when you would leave/how much you aimed to win, would you consider that gambling?

Seems like it would be something else.

If you analyzed lottery numbers and used pattern recognition, floating averages, and a few other strategies, would you consider that gambling?

Thanks.

[Ahab]

Yes to both questions.  I call it gambling when there is a risk of losing money is an attempt to gain more money when there is no guaranteed outcome. 

Putting money in a savings account isn't gambling because there is a guaranteed rate of return and no risk of losing the money put into the savings account.

Playing the stock market is gambling, though, to my understanding.  In my case it is my employer who is gambling with my retirement funds, though, since I don't put any of my money into my account and I have no control over how that money is invested.  I just get whatever is in my account when I retire.  My employer puts the equivalent of 6% of my income into my  retirement account but none of that was ever my money.  I just hope there will be a good amount of money in there when I decide it is time for me to retire.

[Jeanne]

12 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Yes to both questions.  I call it gambling when there is a risk of losing money is an attempt to gain more money when there is no guaranteed outcome. 

Putting money in a savings account isn't gambling because there is a guaranteed rate of return and no risk of losing the money put into the savings account.

Playing the stock market is gambling, though, to my understanding.  In my case it is my employer who is gambling with my retirement funds, though, since I don't put any of my money into my account and I have no control over how that money is invested.  I just get whatever is in my account when I retire.  My employer puts the equivalent of 6% of my income into my  retirement account but none of that was ever my money.  I just hope there will be a good amount of money in there when I decide it is time for me to retire.

😋Then can I take you with me to Wendover or Vegas???  I will BET not!

[Ahab]

Just now, Jeanne said:

😋Then can I take you with me to Wendover or Vegas???  I will BET not!

Well, my wife would probably not want me to go with you, but there are several places I like with good buffets at good prices.  Or at least there used to be.  I lived in Kingman Arizona for several years and I would go to Vegas for food fairly often.

I don't know about Wendover though.  Is that like Reno, or Laughlin?

[Jeanne]

7 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Well, my wife would probably not want me to go with you, but there are several places I like with good buffets at good prices.  Or at least there used to be.  I lived in Kingman Arizona for several years and I would go to Vegas for food fairly often.

I don't know about Wendover though.  Is that like Reno, or Laughlin?

On the stateline between Utah and Nevada..few hundred miles outside of Reno.  I have always wanted to go to Laughlin..Oh..and for heavens sakes..bring your wife..I meant the both of you...😎

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

Yes to both questions.  I call it gambling when there is a risk of losing money is an attempt to gain more money when there is no guaranteed outcome. 

Putting money in a savings account isn't gambling because there is a guaranteed rate of return and no risk of losing the money put into the savings account.

Playing the stock market is gambling, though, to my understanding.  In my case it is my employer who is gambling with my retirement funds, though, since I don't put any of my money into my account and I have no control over how that money is invested.  I just get whatever is in my account when I retire.  My employer puts the equivalent of 6% of my income into my  retirement account but none of that was ever my money.  I just hope there will be a good amount of money in there when I decide it is time for me to retire.

If gambling is anything that has no guaranteed outcome, then everything is gambling.  If savings accounts are guaranteed, as you claim, the guarantee of savings accounts is that your money will lose value in them when you account for the annual inflation rate.  In an economic meltdown, even insured banks are no guarantee. Nothing is without risk.  Driving your car to work is a gamble.

The point is about managing your risk versus blind risk taking.

Edited July 3, 2018 by pogi

[Ahab]

11 minutes ago, pogi said:

If gambling is anything that has no guaranteed outcome, then everything is gambling.  If savings accounts are guaranteed, as you claim, the guarantee of savings accounts is that your money will lose value in them when you account for the annual inflation rate.  In an economic meltdown, even insured banks are no guarantee. Nothing is without risk.  Driving your car to work is a gamble.

I didn't say gambling is anything that has no guaranteed outcome.  I said I call it gambling when there is a risk of losing money is an attempt to gain more money when there is no guaranteed outcome.  And savings accounts will still give a net gain in money because the annual inflation rate is going to happen anyway so the interest gained mitigates some of that loss,. as does having bank insurance, or even driving my car to work.  There is a guarantee that if I work I will gain some more money.  All I have to do is show up to get paid.

[pogi]

2 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Curious as to what others here think:

If you learned the strategies required to count cards and used them playing 21, with set limits on what you would spend and when you would leave/how much you aimed to win, would you consider that gambling?

Seems like it would be something else.

If you analyzed lottery numbers and used pattern recognition, floating averages, and a few other strategies, would you consider that gambling?

Thanks.

Gambling? Probably not. Cheating? Probably.

Edited July 3, 2018 by pogi

[pogi]

16 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I didn't say gambling is anything that has no guaranteed outcome.  I said I call it gambling when there is a risk of losing money is an attempt to gain more money when there is no guaranteed outcome.

So any investment/starting a business is gambling?

16 minutes ago, Ahab said:

And savings accounts will still give a net gain in money because the annual inflation rate is going to happen anyway so the interest gained mitigates some of that loss

Net loss after accounting for inflation.  You are right, inflation is going to happen anyway, that is why you have to account for it in your net totals.   If you don’t account for inflation and invest smart, your money is guaranteed to lose value.

Edited July 3, 2018 by pogi

[Ahab]

Just now, pogi said:

So any investment/starting a business is gambling?

Net loss after accounting for inflation.  If you don’t account for inflation and invest smart, your money is guaranteed to lose value.

Yes to your question and while savings account interest can be a net loss it's not as much of a loss with the interest gained so it's a gain over what would have otherwise been lost, hence it is still a net gain.  Do I need to do the math for you now?

The best investments are those with a guaranteed rate of return of as much as possible of what was invested, by the way.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

Yes to your question.

So, you are supporting gambling by going to work for your employer everyday?

”Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?”

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

 and while savings account interest can be a net loss it's not as much of a loss with the interest gained so it's a gain over what would have otherwise been lost, hence it is still a net gain.  Do I need to do the math for you now?

It is not considered a “net gain” even if it is “not as much of a loss” as it otherwise might have been...it is still a net “loss”.  What we are really comparing is a net loss and less of a net loss. There is no net gain in net loss.

Edited July 4, 2018 by pogi

[Calm]

The problem for me with c-a-sinogambling is it is only about money exchange.  The only way for one person to win money is for others to lose it.

Stock market, business investment, etc....that is using money to provide a service and no one needs to lose for others to win.

[nuclearfuels]

3 hours ago, pogi said:

If gambling is anything that has no guaranteed outcome, then everything is gambling.  If savings accounts are guaranteed, as you claim, the guarantee of savings accounts is that your money will lose value in them when you account for the annual inflation rate.  In an economic meltdown, even insured banks are no guarantee. Nothing is without risk.  Driving your car to work is a gamble.

The point is about managing your risk versus blind risk taking.

Yes, Pogi.

The point is about managing risk

Surprised more people don't understand the risk they take by losing money to inflation after 2008-09

[nuclearfuels]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

Gambling? Probably not. Cheating? Probably.

Using strategies = cheating?

Should I surrender my king from the first move in Chess then?  

[pogi]

2 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Using strategies = cheating?

Should I surrender my king from the first move in Chess then?  

In the eyes of the c/asino - yes.  Theses are gambling facilities.  If you are not gambling, then you are cheating the system, in their eyes anyway.  Their business plan doesn’t work unless you are actually gambling.  If you are caught counting cards, you will be banned from the c/asino, if you are lucky!   

Edited July 4, 2018 by pogi

[The Nehor]

11 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Curious as to what others here think:

If you learned the strategies required to count cards and used them playing 21, with set limits on what you would spend and when you would leave/how much you aimed to win, would you consider that gambling?

Seems like it would be something else.

If you analyzed lottery numbers and used pattern recognition, floating averages, and a few other strategies, would you consider that gambling?

Thanks.

Good luck with that. They are on to this. Some have changed their rules to take away the "counting cards" edge. Others reshuffle more often to avoid card counters. They can also throw you out and will if they suspect you are counting cards (suddenly putting down big money when there are a lot of aces left in the deck is a warning sign). The people who were pulling off card counting a decade ago would work in groups. You have a couple of people sitting at tables playing for small bts and at least one not at a table. If a table has a deck set up to be good the person playing that table discreetly signals and one of the others in the group shows up and starts betting big on that table. Even with this strategy the edge is minimal.

The house always wins.

If you want to read about how someone screwed up with their g@mbling system in the past may I suggest this story of a state screwing up with their l0ttery:

https://highline.huffingtonpost.com/articles/en/lotto-winners/

6 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Using strategies = cheating?

Should I surrender my king from the first move in Chess then?  

They consider it cheating, yes. They will throw you out if they catch you at it.

EDIT: I had to rewrite this post multiple times to avoid trigger words to prevent posting. One would think this board does not support Native American reparations:

 

Edited July 4, 2018 by The Nehor

[RevTestament]

On 7/3/2018 at 2:10 PM, nuclearfuels said:

Curious as to what others here think:

If you learned the strategies required to count cards and used them playing 21, with set limits on what you would spend and when you would leave/how much you aimed to win, would you consider that gambling?

Seems like it would be something else.

If you analyzed lottery numbers and used pattern recognition, floating averages, and a few other strategies, would you consider that gambling?

Thanks.

I don't think this thread will last long in the general discussion category. I don't think using a strategy to improve your odds is really cheating. I play many games of strategy. The fact that something improves your odds of winning doesn't make it cheating to me if it is done within the rules of the game followed by everyone else. If casin0s change the rules and don't allow a certain strategy, I suppose they would consider its use cheating, but there was a time when counting cards was not cheating. It only became considered so, when its use became too successful for the house to make money. Why is it considered not cheating when the odds of all games favor the house?

On 7/3/2018 at 4:20 PM, pogi said:

Gambling? Probably not. Cheating? Probably.

Gambling? Sure it is, but I don't think those strategies are going to help you win the l0ttery much.

[mfbukowski]

On 7/3/2018 at 2:10 PM, nuclearfuels said:

Curious as to what others here think:

If you learned the strategies required to count cards and used them playing 21, with set limits on what you would spend and when you would leave/how much you aimed to win, would you consider that gambling?

Seems like it would be something else.

If you analyzed lottery numbers and used pattern recognition, floating averages, and a few other strategies, would you consider that gambling?

Thanks.

No, this is called "day trading" .  

I have done a little myself.  It's not much different than starting a hamburger stand and hoping to make money.

Edited July 5, 2018 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

On 7/3/2018 at 4:36 PM, Ahab said:

Yes to your question and while savings account interest can be a net loss it's not as much of a loss with the interest gained so it's a gain over what would have otherwise been lost, hence it is still a net gain.  Do I need to do the math for you now?

The best investments are those with a guaranteed rate of return of as much as possible of what was invested, by the way.

And how do you suppose those who invest those funds make money?  They get a better return, which is not guaranteed, and pay you a lower guaranteed return.  Annuities for example- the insurance company lends on commercial properties at perhaps 10% - with risk incidentally as brick and mortar stores are disappearing- and gives you 3 "guaranteed" as long as the insurnce company doesn't go under.

Theoretically the US government could go under so even government bonds are only guaranteed by the govt.

When the asteroid hits, nothing is "guaranteed".

Risk is ever present in investing - there is no such thing as an investment without risk- the only question is how much you are willing to take.

Edited July 5, 2018 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

On 7/3/2018 at 2:43 PM, Ahab said:

 I call it gambling when there is a risk of losing money is an attempt to gain more money when there is no guaranteed outcome. 

THIS is what you said.

By this definition ANY business is a "gamble".

[Ahab]

On ‎7‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 5:29 PM, pogi said:

So, you are supporting gambling by going to work for your employer everyday?

No, your question was: So any investment/starting a business is gambling?   I said yes to that.  I don't consider it to be gambling for me to go to my job, even though I am paying for gas and an auto to get me there.  Maybe I need to clarify my understanding of what gambling is?

 

On ‎7‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 5:29 PM, pogi said:

”Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?”

Interesting question, and I had to think about it for a while when I first answered my bishop who asked me.  Bottom line answer though is no, I don't.  I mingle with some of those folks but I don't consider myself to be associated with them or to agree with them when they teach things contrary to what is accepted by the Church..

 

On ‎7‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 5:29 PM, pogi said:

It is not considered a “net gain” even if it is “not as much of a loss” as it otherwise might have been...it is still a net “loss”.  What we are really comparing is a net loss and less of a net loss. There is no net gain in net loss.

Just a gain, then, or at least I consider it to be.  Less of a net loss equates to a gain to me.

[Ahab]

11 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

THIS is what you said.

By this definition ANY business is a "gamble".

Yes, I agree with that, which is one of the reasons why I don't have my own business.  But perhaps the Church considers that form of gambling to be acceptable.  Some church members apparently think so.

Btw, another reason I don't have my own business is because I don't have enough money to start it, and I wouldn't want to take out a loan to start it, putting myself in debt. 

I would first want to pay in full for everything I needed and then hope I would be able to find some customers to reimburse me for any of my materials I used, plus my labor, at a profit.  A construction company of some kind, probably.

[mfbukowski]

13 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Yes, I agree with that, which is one of the reasons why I don't have my own business.  But perhaps the Church considers that form of gambling to be acceptable.  Some church members apparently think so.

Btw, another reason I don't have my own business is because I don't have enough money to start it, and I wouldn't want to take out a loan to start it, putting myself in debt. 

I would first want to pay in full for everything I needed and then hope I would be able to find some customers to reimburse me for any of my materials I used, plus my labor, at a profit.  A construction company of some kind, probably.

Yes I would suggest that you think it through a little more.

Most business people would not work for others simply because they're typically is no money in it unless you are in a highly compensated profession. That is exactly why people start their own businesses, to make money.

Driving in your car to get to work as a risk you have just judged it to be worth it.

To me gambling is trying to get something for nothing like play the lotto. If you are honestly engaged in labor trying to make a living then you are not gambling. Think of the Pioneers who were all farmers. You would probably judge that is gambling it was well.

Plant the crops. Maybe they come up maybe they don't.

What was Joseph Smith's means of earning a living? Was he a gambler?

If your ancestors were farmers than you come from a long line of gamblers.

If you work for someone who has his own business or even a large corporation, then you are supporting gambling, and making more money for the Gambler than he is paying you. To me that is like indentured servitude.

Everything you do in life is a gamble to some extent or other. You just have to decide when it's sinful. To me it is sinful when you expect something for nothing.

 

Edited July 5, 2018 by mfbukowski

[pogi]

2 minutes ago, Ahab said:

No, your question was: So any investment/starting a business is gambling?   I said yes to that.  I don't consider it to be gambling for me to go to my job, even though I am paying for gas and an auto to get me there.  Maybe I need to clarify my understanding of what gambling is?

Right, if starting a business is gambling, then working for a business owner is supporting gamblers.  If business is a gamble, then working in business is participating in the gambling industry.  You are supporting the industry, you are supporting your employer/gambler with your labors.

Just an FYI, if starting a business is gambling, then M Russell Ballard, Robert D. Hales, Neil L. Andersen, and Gary E. Stevenson were all called as apostles as professional gamblers.  Do you sustain these brethren?

[Ahab]

11 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Yes I would suggest that you think it through a little more.

Most business people would not work for others simply because they're typically is no money in it unless you are in a highly compensated profession. That is exactly why people start their own businesses, to make money.

Driving in your car to get to work as a risk you have just judged it to be worth it.

To me gambling is trying to get something for nothing like play the lotto. If you are honestly engaged in labor trying to make a living then you are not gambling. Think of the Pioneers who were all farmers. You would probably judge that is gambling it was well.

Plant the crops. Maybe they come up maybe they don't.

What was Joseph Smith's means of earning a living? Was he a gambler?

If your ancestors were farmers than you come from a long line of gamblers.

If you work for someone who has his own business or even a large corporation, then you are supporting gambling, and making more money for the Gambler than he is paying you. To me that is like indentured servitude.

Everything you do in life is a gamble to some extent or other. You just have to decide when it's sinful. To me it is sinful when you expect something for nothing.

 

The general counsel I hear is to generally avoid gambling.  Not limit how much you gamble.  Nobody gambles with nothing because all forms of gambling involve using some money... lottery tickets, slot machines, gaming tables, etc all take money to "play".

And FYI it is possible to farm without using any money.  Plants have seeds that can be saved and stored and used for growing more plants.  And buying land to farm on is not considered gambling because the guaranteed outcome is to get the land.

"I call it gambling when there is a risk of losing money is an attempt to gain more money when there is no guaranteed outcome."  Perhaps I should have emphasized the word NO ???