Bill “Papa” Lee Posted June 23, 2018 Posted June 23, 2018 (edited) Before I begin, this is not a political thread, so please do not try to make it so. Recently an Evangelical Pastor made news (or his former comments) by claiming (a rehash of an old story) that "a vote for Romney is a vote for Satan". During the campaign when Romney was on the Republican ticket, other Evangelical ministers boasted of how they got him defeated, by keeping their flock from the polls. In any event it was, Pastor Jeffers who made the comment years ago, and the Salt Lake Trib who ran the story again, as Romney is running for the Senate. So one morning a few weeks ago, "Fox and Friends" hosted Pastor Jeffers, along with a Jewish Rabbi, and a Catholic Priest (who is often on the show) dubbing it that, "it is a matter of a person's belief", (which is true). Pastor Jeffers again defended his position that he believes that only those who believe in Jesus Christ can be saved. The Rabbi defended him, saying that it is his right to believe as he does. The Catholic Priest stated that indeed Jesus Christ is our Savior, but he then went on to speak of God's infinite love, and spoke of all of those who lived before Jesus Christ, and even those who never learn of him (a mirror of our own beliefs). While he was explaining that none of us know of the boundless love of God, and struggle to put it in human terms. Pastor Jeffers was smiling to the point of laughing at "Father Dave" (I believe he is called). So, I wondered why they did not ask for and have a Mormon on the show, or why no one pointed out that we too believe in Jesus Christ as our Savior? I then assumed that the host who was the most vocal believes that we are not Christian (and since he introduced it, probably set it up, to reflect his own views), or do not believe in Jesus Christ. Father Dave (again I hope that is his name) has defended Mormons in the past, so I was unsure why he didn't do it on this day. Then I wondered why the other two hosts did not defend "our beliefs", and said nearly nothing. But, I just let it pass and gave it little more thought. That was until the other day when the lady on "Fox and Friends" who was there the day of the discussion, was excited to be welcoming home her Father and to the show, "Ambassador Jon Huntsman". On the day of the segment with Pastor Jeffers and other members of other Faiths, this young lady (a Mormon) sat mute, and made no effort to correct or call out Pastor Jeffers for referring, (by proxy) to Mormons as Satan. I have no idea if she is still a member or inactive, but she knows the truth that we do believe that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior. Yet she said nothing, not even when Pastor Jeffers nearly laughed out loud. To me it seemed both disturbing, and an act of betrayal. So again, this is not political, so please don't try to make it so. But it is disturbing to myself at least. Thankfully the segment ended broad smiles from Pastor Jeffers ended before it became laughter, and him attacking Father Dave's comments as being Mormonlike, or even Satanlike, via his unkind (and at best) if not evil (in the eyes of Pastor Jeffers), before they could leave his lips. Did anyone else see the story in the SLTrib, or the comments on Fox? If so, what are your feeling on both? Don't care how anyone feels about Romney, only want to know how people feel about both Pastor Jeffers comments, and the boasting of EV Pastors keeping a Mormon out of the Whitehouse, by keeping them home on electron day 2012. I only want to discuss the merits and comments, not who should be in office of any kind. Not even who should be Dog Catcher. Thoughts? Edited June 23, 2018 by Bill “Papa” Lee
The Nehor Posted June 23, 2018 Posted June 23, 2018 On the bright side he is right and only Christians will receive a fulness of salvation and idolaters like all those false Christians will probably end up burning in hell so I am not sure he will be so smug about bashing us at that point. For those who would challenge me on how abhorrent my view is I would point out that in Lehi's vision only the mockers in the Great and Spacious building fall. It is not specific as to what happens to those standing at the tree of life mocking those in the great and spacious. I am hoping they get candy.
Rain Posted June 23, 2018 Posted June 23, 2018 Your title seems you want something different than the post. You found something disturbing about our beliefs or abut how others felt about our beliefs? How did they keep Mormons home on election day?
sunstoned Posted June 23, 2018 Posted June 23, 2018 I wouldn't get all wrapped around the axles over some arrogant Evangelical Pastor that thinks his interpretation of a iron age text gives him the right to speak for god or to tell people how to vote. 1
Calm Posted June 23, 2018 Posted June 23, 2018 (edited) 17 hours ago, Rain said: Your title seems you want something different than the post. You found something disturbing about our beliefs or abut how others felt about our beliefs? How did they keep Mormons home on election day? The boast, I believe, is they kept their own flock, EVs (Republicans), home so the Mormon lost. Considering how many felt about Democrats, that is like bragging about cutting off your own leg so someone you don't like won't ask to dance with you. Edited June 23, 2018 by Calm
rpn Posted June 23, 2018 Posted June 23, 2018 Ambassador Huntsman and his family (this daughter presumably included) are known for being conciliatory rather than calling others out. Is this the daughter that is working for the news organization? If so, then she wouldn't have sought to become part of the show, other than in that role. "pray for them who despitefully use you", which is a lot better than getting riled up about it. I've written more than once to the reporters/producers/authors of things that are inaccurate. If it is ignorance, a letter can help. 1
Guest Posted June 23, 2018 Posted June 23, 2018 10 hours ago, Rain said: Your title seems you want something different than the post. You found something disturbing about our beliefs or abut how others felt about our beliefs? How did they keep Mormons home on election day? Sorry, let me take a look and see if I can fix this.
Guest Posted June 23, 2018 Posted June 23, 2018 10 hours ago, Rain said: Your title seems you want something different than the post. You found something disturbing about our beliefs or abut how others felt about our beliefs? How did they keep Mormons home on election day? Fixed it, thank you.
Guest Posted June 23, 2018 Posted June 23, 2018 2 hours ago, rpn said: Ambassador Huntsman and his family (this daughter presumably included) are known for being conciliatory rather than calling others out. Is this the daughter that is working for the news organization? If so, then she wouldn't have sought to become part of the show, other than in that role. "pray for them who despitefully use you", which is a lot better than getting riled up about it. I've written more than once to the reporters/producers/authors of things that are inaccurate. If it is ignorance, a letter can help. Yes, she is the regular host on the morning show.
Guest Posted June 23, 2018 Posted June 23, 2018 9 hours ago, Calm said: The boast, I believe, is they kept their own flick, EVs (Republicans), home so the Mormon lost. Considering how many felt about Democrats, that is like bragging about cutting off your own leg so someone you don't like won't ask to dance with you. So true, and they complained for the next four years. Even though they boasted for keeping "Satan out".
Tacenda Posted June 23, 2018 Posted June 23, 2018 I wondered if we were believing Satan or listening to him, when he tells Eve to partake of the fruit. Why isn't she following God and not Satan? That was something I worried about during the height of my faith crisis. So maybe this is where the Christians believe we follow the wrong entity. If I'm wrong than please share.
Guest Posted June 23, 2018 Posted June 23, 2018 4 hours ago, Tacenda said: I wondered if we were believing Satan or listening to him, when he tells Eve to partake of the fruit. Why isn't she following God and not Satan? That was something I worried about during the height of my faith crisis. So maybe this is where the Christians believe we follow the wrong entity. If I'm wrong than please share. If you can expand on that a bit more, maybe I could. The events in the Garden of Eden is one area where every monotheist Faith believes. So, not sure where the crisis is with this Biblical narrative, nor what it means in relation to the OP?
Tacenda Posted June 23, 2018 Posted June 23, 2018 2 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: If you can expand on that a bit more, maybe I could. The events in the Garden of Eden is one area where every monotheist Faith believes. So, not sure where the crisis is with this Biblical narrative, nor what it means in relation to the OP? Non-LDS Christians believe Eve was wrong and sinned. LDS think the opposite. Satan said we can be Gods and Goddesses, the non-LDS Christians believe we could have stayed with God in the Garden and even have offspring. But it varies within the Christian faiths.
Tacenda Posted June 24, 2018 Posted June 24, 2018 I listen to podcasts every night to help me sleep and run out of them quickly, but happened upon this one that was at a Sunstone Symposium last year. https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/teach-from-the-little-box-blurring-the-lines-between-mainstream-christianity-and-mormonism/ JANUARY 1, 2017 Teach from the Little Box: Blurring the Lines between Mainstream Christianity and Mormonism "If you ask Mormons if we should always believe God and always disbelieve Lucifer, they will say yes. However, in the story of the Fall, we are supposed to believe Lucifer and not God. This presentation examines this oddity and proposes that we’ve been misinterpreting this story for a long time. What happens when we decide to believe God instead?" Me: The above is something I'd never thoroughly thought of and he includes scripture that backs up that Lucifer lied to Adam and Eve. So I think this is exactly why the preacher equated Satan/Lucifer to Mormonism teachings. But the EV's are after us because they supposedly love us and don't want us falling for this great lie. Me? I'm not sure what to believe anymore.
cinepro Posted June 24, 2018 Posted June 24, 2018 (edited) On 6/22/2018 at 8:24 PM, Bill "Papa" Lee said: Before I begin, this is not a political thread, so please do not try to make it so. Recently an Evangelical Pastor made news (or his former comments) by claiming (a rehash of an old story) that "a vote for Romney is a vote for Satan". During the campaign when Romney was on the Republican ticket, other Evangelical ministers boasted of how they got him defeated, by keeping their flock from the polls. In any event it was, Pastor Jeffers who made the comment years ago, and the Salt Lake Trib who ran the story again, as Romney is running for the Senate. Bill, there are two problems here. First, you're watching Fox News. I would quit that as soon as possible and find better sources for "news" (even conservative sources). Second, a simple Google search shows that evangelicals did show up and vote for Romney in 2012: Election 2012 Post Mortem: White Evangelicals and Support for Romney Quote [W]hite evangelical Protestants voted as heavily for Romney as they did for the GOP candidates in 2008 and 2004, and they made up about the same share of the electorate as they did in the two previous elections. So regardless of what Pastor Jeffs (or other evangelical pastors) think did or didn't happen in 2012, the data doesn't seem to support evangelicals as having stayed home. As for the "satan" claim, I would cut Pastor Jeffs some slack, because he might have heard the Mormons claim Jesus told Joseph Smith that other Christian creeds were an "abomination" to him. Faced with such a claim, a non-Mormon Christian is faced with either believing Jesus actually did say such a thing and then converting to Mormonism, or believing Jesus didn't say such a thing and either Joseph Smith was lying, or it wasn't really Jesus talking to him. And whether lying or deceived, it would be easy to attribute such deception to Satan. It might not be polite, but it certainly is logically and doctrinally sound. Edited June 24, 2018 by cinepro 3
Guest Posted June 24, 2018 Posted June 24, 2018 5 minutes ago, cinepro said: Bill, there are two problems here. First, you're watching Fox News. I would quit that as soon as possible and find better sources for "news" (even conservative sources). Second, a simple Google search shows that evangelicals did show up and vote for Romney in 2012: Election 2012 Post Mortem: White Evangelicals and Support for Romney So regardless of what Pastor Jeffs (or other evangelical pastors) think did or didn't happen in 2012, the data doesn't seem to support evangelicals as having stayed home. Wow, I know they voted. My comments were reflective of the comments of the many Pastors who made them. I watch all forms of news, but did not expect that dig about where I saw the story. Who knew?
Guest Posted June 24, 2018 Posted June 24, 2018 17 hours ago, Tacenda said: Non-LDS Christians believe Eve was wrong and sinned. LDS think the opposite. Satan said we can be Gods and Goddesses, the non-LDS Christians believe we could have stayed with God in the Garden and even have offspring. But it varies within the Christian faiths. Satan did not say they would become "gods and goddesses". Adam and Eve were immortal, and mortality is required for procreation. Adam and Eve were so innocent, so unaware they did not even know they were naked. Something they needed to know, to be attacked to one another...a must for procreation. But here is what really happened, and what Satan said, and what God said... (Genesis 3: 5 ) "...ye shall be as gods" Then God himself said, (Genesis 3: 22) "And the Lord God said, Behold the man has become as one of us,...". The scriptures are always best that quoted what others said they say, in order to discredit our Faith.
Tacenda Posted June 24, 2018 Posted June 24, 2018 26 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: Satan did not say they would become "gods and goddesses". Adam and Eve were immortal, and mortality is required for procreation. Adam and Eve were so innocent, so unaware they did not even know they were naked. Something they needed to know, to be attacked to one another...a must for procreation. But here is what really happened, and what Satan said, and what God said... (Genesis 3: 5 ) "...ye shall be as gods" Then God himself said, (Genesis 3: 22) "And the Lord God said, Behold the man has become as one of us,...". The scriptures are always best that quoted what others said they say, in order to discredit our Faith. Listen to it at mark 46:04 if you can, and tell me what you think.
Guest Posted June 24, 2018 Posted June 24, 2018 10 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Listen to it at mark 46:04 if you can, and tell me what you think. Who is sitting in a Temple (our Temple) on a throne proclaiming himself to be "God". Satan is the "Father of lies", are you are suggesting that his lies not be taught so we can recognize them. I fear that so many cannot see the forest for the trees, but those who feed on steady diet of anti-Mormon books or ever podcasts, will only be able to think they are their own. The only one in the Temple proclaiming himself to be God, and to act as God, is God the Father casting Satan out. However, it is interesting that you ignored the actual words of Satan from scripture, no that of God's, and focus only upon the words of a man with only one agenda. Yet reject the words of the "Son of man". Also to use this thread to suggest "what" that, "a vote for a Mormon is a vote for Satan"? I pointed to the "half truth he told (satan) told, and the part that "was true", and that God himself affirmed, and in so doing you want to point my attention to an anti-Mormon podcast. I do not need someone else to tell me what I think. I listened to every word, and wonder how he and so many others miss the point entirely. Either way, please don't use this thread to derail it into a desire to attack the Faith. There are plenty of threads where this is fair game. This thread was not about being anti-Mormon, it was to point out a pathetic attack and comment comparing a Mormon candidate to Satan. So if you believe this, and are using this this thread to suggest this Mormons are comparable to Satan, then you must believe it of me. So please do not use a thread on one topic to post links to anti-Mormon podcasts, and please not mine. 1
Tacenda Posted June 24, 2018 Posted June 24, 2018 38 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: Who is sitting in a Temple (our Temple) on a throne proclaiming himself to be "God". Satan is the "Father of lies", are you are suggesting that his lies not be taught so we can recognize them. I fear that so many cannot see the forest for the trees, but those who feed on steady diet of anti-Mormon books or ever podcasts, will only be able to think they are their own. The only one in the Temple proclaiming himself to be God, and to act as God, is God the Father casting Satan out. However, it is interesting that you ignored the actual words of Satan from scripture, no that of God's, and focus only upon the words of a man with only one agenda. Yet reject the words of the "Son of man". Also to use this thread to suggest "what" that, "a vote for a Mormon is a vote for Satan"? I pointed to the "half truth he told (satan) told, and the part that "was true", and that God himself affirmed, and in so doing you want to point my attention to an anti-Mormon podcast. I do not need someone else to tell me what I think. I listened to every word, and wonder how he and so many others miss the point entirely. Either way, please don't use this thread to derail it into a desire to attack the Faith. There are plenty of threads where this is fair game. This thread was not about being anti-Mormon, it was to point out a pathetic attack and comment comparing a Mormon candidate to Satan. So if you believe this, and are using this this thread to suggest this Mormons are comparable to Satan, then you must believe it of me. So please do not use a thread on one topic to post links to anti-Mormon podcasts, and please not mine. I thought I was trying to show why the pastor was saying what he did, didn't mean to derail by mixing in my worries or my questions. The podcast was by an LDS man, but maybe he isn't so much anymore. To the point on why Jon Huntsman's daughter Abby didn't speak up...here is a quote from this link about her and her father...https://www.nationalreview.com/2011/06/how-mormon-jon-huntsman-katrina-trinko/ "In Huntsman’s personal life, there are signs that he does not strictly adhere to Mormon practices. While Mormons are forbidden to consume alcohol, Huntsman occasionally drank the bajisu liquor that is “mandatory” at official dinners in China, according to RealClearWorld.com. (The report added, however, that Huntsman would discreetly try to switch to water after his first glass.) The Huntsmans’ second daughter, 25-year-old Abby, was married last year at the (Episcopal) National Cathedral, with the dean of the cathedral performing the ceremony. During his first weekend home from China, Huntsman chose to attend a non-denominational church in South Carolina rather than any of the Mormon churches in the area."
Guest Posted June 24, 2018 Posted June 24, 2018 37 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I thought I was trying to show why the pastor was saying what he did, didn't mean to derail by mixing in my worries or my questions. The podcast was by an LDS man, but maybe he isn't so much anymore. To the point on why Jon Huntsman's daughter Abby didn't speak up...here is a quote from this link about her and her father...https://www.nationalreview.com/2011/06/how-mormon-jon-huntsman-katrina-trinko/ "In Huntsman’s personal life, there are signs that he does not strictly adhere to Mormon practices. While Mormons are forbidden to consume alcohol, Huntsman occasionally drank the bajisu liquor that is “mandatory” at official dinners in China, according to RealClearWorld.com. (The report added, however, that Huntsman would discreetly try to switch to water after his first glass.) The Huntsmans’ second daughter, 25-year-old Abby, was married last year at the (Episcopal) National Cathedral, with the dean of the cathedral performing the ceremony. During his first weekend home from China, Huntsman chose to attend a non-denominational church in South Carolina rather than any of the Mormon churches in the area." It matters not what Jon Huntsman does in his personal life, or his daughter. She knows that we believe in Jesus Christ and she said nothing. Also your attempts to slip in the idea that our Temples are where Satan is God, is deplorable. BTW, the Temple where it speaks of this happening is in the Temple that will be built in Jerusalem. You can't make the point that our Temple is theTemple of God, where Satan declares himself as God, if we were never of Gid. If our Faith is born of Satan as you and the podcast suggest, then it is not the Temple spoken of in the Bible. You can't have it both ways, and if this is what you believe, then by extension you believe us all to be worshipers of Satan, and you are in league with those who hold up signs and yell profanity as our wives and children are going into General Conference,to listen to our prophets of Satan. I don't worship Satan, nor anyone I know. I would take you through the countless Biblical scriptures that disprove what you have come to believe. Also the countless scriptures that teach and make clear the blessing to those who truly seek Jesus Christ, that of (in God's own words), "ye are all gods, and children of the Most High", the teachings of the Apostles that tell us that we "will be joint heirs with Christ, (and) all that the Father has we shall have". About Paul being "caught up into the third heaven", and so many others. But alas this would required so much time, and it would seem you would not and are not receptive to anything positive and true about the Faith we once shared. The OP was to point out the bigotry of those who profess to be Christian toward our Faith, and to question why the only Mormon there said nothing. I did not expect someone here to agree that a vote for a Mormon is a vote for Satan. 1
Tacenda Posted June 24, 2018 Posted June 24, 2018 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: It matters not what Jon Huntsman does in his personal life, or his daughter. She knows that we believe in Jesus Christ and she said nothing. Also your attempts to slip in the idea that our Temples are where Satan is God, is deplorable. BTW, the Temple where it speaks of this happening is in the Temple that will be built in Jerusalem. You can't make the point that our Temple is theTemple of God, where Satan declares himself as God, if we were never of Gid. If our Faith is born of Satan as you and the podcast suggest, then it is not the Temple spoken of in the Bible. You can't have it both ways, and if this is what you believe, then by extension you believe us all to be worshipers of Satan, and you are in league with those who hold up signs and yell profanity as our wives and children are going into General Conference,to listen to our prophets of Satan. I don't worship Satan, nor anyone I know. I would take you through the countless Biblical scriptures that disprove what you have come to believe. Also the countless scriptures that teach and make clear the blessing to those who truly seek Jesus Christ, that of (in God's own words), "ye are all gods, and children of the Most High", the teachings of the Apostles that tell us that we "will be joint heirs with Christ, (and) all that the Father has we shall have". About Paul being "caught up into the third heaven", and so many others. But alas this would required so much time, and it would seem you would not and are not receptive to anything positive and true about the Faith we once shared. The OP was to point out the bigotry of those who profess to be Christian toward our Faith, and to question why the only Mormon there said nothing. I did not expect someone here to agree that a vote for a Mormon is a vote for Satan. I don't in a million years think a vote for a Mormon is a vote for Satan. I believe LDS are true Christians too. I stay in for this reason. But you probably don't believe me. Also, I am right now like a child in the world, don't know anything right now, but I do know LDS wholeheartedly are Christians. Edited June 24, 2018 by Tacenda
Guest Posted June 24, 2018 Posted June 24, 2018 47 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I don't in a million years think a vote for a Mormon is a vote for Satan. I believe LDS are true Christians too. I stay in for this reason. But you probably don't believe me. Also, I am right now like a child in the world, don't know anything right now, but I do know LDS wholeheartedly are Christians. I will take you at your word, it is only the link you posted that seems to say otherwise. If you tell me you believe we are Christian, then I believe you, sorry for any confusion.
Stargazer Posted June 24, 2018 Posted June 24, 2018 4 hours ago, cinepro said: Bill, there are two problems here. First, you're watching Fox News. I would quit that as soon as possible and find better sources for "news" (even conservative sources). I hear this foolish comment frequently enough that I really have to ask you a question or two. 1. What is wrong with Fox News that isn't also wrong with ABC, CBS, NBC News and CNN? 2. Name a better source for "news".
Calm Posted June 24, 2018 Posted June 24, 2018 6 hours ago, Tacenda said: "If you ask Mormons if we should always believe God and always disbelieve Lucifer, they will say yes. However, in the story of the Fall, we are supposed to believe Lucifer and not God. This presentation examines this oddity and proposes that we’ve been misinterpreting this story for a long time. What happens when we decide to believe God instead?" Me: The above is something I'd never thoroughly thought of and he includes scripture that backs up that Lucifer lied to Adam and Eve. So I think this is exactly why the preacher equated Satan/Lucifer to Mormonism teachings. But the EV's are after us because they supposedly love us and don't want us falling for this great lie. Me? I'm not sure what to believe anymore. This is completely false that we are supposed to disbelieve God and believe Satan. Satan said more than one thing, one was a lie: you will not die. There is nothing in that lie that Mormons are supposed to believe. Mormons also believe that Satan lied and God spoke the truth.
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