Update on McKenna Denson Lawsuit (Hearing Schedule)

[JulieM]

12 minutes ago, smac97 said:

From an interview with Elders Soares and Gong:

I think this is a more correct, and helpful, characterization of what LDS bishops are trying to do.

I contrast Elder Gon's remarks ("Most of our bishops...are very concerned for youth, for women, for anyone who is vulnerable...") with the fearmongering and dishonesty coming from people like Craig Vernon.

Thanks,

-Smac

Members have been instructed (at least in the past) to go first to their church leaders when abuse happens.  Then too often, this member hears that it’s best to keep it in house and work with the abuser (especially if he’s an active member) to help him repent.  The member takes their cue from their leader as they watch them NOT go to the police.  This is what needs to end.

Maybe church leaders should be more vocal about members contacting the police first and then following up with getting support and help healing from their church leaders second?

[smac97]

22 hours ago, JulieM said:

Members have been instructed (at least in the past) to go first to their church leaders when abuse happens.  

Society teaches children to go to someone they trust when something bad happens to them.  That could be a parent, a teacher, a police officer . . . or a religious leader.

Now, it so happens that in some circumstances that parent or teacher or police officer or religious leader fails to take appropriate action in response to allegations of abuse.  That's what happened here.  Kristy Johnson's bishops failed to act property.  Kristy Johnson's mother failed to act properly.  The police, when they were eventually notified, apparently never arrested or sought a prosecution against Ms. Johnson's parents.  That is a great tragedy. 

In the ensuing decades, the LDS Church has recognized this and has gone to great lengths to give bishops training and resources as to how to handle allegations of sexual abuse.  And yet here we have Craig Vernon and Ms. Johnson publicly accusing the LDS Church of "protecting sexual predators" at the expense of children.  No acknowledgment of the Church's efforts to improve.  At all.  And no consideration given to the injury they are possibly doing to children by instilling them a sense of fear and distrust and loathing of bishops - the very people who the Church is training to properly handle these sorts of allegations.

What's next?  Is Mr. Vernon going to publicly encourage children to not tell their parents about sexual abuse they encounter?  After all, if Kristy Johnson's mother failed to act, then that must mean that all mothers everywhere are "protecting sexual predators."

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Then too often, this member hears that it’s best to keep it in house and work with the abuser (especially if he’s an active member) to help him repent.  

What does this mean?  How many are there in "too often?"

Bishops in 2018 are, in the main, not telling victims of abuse "that it’s best to keep it in house and work with the abuser," and those few that do are going against the training and teachings of the LDS Church.

Quote

The member takes their cue from their leader as they watch them NOT go to the police.  This is what needs to end.

Is it possible that we are witnessing something of a "moral panic" on this issue?  I have a friend who has been a bishop for several years.  He has said that he has called the bishop's helpline numerous times, that nobody has ever given an instruction to him anything like "it’s best to keep it in house and work with the abuser," and that he has worked hard to make sure that the members of his ward are safe from abuse, both in the moment and long-term.  He is doing these things because he's been trained by the Church, and because he has good resources available to him.  

The Church's training of its bishops is working.  The Church facilitates the reporting of sexual abuse where required by law, such as in this recent story:

Quote

An Arizona judge is being investigated on allegations of sexually abusing a girl from when she was 13 until she reached adulthood, The Associated Press has learned.

The alleged victim, now 25, told investigators last year that Pinal County Superior Court Judge Steven Fuller touched her genitals and buttocks repeatedly and also showed her pornography, according to a police report obtained by The Associated Press.

...

The alleged abuse occurred years ago and was reported in late September to police in the Phoenix suburb of Mesa by a lawyer for the Mormon church who said the alleged victim revealed the alleged abuse to her bishop. She spoke with investigators several weeks later, saying she was coming forward after being encouraged to do by Paul Babeu, a family friend who was the Pinal County Sheriff from 2009 through 2016.

...

The lawyer for the Mormon church went to police in Mesa, thinking that was where some of the alleged abuse occurred. Mesa police initially investigated but turned over the case to Pinal County authorities after discovering the alleged abuse happened in Pinal County.

Now how is it that "a lawyer for the Mormon church" came to be involved in this matter, when the disclosure of abuse was made by the abuse victim "to her bishop?"  The answer is . . . the Church's training and resources.  Bishops in the U.S. and Canada have a "help line" connected to a law firm (Kirton & McConkie) that they can (and are specifically instructed to) call whenever allegations of abuse or serious misconduct are disclosed to a bishop.  The laws of the various states (and Canadian provinces) vary, so the law firm helps the local bishop in determining which disclosures are necessarily to be reported to law enforcement, which disclosures might need to be reported, and which disclosures which must not be reported.  When a bishop is obligated to disclose, the attorneys at Kirton & McConkie often make the report on behalf of the bishop.  This is how the "lawyer for the Mormon church" became involved in the above story.

So the Church already has some pretty good safeguards in place.  The Law of Chastity.  Clear policies for when priesthood leaders are meeting with youth or women (they are to be chaperoned).  A published-to-the-world "zero tolerance" policy for abuse by ecclesiastical leaders.  A helpline staffed with lawyers to help local leaders navigate legal complexities that can arise.  Sadly, there are still bad people in the world who will work to circumvest these safeguards.  

None of this is being acknowledged by the execrable Craig Vernon, who knows about all of these efforts, but also knows that these efforts undermine the false narrative he is crafting against the LDS Church.  And that narrative is useful for filing lawsuits, which in turn generate notoriety for him and sometimes hefty financial payouts as well.

I've long been disgusted at race hustlers like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson, who make money off racial discord in society, and hence have an incentive to foment and exacerbate racial discord in society, and hence actually go out and act on that incentive.  At this point, I'm inclined to categorize Craig Vernon as about on par with these whackdoodles.  He's affirmatively injuring society by making false accusations and spreading fear and resentment and distruct, all so he can make a buck and get his name in the media.  That's pretty vile.

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Maybe church leaders should be more vocal about members contacting the police first and then following up with getting support and help healing from their church leaders second?

Have you ever worked with victims of sexual abuse (particularly by family members)?  As I see it three of the biggest impediments to them getting help are A) a feeling of helplessness, a lack of control over their lives, and B) profound confusion and despair at the abuse, and C) misplaced feelings of shame and guilt.  Going to the police can come across as exacerbating these things. 

If the police get involved, then the abuser may end up getting arrested (which can be distressing when it's a family member, even to the victim). 

If the police get involved, then the "secret" is out, which may enhance the confusion / despair / shame / guilt (at least that's the fear the victim may have).

If the police get involved, then the police (and/or DCFS) intrude into the home, ask very sensitive questions, and do so by the coercive power of government.  The victim's sense of helplessness or lack of control might actually get worse (again, that's the fear the victim may have at the prospect of contacting the police).

And so it goes.  But you know what?  The police and DCFS still need to be involved.  That is the decision our society has made, and I think it's a necessary one.  So my point is that sometimes the victim may not want to call the police (because of the above concerns), which is why a disclosure to the bishop becomes so valuable.  Bishops, after all, are generally good and decent men, and they have an obligation to monitor the welfare of their flock, and in most jurisdictions they have a legal obligation to report most allegations of abuse.  The Church, recognizing this, has spent considerable time and effort to create a helpline for bishops, a helpline that works (see above).  Bishops are not perfect, but they are clearly a net benefit in terms of addressing allegations of abuse.

And yet we have people likes of Craig Vernon, who goes out of his way to distort and hide what the Church has been doing about this issue, who is so vested in his opposition to the LDS Church (and, I think, his financial incentives stemming from his various lawsuits against the Church) that he is publicly trying to make LDS kids terrified and suspicious and distrustful of their church and their church leaders.

It's a pretty disgusting display.

-Smac

Edited June 30, 2018 by smac97

[Amulek]

40 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Members have been instructed (at least in the past) to go first to their church leaders when abuse happens.

When was the last time "members have been instructed...to go first to their church leaders?" I recently turned forty and I can honestly say that I do not recall ever being so instructed.

Maybe this was a prior generation thing, or maybe it's a Utah thing, or maybe my experience is just atypical. 

 

[ALarson]

1 hour ago, Amulek said:

When was the last time "members have been instructed...to go first to their church leaders?" I recently turned forty and I can honestly say that I do not recall ever being so instructed.

Maybe this was a prior generation thing, or maybe it's a Utah thing, or maybe my experience is just atypical. 

 

When you search abuse on lds.org, here is what a member is told to do (no mention of contacting the police):

https://www.lds.org/topics/abuse?lang=eng

 

Quote

 

Victims of abuse should seek help immediately, normally from their bishop or branch president. His first responsibility is to help those who have been abused and to protect those who may be vulnerable to future abuse.

Victims of abuse should be assured that they are not to blame for the harmful behavior of others. They do not need to feel guilt. If they have been a victim of rape or other sexual abuse, whether they have been abused by an acquaintance, a stranger, or even a family member, victims of sexual abuse are not guilty of sexual sin.

Victims of abuse can seek help from their priesthood leader to guide them through the process of emotional healing. Through the blessings of the gospel, victims of abuse can stop the cycle of abuse and be freed from the suffering they have experienced.

 

 

 

 

[ALarson]

1 hour ago, JulieM said:

Members have been instructed (at least in the past) to go first to their church leaders when abuse happens.  Then too often, this member hears that it’s best to keep it in house and work with the abuser (especially if he’s an active member) to help him repent.  The member takes their cue from their leader as they watch them NOT go to the police.  This is what needs to end.

Maybe church leaders should be more vocal about members contacting the police first and then following up with getting support and help healing from their church leaders second?

I agree.  There's certainly enough blame here to go around (regarding these past abuse stories that are coming out).  The church leaders should just own their share of it, apologize to victims who were failed by going to their leaders for help and then take more steps to prevent these types of things from happening again.  I do believe there is progress being made and I of course do not just blame church leaders....there are many factors involved.  But there needs to be more emphasis on getting help for the victim (including contacting legal authorities) and less on being concerned for the privacy and repentance of the abuser.  I've personally seen way too many very similar cases in my experience to say that the church leaders do not share in the responsibility here.  

[Jeanne]

It is a shame that many church's have not been able to put sin and crime in the same sentence.

[Amulek]

1 hour ago, ALarson said:

When you search abuse on lds.org, here is what a member is told to do (no mention of contacting the police):

Well, yeah, if you want help from the church then you would contact your bishop...who has been trained to report abuse when required.

I don't see anything which would indicate that one should not contact the police though. 

[ALarson]

24 minutes ago, Amulek said:

Well, yeah, if you want help from the church then you would contact your bishop...who has been trained to report abuse when required.

I don't see anything which would indicate that one should not contact the police though. 

Nice try, but this is the general information page regarding what abuse is and what a member should do if they are a victim of abuse.  

I believe this will change as more abuse cases from the past are made public regarding mishandling by local leaders (when members have gone to them to report abuse).  I know that leaders do the best they can, but there still needs to be more training done, IMO.

Edited June 29, 2018 by ALarson

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Nice try, but this is the general information page regarding what abuse is and what a member should do if they are a victim of abuse.  

I believe this will change as more abuse cases from the past are made public regarding mishandling by local leaders (when members have gone to them to report abuse).  I know that leaders do the best they can, but there still needs to be more training done, IMO.

You can always offer feedback on the page if you are concerned that people will read it as excluding going to the police instead of what you should be able to expect from the Church.

[Calm]

My concern with putting the presence of police on the seek help for abuse page is the potential to put people off of seeking help at all.

I am not saying it will happen, I am just suggesting there is enough research out there where people are making the choice not to go to the police rather than it just doesn't occur to them that maybe the concern should be first getting them to seek out help, such as bishops where most have been trained now to encourage reporting to police.  This may end up increasing reports to the police if victims feel they don't have to be alone to do so and they get the chance to reach out before having to face their fears about getting police involved.

[ALarson]

13 minutes ago, Calm said:

You can always offer feedback on the page if you are concerned that people will read it as excluding going to the police instead of what you should be able to expect from the Church.

That's a good idea and I'll take some time to submit some suggestions.  Don't get me wrong, I believe that members should also go to their leaders for support and healing (another topic, but the leaders need help in this area as well and I know they do the best they can).  Thanks, Calm.

[ALarson]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

I am not saying it will happen, I am just suggesting there is enough research out there where people are making the choice not to go to the police rather than it just doesn't occur to them that maybe the concern should be first getting them to seek out help, such as bishops where most have been trained now to encourage reporting to police.  This may end up increasing reports to the police if victims feel they don't have to be alone to do so and they get the chance to reach out before having to face their fears about getting police involved.

Just saw your edit  

I do believe that an abuse victim should do what is most comfortable for them.  I've just seen too many instances where a church leaders has talked a victim out of contacting the police and asked the victim to allow them to work with the abuser first (confession, repentance, etc.).  This most especially happens if the abuser is an active member of their ward, a friend. or another leader in the ward or stake.  This just happens way too often and the victim needs to be protected at all costs.  If it's a Father doing the abusing, the victim should never be sent home unless the abuser is removed from the home.  I know it's complicated and there are so many variables....but the victim needs to be considered and their safety way over worrying about embarrassing the abuser or the church.

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Just saw your edit  

I do believe that an abuse victim should do what is most comfortable for them.  I've just seen too many instances where a church leaders has talked a victim out of contacting the police and asked the victim to allow them to work with the abuser first (confession, repentance, etc.).  This most especially happens if the abuser is an active member of their ward, a friend. or another leader in the ward or stake.  This just happens way too often and the victim needs to be protected at all costs.  If it's a Father doing the abusing, the victim should never be sent home unless the abuser is removed from the home.  I know it's complicated and there are so many variables....but the victim needs to be considered and their safety way over worrying about embarrassing the abuser or the church.

Is this something that is currently happening or was prior to ten years ago?

I agree the victim needs to be protected.  Being put into child services isn't always putting their needs first though.  I am not sure about the options the police have.  Not sure if bishops are in a place where they should be judging that kind of stuff.  The nonabusing parent may be the worst one to decide.

Very few abusive situations are easy calls from what I have seen and read.  I honestly am unsure of what guidelines should be because there is the need to get police involved to protect both current and potential victims, but if that becomes a requirement, it might actually cut down reporting.  

Being able to discuss options and really believe they are options and not just a checklist procedure seems likely to increase reporting in my view.

Research needs to be done on multiple communities as different cultures will have different typical reactions.

[ALarson]

9 minutes ago, Calm said:

Is this something that is currently happening or was prior to ten years ago?

I agree the victim needs to be protected.  Being put into child services isn't always putting their needs first though.  I am not sure about the options the police have.  Not sure if bishops are in a place where they should be judging that kind of stuff.  The nonabusing parent may be the worst one to decide.

Very few abusive situations are easy calls from what I have seen and read.  I honestly am unsure of what guidelines should be because there is the need to get police involved to protect both current and potential victims, but if that becomes a requirement, it might actually cut down reporting.  

Being able to discuss options and really believe they are options and not just a checklist procedure seems likely to increase reporting in my view.

Yes, I agree.  I do feel that removing the abuser (suspected) from the home is better than disrupting or removing the child or youth, but sometimes there's no other option.  I know that once a report is filed with the police of suspected child abuse, the Father (or other abuser) is not allowed to be near the victim (or accuser) if they are a minor.  They are also not allowed to be around other minors until the case is investigated and a decision regarding charges takes place (at least in my state).  So, I understand that it's not an easy call....but I have honestly seen Bishops send the child home with their Father the night the abuse was reported (after getting a promise from the Father he'll "never do it again" and him crying and being remorseful).  That should never happen.  In every case I've been involved in, the Father did repeat the abuse and one even ended up abusing other children in the ward.

Edited June 29, 2018 by ALarson

[Calm]

Quote

have honestly seen Bishops send the child home with their Father the night the abuse was reported (after getting a promise from the Father he'll "never do it again" and him crying and being remorseful). That should never happen.  In every case I've been involved in, the Father did repeat the abuse and one even ended up abusing other children in the ward.

I agree that is completely wrong.  Without changing environmental factors, why would behaviour change?  Most abusive fathers in the church know they are not supposed to abuse their children according to church teaching and yet that awareness didn't stop them.  Why would just knowing the bishop knows (and gave no consequences of significance) make them change?  Remorseful in that moment may be true, but no guarantee that remorse will make a difference next time temptation hits.

Would a bishop send a confessed secret smoker home with a pack of cigarettes?  Or would he reconsider even if the smoker was remorseful.

How long ago did the last time happen?  

I have no doubt that there are those who are still ignoring the training thinking their own opinions are true wisdom and you telling me here will in no way tell us how Small or large the numbers are (it will just feel like they do).  I am just curious if this is the case for you.  Was this within the past 5 or 10 years?  If you don't feel comfortable sharing that info, no problem.

Edited June 29, 2018 by Calm

[ALarson]

25 minutes ago, Calm said:

I agree that is completely wrong.  Without changing environmental factors, why would behaviour change?  Most abusive fathers in the church know they are not supposed to abuse their children according to church teaching and yet that awareness didn't stop them.  Why would just knowing the bishop knows (and gave no consequences of significance) make them change?  Remorseful in that moment may be true, but no guarantee that remorse will make a difference next time temptation hits.

Would a bishop send a confessed secret smoker home with a pack of cigarettes?  Or would he reconsider even if the smoker was remorseful.

How long ago did the last time happen?  

I have no doubt that there are those who are still ignoring the training thinking their own opinions are true wisdom and you telling me here will in no way tell us how Small or large the numbers are (it will just feel like they do).  I am just curious if this is the case for you.  Was this within the past 5 or 10 years?  If you don't feel comfortable sharing that info, no problem.

That specific case happened about 10 years ago.  The Bishop involved was such a good, kind man who was in no way prepared to deal with this and I know he was doing what he thought was best.  He sincerely believed the Father and was the type who only could see good in people.  He was devastated with the results and heartbroken when other children in the ward were abused by this man.

I know that no leader would purposely harm a victim.  I just really believe there needs to be better training as soon as a leader is called.  I know this is being worked on and updated with more precautions being put in place.  I hate seeing so many past abuse stories come out, but if the result can be positive changes, then it's not all in vain.   It's really just a very complex topic, but one that is very much in the forefront right now.

Edited June 30, 2018 by ALarson

[USU78]

20 hours ago, Tacenda said:

https://www.good4utah.com/news/local-news/woman-claims-lds-church-leaders-harbored-her-abusive-father-from-law-enforcement/1272079320

The chickens are coming home to roost. 

ETA: Oops, one more.. pretty sure there will be an avalanche. http://interfaithradio.org/Story_Details/Forced_to_forgive_her_abuser__a_Mormon_woman_loses_her_faith

My anger might get the best of me, but I'm so sick of this.

A couple of thoughts here:

1.  Why presume that the attorney is speaking in good faith, without animus, and without pecuniary aims that might color his words?

2.  Why presume that the obviously distraught woman is being wholly accurate, consistent, and fair?

3.  Why presume that volunteer leaders inside the Church are always clannish, vindictive, and evil?

I urge you to read smac's analysis of the story and ask the question:  Upon whom is my trust and presumption of competence/good faith better bestowed, Plaintiffs and their lawyers, or volunteer church leaders?

I get anger issues.  I've got my own.

[changed]

16 hours ago, ALarson said:

Just saw your edit  

I do believe that an abuse victim should do what is most comfortable for them.  I've just seen too many instances where a church leaders has talked a victim out of contacting the police and asked the victim to allow them to work with the abuser first (confession, repentance, etc.).  This most especially happens if the abuser is an active member of their ward, a friend. or another leader in the ward or stake.  This just happens way too often and the victim needs to be protected at all costs.  If it's a Father doing the abusing, the victim should never be sent home unless the abuser is removed from the home.  I know it's complicated and there are so many variables....but the victim needs to be considered and their safety way over worrying about embarrassing the abuser or the church.

 

I will add that the children in these cases are sometimes so young, that they are not able to go to the police on their own.... 

Edited June 30, 2018 by changed

[changed]

On 6/28/2018 at 11:03 PM, Tacenda said:

https://www.good4utah.com/news/local-news/woman-claims-lds-church-leaders-harbored-her-abusive-father-from-law-enforcement/1272079320

The chickens are coming home to roost. 

ETA: Oops, one more.. pretty sure there will be an avalanche. http://interfaithradio.org/Story_Details/Forced_to_forgive_her_abuser__a_Mormon_woman_loses_her_faith

My anger might get the best of me, but I'm so sick of this.

 

..deleted.

Edited June 30, 2018 by changed

[juliann]

On 6/29/2018 at 12:54 PM, smac97 said:

I think he's saying that society in general was failing here.  The bishop should have called the police, yes.  And the mother.  And the police should have arrested the guy.  And the prosecutors should have tried him (if possible).  None of that happened.  But the retrospective focuses solely on the bishops' failurea.  Why is that?

I suspect there is a money trail. I believe what happened to her. I was right there with her until she got to the part about the police calling her mom and then hiding her dad and the police never showing up again. Worse, she then says that Orange County police AND social services, even the counselors, have no record of any reports or assistance. Even though I believe the abuse, this was ridiculous. If that is the case, why isn’t she suing Orange County for such an extensive cover up? Even more strange was her unemotional recitation of this impossibility with no attempt to explain how this could possibly happen. I was surprised she included that at all. It makes me question that police were ever called at all. She said her mother told them on her deathbed that she knew. Mind you, this was a six year old. That is where I would place the major blame. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

On 6/30/2018 at 9:45 AM, ALarson said:

I have honestly seen Bishops send the child home with their Father the night the abuse was reported (after getting a promise from the Father he'll "never do it again" and him crying and being remorseful).

You've literally seen this happen? And what did you do about it???

[ALarson]

18 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

You've literally seen this happen? And what did you do about it???

Well, I was the Elder's Quorum president at the time and I actually came with the Dad to see the Bishop (when he called him in after speaking to his little boy earlier that day).  The Mother came with the Relief Society president to be with her.  I wish I'd known then what I know now, because it does haunt me that I deferred to the inspiration and strong feelings of how the Bishop felt it should be handled.  I just trusted that he would know and do the right thing.  I really was so naive about this topic back then and have learned a lot, but it happened and It's not a proud memory of mine.  

Like I've already stressed, leaders need more training and this is changing which is excellent.  Most of us were woefully unprepared to deal with this type of thing even 10 years ago.

[jkwilliams]

3 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Well, I was the Elder's Quorum president at the time and I actually came with the Dad to see the Bishop (when he called him in after speaking to his little boy earlier that day).  The Mother came with the Relief Society president to be with her.  I wish I'd known then what I know now, because it does haunt me that I deferred to the inspiration and strong feelings of how the Bishop felt it should be handled.  I just trusted that he would know and do the right thing.  I really was so naive about this topic back then and have learned a lot, but it happened and It's not a proud memory of mine.  

Like I've already stressed, leaders need more training and this is changing which is excellent.  Most of us were woefully unprepared to deal with this type of thing even 10 years ago.

Wow, what an awful memory. I think everyone in the church has at least one regret for deferring to authority. I have a few. 

[ALarson]

Just now, jkwilliams said:

Wow, what an awful memory. I think everyone in the church has at least one regret for deferring to authority. I have a few. 

It's actually something I think about and shudder.  He went on to abuse other little boys in the ward and they eventually divorced (she threw him out) and moved away.  I still think about them a lot actually.  We are just so completely programmed to defer to our church leaders.....but I'm not controlled like that anymore and would stand up to anything like this today and would not allow it to happen.

[ALarson]

On 6/30/2018 at 8:00 AM, changed said:

 

I will add that the children in these cases are sometimes so young, that they are not able to go to the police on their own.... 

That is an excellent point.  We need to step up and protect the children (most especially....but any abuse victim who comes forward for help).  No more worrying about embarrassing the family or embarrassing the church.