Tithing & Coercion

[hope_for_things]

12 hours ago, thatjimguy said:

From what I understand, the bishops are not supposed to ask anything but if you were a full tithe payer. 

Except for the infamous "as directed by the spirit" clause.  

[hope_for_things]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

I'm happy you are amused. You'll note that I used both the Handbook and scripture in our exchanges. You invoked the Handbook to make your last point and invoked culture in my behalf (which was moving the goalposts so I ignored it). Do you disagree that there in more in the Handbook and scripture that shows the Church tithing standard refers to contributions to the Church treasury through her authorized agents (and not to other organizations)? And that this would be the context for tithing settlement and the temple recommend question? And that it was thus inappropriate to invoke "cultural interpretation" of the Church definition?

You haven't been able to show that the tithing system is coercive (except that you feel it could be), or that you see the difference between a freewill system and a potential individual's abuse of that system. For example, the offerings to the Church are freely given. The tithing standard that is set for settlement declaration and recommend purposes is consented to by virtue of membership. That is the system. You won't give factual examples of individual abuse of that system either (not that it defines the system) which seems to be your major concern, and I haven't seen any others offered in this thread.

Using references to inappropriate questioning about the standard of chastity shows that some individuals can mishandle or abuse the interview system (which isn't coercive either), but the connection between a temple recommend and chastity is not a coercive one, so you can't seem to make that point as well.

I don't want to just keep repeating what I said earlier, so it seems this exchange has run its course. 

[ksfisher]

12 hours ago, thatjimguy said:

From what I understand, the bishops are not supposed to ask anything but if you were a full tithe payer. 

I not aware of any direction in that regard.

[Scott Lloyd]

On 10/23/2018 at 11:18 AM, smac97 said:

See here:

And here:

Hope this helps.

I'm willing to listen to what Bill Reel has to say, I suppose.  But I place little trust in him.  Way too much of an axe-grinder.

Thanks,

-Smac

Bill Reel defines tithing as 10 percent of whatever is left over after he has paid for everything he needs and wants. 

Except that I don’t think he does even that anymore, as he has let it be known through his podcasts that he has ceased to attend church. 

[Bernard Gui]

On 10/23/2018 at 1:12 PM, CV75 said:

Can you share what the unique situation was for a bishop or stake president to question a member's response to the tithing question? It seems highly irregular, but I still would not use that as an example of coercion.

Of course it's a possibility, but for the most part it's an academic consideration that has been addressed by the instructions given leaders at least since 1970, perhaps in response to a particular concern in an era where in the USA at least folks were easily impressed by new business and employee benefits constructs.

I've had a member, unsolicited, explain to me how he calculated his tithe, counting his household income as a business expense from a concern that had a very small bottom line at the end of the year, and using that profit as "the increase" upon which to base his tithe. He asked me if I thought that was a full tithe. I simply read him the letter I mentioned above and reminded him it was up to him as to whether to declare a full tithe. I don't recall him asking me how I calculated my tithe; not sure how I would have answered him.

My instructions as a bishop were to accept “yes” as an answer to the question “Are you a full tithe payer?” and not to question the response.

[Bernard Gui]

On 10/24/2018 at 9:53 AM, HappyJackWagon said:

In many ways tithing settlement was nice. It was a great chance to chat with people but the actual "settlement" part of it seems quite heavy handed to me now.

I agree tithing settlement was an agreeable, even joyous, event. My tithing settlement question was simply, “Are you a full tithe payer?” I don’t see how that is heavy handed. Many members shared blessings and miracles they had experienced.

Edited October 26, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

My instructions as a bishop were to accept “yes” as an answer to the question “Are you a full tithe payer?” and not to question the response.

That certainly makes life easier! And is certainly not reflective of a coercive system.