Dehlin Taking Things out of Context

[EdGoble]

In the latest Mormon Stories Interview "Depression, Mormonism and Faith Transitions," Dehlin once again takes things out of context, where he says that it makes his interviewee "angry" that someone could have been healed if they just had more faith or not sinned.  And he points people to the resource on LDS.org where it talks about the spirit and how it is hard for people to feel it when they have a mental illness:

https://www.lds.org/mentalhealth?lang=eng

Nowhere is it implied that people have a guarantee of being healed from a mental illness if they had just been less of a sinner.  Nobody implied that more obedience was a guarantee of a cure for mental illness.  But people are told that they ought to get treatment for it.  If people want to be relieved of the symptoms of mental illness, they need to be on drugs that are prescribed to them, thanks to medical science, which the Lord has blessed us with, to help us deal with the human condition, not to be relieved entirely of it.

The whole thing is yet another ludicrous thing that takes everything totally out of context.

There is nothing in the gospel that guarantees that people will be healed or relieved of anything in the human condition just because of obedience.  But they are only promised that they will be healed if it is the will of God that they are healed, and seldom does healing mean people need to be perfect to be healed, but sometimes blessings work, and sometimes they don't, according to the will of the Lord.

Edited May 29, 2018 by EdGoble

[Robert F. Smith]

John Dehlin is supposed to be in a doctoral program in psychology, so that one would assume that he takes a professional interest in things like depression and mental illness.  One would hope that he would reflect standard scholarship in psychology in any critique he levels at the LDS Church.

[Duncan]

10 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

John Dehlin is supposed to be in a doctoral program in psychology, so that one would assume that he takes a professional interest in things like depression and mental illness.  One would hope that he would reflect standard scholarship in psychology in any critique he levels at the LDS Church.

I think he finished the program and is now a Dr.

[Kenngo1969]

Eh, wot, you say?  Doctor Dehlin found (or invented) yet another brickbat with which to beat the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?   

Shocking, I say!  Just shocking!

[hope_for_things]

7 hours ago, EdGoble said:

In the latest Mormon Stories Interview "Depression, Mormonism and Faith Transitions," Dehlin once again takes things out of context, where he says that it makes his interviewee "angry" that someone could have been healed if they just had more faith or not sinned.  And he points people to the resource on LDS.org where it talks about the spirit and how it is hard for people to feel it when they have a mental illness:

https://www.lds.org/mentalhealth?lang=eng

Nowhere is it implied that people have a guarantee of being healed from a mental illness if they had just been less of a sinner.  Nobody implied that more obedience was a guarantee of a cure for mental illness.  But people are told that they ought to get treatment for it.  If people want to be relieved of the symptoms of mental illness, they need to be on drugs that are prescribed to them, thanks to medical science, which the Lord has blessed us with, to help us deal with the human condition, not to be relieved entirely of it.

The whole thing is yet another ludicrous thing that takes everything totally out of context.

There is nothing in the gospel that guarantees that people will be healed or relieved of anything in the human condition just because of obedience.  But they are only promised that they will be healed if it is the will of God that they are healed, and seldom does healing mean people need to be perfect to be healed, but sometimes blessings work, and sometimes they don't, according to the will of the Lord.

I listened to the podcast this morning, and I'm not sure what you think was out of context, can you clarify?  

[cinepro]

9 hours ago, EdGoble said:

In the latest Mormon Stories Interview "Depression, Mormonism and Faith Transitions," Dehlin once again takes things out of context, where he says that it makes his interviewee "angry" that someone could have been healed if they just had more faith or not sinned.  And he points people to the resource on LDS.org where it talks about the spirit and how it is hard for people to feel it when they have a mental illness:

https://www.lds.org/mentalhealth?lang=eng

Nowhere is it implied that people have a guarantee of being healed from a mental illness if they had just been less of a sinner.  Nobody implied that more obedience was a guarantee of a cure for mental illness.  But people are told that they ought to get treatment for it.  If people want to be relieved of the symptoms of mental illness, they need to be on drugs that are prescribed to them, thanks to medical science, which the Lord has blessed us with, to help us deal with the human condition, not to be relieved entirely of it.

The whole thing is yet another ludicrous thing that takes everything totally out of context.

There is nothing in the gospel that guarantees that people will be healed or relieved of anything in the human condition just because of obedience.  But they are only promised that they will be healed if it is the will of God that they are healed, and seldom does healing mean people need to be perfect to be healed, but sometimes blessings work, and sometimes they don't, according to the will of the Lord.

I'm confused.  How are we supposed to judge whether his statements are in context if you don't provide a link to the podcast and timecodes for his statements?  You're asking us to make a judgement based on your paraphrasing.

 

 

[Robert F. Smith]

7 hours ago, Duncan said:

I think he finished the program and is now a Dr.

All the  more reason for him to exhibit standard professional scholarship in his anti-religiously oriented endeavors, rather than merely display his deep-seated hatred and prejudice toward the LDS Church.  As a PhD, he has strong ethical obligations to tell the truth, rather than engaging in disreputable sniping and obfuscation.

[Maidservant]

15 hours ago, EdGoble said:

In the latest Mormon Stories Interview "Depression, Mormonism and Faith Transitions," Dehlin once again takes things out of context, where he says that it makes his interviewee "angry" that someone could have been healed if they just had more faith or not sinned.  And he points people to the resource on LDS.org where it talks about the spirit and how it is hard for people to feel it when they have a mental illness:

https://www.lds.org/mentalhealth?lang=eng

Nowhere is it implied that people have a guarantee of being healed from a mental illness if they had just been less of a sinner.  Nobody implied that more obedience was a guarantee of a cure for mental illness.  But people are told that they ought to get treatment for it.  If people want to be relieved of the symptoms of mental illness, they need to be on drugs that are prescribed to them, thanks to medical science, which the Lord has blessed us with, to help us deal with the human condition, not to be relieved entirely of it.

The whole thing is yet another ludicrous thing that takes everything totally out of context.

There is nothing in the gospel that guarantees that people will be healed or relieved of anything in the human condition just because of obedience.  But they are only promised that they will be healed if it is the will of God that they are healed, and seldom does healing mean people need to be perfect to be healed, but sometimes blessings work, and sometimes they don't, according to the will of the Lord.

I can't speak to what Dehlin is saying (I didn't listen, and I never have); but I can attest that, as a 47 year old person raised in the gospel and having struggled with mental health issues most of my life, I absolutely thought that my problems were subject to prayer and repentance and faith and "get a better attitude"; and that there was not a way to speak about mental illness in the gospel, or at least in the culture which included the gospel.  The fact that a much better conversation about mental health has arisen is a great blessing.  But it wasn't always there.  It was a crying relief when the Church (and the larger culture) did start talking about it and accepting it as a real illness instead of just a function of one's faithfulness; such as Elder Holland (I think?) in General Conference once.  It wasn't that long ago--I was in my 30s maybe before it was talked about differently in the Church.  And that whole time--except for gradual personal revelations--I didn't know I was sick.  I just thought I was a bad, weak person.

Edited May 30, 2018 by Maidservant

[readstoomuch]

Unfortunately, medication also can seem to effect the ability to feel the Spirit.  At the very least effects how we feel or cognate.  

[Hamba Tuhan]

I personally find John's recent comments on the Atonement far more interesting and revealing. It appears that he has now nearly completed the trajectory he set for himself some years ago:

Quote

I realize now that the teaching of the Atonement also strikes at the core of much religious-based harm, in that it plants/spreads the idea that we are all inherently flawed/broken/bad/fallen/dirty/sinful, and are thus dependent on a set of beliefs and/or a man-led institution to become whole/fixed/good/saved/worthy/clean again ...

I love the teachings of Christ around kindness, charity/service, forgiveness, and love. The stuff around sin, atonement, and repentance, however ... I no longer love ... [ellipsis original]

 

[Jeanne]

6 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I personally find John's recent comments on the Atonement far more interesting and revealing. It appears that he has now nearly completed the trajectory he set for himself some years ago:

 

The quote..I just love.  It says a lot in how I feel about myself..and the self I want to become.

[Hamba Tuhan]

11 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

The quote..I just love.

To each her own. 

I prefer the teachings of Christ in their entirety.

[Duncan]

56 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I personally find John's recent comments on the Atonement far more interesting and revealing. It appears that he has now nearly completed the trajectory he set for himself some years ago:

 

how would we explain him wrong though? How do we have a healthy sense of worth all the while being told to "acknowledge your unworthiness before God at all times." Alma 38:14

[clarkgoble]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I personally find John's recent comments on the Atonement far more interesting and revealing. It appears that he has now nearly completed the trajectory he set for himself some years ago:

Fowlers stages of faith in a nutshell. 

I think fundamentally that is the challenge of these last days. People don't believe sin is real. How do you teach the atonement when people don't think it's necessary?

[Hamba Tuhan]

7 minutes ago, Duncan said:

How do we have a healthy sense of worth all the while being told to "acknowledge your unworthiness before God at all times." Alma 38:14

Has a personal encounter with the Lord or an application of His atoning power ever left you feeling worthless?

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

The quote..I just love.  It says a lot in how I feel about myself..and the self I want to become.

So you see no need for Christ then?  Since his Atonement is a false teaching in your view?  Just curious.

Edited May 30, 2018 by Calm

[Hamba Tuhan]

19 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

How do you teach the atonement when people don't think it's necessary?

This isn’t new, of course. The early apostles and their missionary companions faced the same issue as they ventured out of a Jewish context and into Gentile societies. 

Personally, I think the Atonement has to be experienced to be accepted. I’m currently teaching the temple prep lessons to my housemate. When he first started coming to church four years ago, he had no learnt sense of sin or redemption. But he liked how church made him feel, so he pressed forward. Last night in our lesson we discussed how thoroughly changed he now is ... and the consequent joy that has brought him. He said he always had a gnawing sense that there was something better/higher/nobler but didn’t even know where to look.

Where I live, we are in the midst of an explosion in demand for mental health services. Our local government has just pledged a huge injection of funds to provide psychological counselling for children. Children! At some point, the unhappiness and despair that are becoming the new normal will reach a tipping point, I believe. At least they will for those who, like my housemate, still maintain a sense that this is not how things are meant to be.

Will people be willing to experiment with Christ at that point? I think many will ... especially if they've seen what He does for us, our families and our communities.

Edited May 30, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Maidservant said:

I can't speak to what Dehlin is saying (I didn't listen, and I never have); but I can attest that, as a 47 year old person raised in the gospel and having struggled with mental health issues most of my life, I absolutely thought that my problems were subject to prayer and repentance and faith and "get a better attitude"; and that there was not a way to speak about mental illness in the gospel, or at least in the culture which included the gospel.  The fact that a much better conversation about mental health has arisen is a great blessing.  But it wasn't always there.  It was a crying relief when the Church (and the larger culture) did start talking about it and accepting it as a real illness instead of just a function of one's faithfulness; such as Elder Holland (I think?) in General Conference once.  It wasn't that long ago--I was in my 30s maybe before it was talked about differently in the Church.  And that whole time--except for gradual personal revelations--I didn't know I was sick.  I just thought I was a bad, weak person.

There still is a stigma attached to mental illness, but it is not limited to the Church. It's a difficult problem with no easy solution.

I agree mostly with what you say except I would change the word order in this sentence 

Quote

It was a crying relief when the Church (and the larger culture) did start talking about it and accepting it as a real illness instead of just a function of one's faithfulness; such as Elder Holland (I think?) in General Conference once.

to 

Quote

It was a crying relief when the larger culture (and the Church) did start talking about it and accepting it as a real illness instead of just a function of one's faithfulness; such as Elder Holland (I think?) in General Conference once.

and, the Conference talk was a wonderful milestone, but I received the same advice from my bishop and a counselor at BYU when I was experiencing severe clinical depression in 1968. Sister Gui and I have been recommending professional counseling, medical treatment, and faith and prayers to individuals experiencing mental health problems in our Addiction Recovery Group for 13 years as instructed in the ARP manuals.

Our family is blessed with the depression gene, so we have lots of experience. Medical help and counseling have been life-saving, but so have the comfort of faith and prayers and the assistance of the Spirit. I can personally attest to that.

 

Edited May 30, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[clarkgoble]

6 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

This isn’t new, of course. The early apostles and their missionary companions faced the same issue as they ventured out of a Jewish context and into Gentile societies. 

Except that there was something like a concept of sin in neoplatonism. Indeed Augustine's concept of sin owes more to neoplatonism than Christianity (IMO). You have privation versus turning to the One. While I'm not sure that's quite sin - although there's a very similar conception in D&C 93. The idea is that sin is privation or turning away or rejecting light. Evil becomes pure privation and sin is tied to this. (It's actually much more nuanced than that - so that's the first order approximation)

Among the Stoics, who in the first century were more common than the platonists, there wasn't a formal notion of sin. However there were similar things to sin that Paul actually builds common ground on in places like 1 Cor 7. Sin for the stoics is much more moral failing and to that degree common ground can be found. However for the Stoics the process is rather different from the atonement - although I actually think there's a lot of common ground. The Stoics had a lot of practical advice that I think works in practice. Particularly dealing with emotions and the like. 

Of course my initial statement was a bit of hyperbole, although I actually think there is a strong cultural move against the notion of sin. Particularly the way postmodernism (of a sort) undermines stable meanings. Oddly at the same time though there's a cultural rebirth of sin in notions of intersectionality. Indeed in some ways it's recreating many Christian conceptions but without God and with a different list of sins.

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

Indeed in some ways it's recreating many Christian conceptions but without God and with a different list of sins.

Oddly, I prefer the Saviour to be the one defining the sins.

[Bernard Gui]

46 minutes ago, Duncan said:

how would we explain him wrong though? How do we have a healthy sense of worth all the while being told to "acknowledge your unworthiness before God at all times." Alma 38:14

Remorse for sin can feel like depression. Sometimes depression comes along with the repentance process. In addiction recovery, there are steps where one deals with honest appraisal of one's character and actions, repentance, remorse, and reconciliation. Service to others (also a helpful remedy for depression) is an important factor in recovery.

Edited May 30, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Guest]

I recently stumbled into one of his podcasts, and I was quoted from the comments section. I had made two, one was quoted and one just mentioned. I had clicked on something completely unrelated, and found him discussing with two others the prank about the so-called apology on the Priesthood Ban. Even then there were omissions, and oversimplifications of Church Doctrine and policy. I explained the "Mormon bubble" in which he lives, has nothing on other parts of the country, and other Faith's when it comes to race relations. But I found out in the last 30 mins of the podcast, the goal is not accuracy alone, the the appearance of accuracy designed to cause others to question the Church. But, that was my only time ever hearing a podcast, and it's format, so if they day is the norm, then I am not surprised to hear that he did not give all the facts.  

[Duncan]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Has a personal encounter with the Lord or an application of His atoning power ever left you feeling worthless?

i'm supposed to say i'm worthless every time I pray so I don't know what to say!!!!! I have never had a personal encounter with the risen Christ, but I am not doing anything now so I guess he could come over, i'd have to clean up the place a bit. 

[sunstoned]

12 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Eh, wot, you say?  Doctor Dehlin found (or invented) yet another brickbat with which to beat the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?   

Shocking, I say!  Just shocking!

Did you listen to the podcast, or are you just jumping on the ad hominem hate wagon.

[Hamba Tuhan]

21 minutes ago, Duncan said:

 I am not doing anything now so I guess he could come over, i'd have to clean up the place a bit.

If He comes over even when you haven't 'cleaned up the place', how would that make you feel?

Cos that's what He does in my life, speaking metaphorically. He not only comes over when things are messy; He then cheerfully starts helping out with the cleaning and tidying and doesn't leave till things are looking much, much better.

I refuse to believe that in all your years in the Church, you've never experienced the joy of repentance!

On a personal note, it was my day to serve in the temple last Saturday. As my week progressed, I started to fall apart spiritually, and I felt completely unprepared to be in the House of the Lord. In such a state, it was super easy for me to 'acknowledge my unworthiness before God'. At the end of our training meeting, I was assigned to officiate in the next endowment session, which was due to start in 15 minutes. I headed straight to the room, sat in the officiator's chair, and smiled at the assembling patrons. Inside, I was still acknowledging my unworthiness and pleading for mercy!

As the lights dimmed and the ordinance began, joy flooded my whole being. Each word was spoken with a power that left me feeling like fireworks going off in my soul. They were delicious to me.

Instructions for those who pray in the temple are to prepare spiritually through fasting and pray so that we might genuinely offer up the words that those in the session need to hear spoken. As I sat in my chair, it was like a conduit from heaven opened, and entire phrases that were new to me were downloaded straight to my mind. They were so distinct that I could remember and repeat them over and over, and consequently I knew exactly what to say in my prayer.

When it was all over, I paused to thank the Lord for his mercy once again. 'Why', I asked, 'are You so good to me despite my unworthiness?'

And that's the miracle of it ...

Edited May 30, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan