Do you choose to believe?

[Rain]

I believe we choose to believe or not. It all has to do with those who have eyes to see and ears to hear. Laman and Lemuel saw an angel. You would think this would compel them to believe - and it did - for a little while. Then they were back to their old habits again. 

[Atheist Mormon]

13 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

2.  Faith is transmitted over the generations from patents and grandparents to children at a very high rate.  

I don't believe this is the case anymore, skepticism takes over......

[Exiled]

I think we have choices and the choices we make have consequences. I can choose to engage in risky activities like rock climbing or skydiving. I may have a thrilling time but I subject myself to the dangers of gravity and I may lose my life as a result. I can go down this path or that one and there are consequences that result from each choice I make.

I can certainly choose to believe in this or that but what are the consequences of each choice? A lot who followed the dot com craze in the late 90's were a lot poorer in the early 2000's. Those who cashed out early during the last real estate bubble had cash to scoop up real estate at low prices after the crash.

So, I think the proper question is not do you choose to believe as I think that is an easy "yes." Of course we choose and it really just seems to be more like a political slogan or empty affirmation. I think the better question is: what are the consequences of choosing to believe this or that?

[bluebell]

Like others have said, I don't think that belief is always a choice, but acting on it definitely is.  

[Eek!]

10 hours ago, Physics Guy said:

I think we do have a lot of freedom to choose our beliefs-in-practice. We can't just change them right away in an instant. That's like deciding not to think of a white elephant—ever again. Choosing your belief-in-practice is a matter of mental habit formation, and of how the correlations grow between your life and your thought. Over time, our minds change, anyway. To a great extent we can choose how they will change, over time. 

Yes, as we choose what our minds dwell on at any given moment, we are (inadvertently) choosing what thought-patterns get reinforced and therefore become our defaults, our beliefs-in-practice.  So as you point out we do choose our beliefs-in-practice, but they have a lot of inertia, so it takes some time. 

10 hours ago, Physics Guy said:

This is not exactly good news.

Actually I think it is extremely good news.  What has been our downfall is also our salvation, when used intelligently.  By consistently exercising our willpower at the thought level, we can make the kind of change that naturally shows up in our actions (practices).  This is far more promising than trying to exercise willpower down at the level of our actions, which is unlikely to work well over time because one part of our mind is trying to force another part of our mind to do something it doesn't want to do, and that part becomes more and more outraged.   Relying on willpower only at the level of actions is kinda like trying to win a soccer match when your entire team consists of only the goalie. 

If there is indeed a point at which the yoke becomes easy and the burden light, imo it probably starts with consciously, intelligently, and consistently choosing our thoughts, and then at some point there is a paradigm shift, and we find our default settings have been upgraded. 

Edited May 27, 2018 by Eek!

[Jeanne]

If we are of open mind..then each day we learn something..anything..spiritual or not that makes us think about being better.  Take things and go with it.  If it works, it becomes a part of ourselves..and it contributes to a belief of who are and what we want to become.  Take it as a basic to all things spiritual and you can take a learning process with prayer and decide what works for you.  It is not about feelings outside yourself..but within.  Then you grow. It is not about all the knowledge others have and preach..it is about the knowledge you have and where it will take you.

Edited May 27, 2018 by Jeanne

[Glenn101]

12 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I'll wager that Alma 32 is not familiar to most and that those who actually apply it are far more intellectually oriented to the sciences.

I only wager/bet for or against sure things. I respectfully decline to engage you on this. 

[CV75]

20 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

What percentage of Mormons do you imagine actually even know about Alma 32, much less practice those experimental principles?

I choose to believe it is enough of a % to change the world...! 

[CV75]

9 hours ago, Rain said:

I believe we choose to believe or not. It all has to do with those who have eyes to see and ears to hear. Laman and Lemuel saw an angel. You would think this would compel them to believe - and it did - for a little while. Then they were back to their old habits again. 

I would say that "seeing" compelled them to know, but they did not use their agency to leverage that knowledge into greater belief and faith, and as a result went back to their old ways and even degraded further.

[Robert F. Smith]

14 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

I don't believe this is the case anymore, skepticism takes over......

Wishful thinking.  The stats are very clear:  In the long term, it is precisely the most religious people who reproduce and who live healthy lives.  Secular millennials are not marrying in adequate numbers, and those who do are not having enough children to replace themselves.  Consequently, it is the secularists who slowly dissipate.  The demographics are very clear, whether we look at Orthodox Jews, Mormons, or other religious groups with high rates of fertility.

So, skepticism does take over, but only in an ever diminishing number.  As Mick Jagger cogently argues, "time is on my side":  

 

[mfbukowski]

30 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Wishful thinking.  The stats are very clear:  In the long term, it is precisely the most religious people who reproduce and who live healthy lives.  Secular millennials are not marrying in adequate numbers, and those who do are not having enough children to replace themselves.  Consequently, it is the secularists who slowly dissipate.  The demographics are very clear, whether we look at Orthodox Jews, Mormons, or other religious groups with high rates of fertility.

So, skepticism does take over, but only in an ever diminishing number.  As Mick Jagger cogently argues, "time is on my side":  

 

As I have said, evolution in action.

The Didache and the Way of Death vs the Plan of Happiness ....

[changed]

On 5/26/2018 at 4:53 PM, 6EQUJ5 said:

Is your belief a choice? Or are you compelled to believe what you believe because the facts/evidence/experience point conclusively to your belief?

I think I'm somewhere in the middle but lean towards my belief being compelled.  The spiritual experiences I have had and the research I have done all point to the same thing. So my belief is inevitable result of the facts.

But I will say that in interpreting facts, I make little choices all the time.  

Curious what others think.

 

I joined the LDs church from experiences - that said it is not an all-or-nothing sort of a deal.  I have a testimony about some things (that death is not the end, etc.) but do not have a testimony on other things (the priesthood etc.)

[Jeanne]

As a young teenage girl..I chose to believe..and to believe in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.  I chose that initially because I wanted to...and also because if I didn't....I could live there anymore.

[Exiled]

13 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Wishful thinking.  The stats are very clear:  In the long term, it is precisely the most religious people who reproduce and who live healthy lives.  Secular millennials are not marrying in adequate numbers, and those who do are not having enough children to replace themselves.  Consequently, it is the secularists who slowly dissipate.  The demographics are very clear, whether we look at Orthodox Jews, Mormons, or other religious groups with high rates of fertility.

So, skepticism does take over, but only in an ever diminishing number.  As Mick Jagger cogently argues, "time is on my side":  

 

I thought the church and religion in general are losing numbers in droves.  The younger generations leaving may mean that time is on someone else's side.

[Kenngo1969]

On 5/26/2018 at 7:35 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

What percentage of Mormons do you imagine actually even know about Alma 32, much less practice those experimental principles?

 

23 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

I only wager/bet for or against sure things. I respectfully decline to engage you on this. 

 

20 hours ago, CV75 said:

I choose to believe it is enough of a % to change the world...! 

As Paul told the Galatians, "A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump" (Galatians 5:9).

[Robert F. Smith]

10 hours ago, Exiled said:

I thought the church and religion in general are losing numbers in droves.  The younger generations leaving may mean that time is on someone else's side.

You thought wrong.  There is a general trend toward secularism in the West, in Europe especially, but the European Christians who fail to reproduce are being replaced by Muslims (millions of whom now live in Europe, and who are far more committed to religion than Christians).  So too in the USA, Mormon and Orthodox Jewish retention rates are very high, while the retention rates of mainstream Christians and mainstream Jews is quite low.  As in Europe, the mainstream churches and synagogues are empty.  However, Americans generally have such low fertility that they are not replacing themselves in the population at large.  This means that, over time, they will be replaced by those with high fertility -- namely Mormons, Orthodox Jews, etc.  Take a close look at the demographics.

The key point is that young millennials who do not breed are not going to replace themselves.

Edited May 29, 2018 by Robert F. Smith

[Stargazer]

On 5/26/2018 at 10:53 PM, 6EQUJ5 said:

Is your belief a choice? Or are you compelled to believe what you believe because the facts/evidence/experience point conclusively to your belief?

I think I'm somewhere in the middle but lean towards my belief being compelled.  The spiritual experiences I have had and the research I have done all point to the same thing. So my belief is inevitable result of the facts.

But I will say that in interpreting facts, I make little choices all the time.  

Curious what others think.

This pretty much describes me, although I would put myself higher up the "compelled" spectrum.  I started out in this church believing in personal revelation, because Joseph Smith struck me as a "regular guy", and if he could get revelation from God, then I could.  When I acted on that faith in asking for more information, I got it.  I discovered for myself what Alma 32 and Alma 12:9 mean.  I'd be hard put to deny the Spirit at this point.  Very hard put.

One of my favorite scriptures, and a guiding light:

9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.

10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.

11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Stargazer

[Exiled]

13 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You thought wrong.  There is a general trend toward secularism in the West, in Europe especially, but the European Christians who fail to reproduce are being replaced by Muslims (millions of whom now live in Europe, and who are far more committed to religion that Christians).  So too in the USA, Mormon and Orthodox Jewish retention rates are very high, while the retention rates of mainstream Christians and mainstream Jews is quite low.  As in Europe, the mainstream churches ans synagogues are empty.  However, Americans generally have such low fertility that they are not replacing themselves in the population at large.  This means that, over time, they will be replaced by those with high fertility -- namely Mormons, Orthodox Jews, etc.  Take a close look at the demographics.

The key point is that young millennials who do not breed are not going to replace themselves.

Could you supply links to the data? I would like to see where you support the statement that retention rates among mormons and orthodox jews are high.

[Stargazer]

On 5/26/2018 at 11:49 PM, Bernard Gui said:

Well, when I received the few profound encounters I have had with the Spirit (some sought for and some not), I have felt such deep love and gratitude that the only appropriate course seemed to be to follow the Savior. Even with the trials of faith and patience I have had, that serves as a solid anchor for me. I suppose I could choose to reject it if I were so inclined. After all, no one is forcing me to stick around.

That is the way of it.  I feel compelled, but only in the sense that having had profound experiences with the Spirit, I would be foolish to abandon that which has given me such deep satisfaction and joy.  In respect of "some sought for and some not" that describes my experiences as well.

In short, I could choose to disregard it all -- the Lord doesn't have me tied up with ropes, after all -- but like I said, it would be foolish to do so.

[Stargazer]

On 5/27/2018 at 1:41 AM, strappinglad said:

Occasionally I think about the interaction between Legion and Christ. Apparently Legion knew about Christ and His mission and didn't want anything to do with Him. Seems (they) made a choice.

Except that their choice was made in the pre-existence -- and perhaps they would have chosen differently, if they had known the consequences.

[Calm]

57 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Except that their choice was made in the pre-existence -- and perhaps they would have chosen differently, if they had known the consequences.

Who says they weren't aware of the consequences?

[Robert F. Smith]

9 hours ago, Exiled said:

Could you supply links to the data? I would like to see where you support the statement that retention rates among mormons and orthodox jews are high.

On retention rates, you may want to look at William McKenzie, "The God Gene: The family that prays together .  .  . well, you know the rest," The Weekly Standard, 19/44 (August 4, 2014), online at http://www.weeklystandard.com/author/william-mckenzie ,

Quote

[Vern] Bengtson and his fellow researchers found that the familial part of social networks remains critical in transmitting religious beliefs-—-or a lack of such. “Religious momentum across generations” remains a reality, Bengtson contends. Bengtson’s study especially found “momentum” with Mormon, Jewish, and evangelical Protestant families. Each had a fairly steady transmission rate, as the sociologists call it, between 1970 and 2005. Here are a few key data points:

    In 1970, 67 percent of Mormon parents had young adult children who shared their religion. By 2005, 85 percent did.

    In 1970, 70 percent of evangelical parents had young adult children within the same tradition. By 2005, 62 percent did.

    In 1970, 94 percent of Jewish parents had young adult children who shared their religion. By 2005, 82 percent did. 

Obviously, Mormons did the best. But the slippage in evangelical and Jewish transmission rates was not very great, especially when compared with the drop-offs for mainline Protestants and Roman Catholics. The so-called parent-child similarity rates for mainliners dropped by 33 percentage points between 1970 and 2005, while they declined 41 percentage points for Catholics.

Emma Green, “Keeping the Faith: How childhood influences churchgoing,” Atlantic, Nov 2014, online at http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/11/keeping-the-faith/380799/ ,

Quote

. . . kids of certain faiths, such as young Mormons, evangelicals, and Jews, are more likely to stay in the fold than are those of other denominations   citing Bengtson et al., Families and Faith: How Religion Is Passed Down Across Generations (Oxford, Nov. 2013).

Ed Stourton, “The decline of religion in the West,” BBC News, June 26, 2015, online at http://www.bbc.com/news/world-33256561 ,

Quote

British Social Attitudes surveys, which suggest that the number of Anglicans here "fell from 40% of the population in 1983 to 29% in 2004 to 17% last year".
The decline among Roman Catholics is less marked - from 10% of the population to 8% over the same period  * * * * the percentage of Americans who described themselves as Christian had dropped from 78.4% to 70.6% between 2007 and 2014. * * * * 

If you live within a secular society, it is easy to assume that religions will simply wither away, but Lord Sacks offers the opposite view.
"The world will be more religious a generation from now, not less," he says. "The more religious people are, the more children they have. The more secular they are, the fewer children they have... the religious will inherit the Earth."

Maggie Gallagher, “The Catholic Weakness: A Large Proportion of Traditional, Mass-going Catholics Don’t Believe Basic Church Doctrine.  Why Not,” National Review, December 19, 2014, online at http://www.nationalreview.com/article/395064/catholic-weakness-maggie-gallagher , and Maggie Gallagher, “The Mormon Advantage: Leaving Theology Aside, What Can We Learn from the Mormons,” National Review, December 12, 2014, online at http://www.nationalreview.com/article/394510/mormon-advantage-maggie-gallagher , Mormons are doing the best job in America at maintaining a healthy child-rich marriage culture.  Orthodox Jews likewise.

 

Edited May 29, 2018 by Robert F. Smith

[strappinglad]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Except that their choice was made in the pre-existence -- and perhaps they would have chosen differently, if they had known the consequences. 

Have you met some of our noble species? Some text and drive, some continue to smoke, some like to ride motorbikes without helmets, some drink to excess, some cheat on their spouses. All this with quite a bit of evidence of the consequences. Pride, it won't happen to me, and nobody is going to tell me what to do, seem to be the attitudes involved.

[Stargazer]

15 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

Have you met some of our noble species? Some text and drive, some continue to smoke, some like to ride motorbikes without helmets, some drink to excess, some cheat on their spouses. All this with quite a bit of evidence of the consequences. Pride, it won't happen to me, and nobody is going to tell me what to do, seem to be the attitudes involved.

I have met a few!  And yes, they do things all the time without thought upon the consequences.  But after the theoretical consequences have become real, i.e. the state vector has collapsed and become the new reality, a non-surprising number of our noble conspecifics regret having done what they did to cause what happened!  It's too late by that point, however, and that is what I was talking about with respect to those who blew their First Estate wide open and ended up being exiled here with no further purpose except to try to tempt us to screw up our Second Estate.  It might well be that Legion, in trying to get a body, however crude and primitive as it might be, realized and regretted what they had done.  Will they ever get another chance, or are they doomed?  I surely don't know.  I suspect not.  It's very sad.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Stargazer

[Festus]

Humans, like other animals, are wired for survival.    Otherwise we wouldn't be here.

Over the ages, survival depended on the support of the group around us.    We are tribalists, some more than others.

Some are more insecure, and more dependent on support from the group.     Those people are more likely to do whatever it takes to conform to group beliefs.

Obviously an 8 year old will choose baptism, as they are completely dependent on their parents, and therefore want to please them.

They are also threatened with separation from family if they don't comform (primary song:   families can be together forever, through HF's plan.....)

Some groups, like Mormonism, impose greater fear should members not comply.     Guilt trips, family separation, divorce, shaming, etc.   Which is why retention rates are better.

My cousin was divorced by his wife after he quit attending.    She took his 5 kids.

In effect, we have guns to our heads to help us "choose" to believe.

In the past, it was easier to keep blinders on and see only what we wanted to see.     Now with the internet, things are different.