President Nelson wants only paper copies of FtSoY for June 3 devotional

[rongo]

5 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

I forgot all that stuff.

I use the hymnbook on my ipad as I can adjust the text to the size I want.  Otherwise I'd also have to carry reading glasses, and I'm not admitting yet that I'm that old.

I need hearing aids, but I'm not getting them at 42. Plus, I can't afford them, anyway (we don't have health insurance, and I think they're pretty expensive, even if you have it).

I just got glasses this year as well. I don't need them to read; I need them so I can read street signs and see faces in the audience from the stand.  

[hope_for_things]

On 5/17/2018 at 11:35 AM, Scott Lloyd said:

I would be hard-pressed to think of any element in For the Strength of Youth that would not apply with equal validity to adults.

I'm open to suggestions.

Actually, I don't think you are open to suggestions from anyone on this message board.  Couple a strong deference to authority with the perspective that you "have yet to encounter an instance where my views conflict with their collective teachings."  I doubt anything can penetrate that reasoning. 

Don't get personal.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 minute ago, rongo said:

They're already in the chapel, the gym, or the classroom (if needed).

 

 

We meet in one of the chapel overflow sfor priesthood meeting when we have the 9 to noon schedule, and there are no hymbooks where we meet. I could fake it, I suppose, but I lead the singing in priesthood meeting, and I need the sheet music to refer to.
 

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Ward directory, stapled and two-sided, is not heavy or bulky at all.  Plus, you can write notes on it. I print out a new one each week and carry it with me.

 

It becomes an issue when combined with the other things you have to carry. And you can make notes in an electronic device as well, notes that are not lost when you discard your paper copy from week to week.

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I've never found that I've needed those right that second. Jot down a note, and check when able. 

You have to remember to do that. Having a pocket electronic device relieves one of that burden.

 

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Interesting, in light of this discussion. I met with my RS president last night (and primary, and YW, seperately). She's an *awesome* Samoan whose mother went to Cornell straight from the islands (very highly-motivated and driven. She has managed nutrition and health programs for the federal government for the South Pacific). She apologized for her handwritten papers (we were going over proposed ministering sisters and sisters, and she had many papers with intricate lists, diagrams, and notes), and I smiled and gestured to the papers on my desk. "I'm a paper guy, myself!" She was self-conscious about her voluminous notes, but I loved the thought and muscle memory that goes into that. I think there is a different wiring and memory dynamic between the paper readers/note-takers, and the type-it-into-devices types we are splitting into. 

To each his own. 

 

Someone that highly organized might do even better if she learned to use an iPad or an iPhone in a way that would benefit her.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 minute ago, hope_for_things said:

Actually, I don't think you are open to suggestions from anyone on this message board.  Couple a strong deference to authority with the perspective that you "have yet to encounter an instance where my views conflict with their collective teachings."  I doubt anything can penetrate that reasoning. 

Try me.

Is there anything in For the Strength of Youth that would have no theoretical applicability to adults?

Take it as a challenge. It could be fun.

[rongo]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

We meet in one of the chapel overflow sfor priesthood meeting when we have the 9 to noon schedule, and there are no hymbooks where we meet. I could fake it, I suppose, but I lead the singing in priesthood meeting, and I need the sheet music to refer to.

You need a hymnbook to sing one of the three songs? Just kidding ---- we have hymnbook shelves in the gym for the overflow areas, and part of meeting set up is to put three per row on the rows of folding chairs. 

I'm going to make your head explode, as a music person, but most of us don't even need a conductor. We just sing along, a capella. 

It becomes an issue when combined with the other things you have to carry. And you can make notes in an electronic device as well, notes that are not lost when you discard your paper copy from week to week.

I think for people who regularly look at their e-notes, this system works really well. I keep many of my list printouts, and you would be surprised how often that comes in handy (you need an address or birthdate or something from someone whose record is now gone). 

You have to remember to do that. Having a pocket electronic device relieves one of that burden.

Yes. I wonder if we are culturally atrophying in memory because we rely on devices to remember for us?

Someone that highly organized might do even better if she learned to use an iPad or an iPhone in a way that would benefit her.

See, that's the thing. She's like me, and much prefers using the old-school method of taking and reading notes. I don't think she or I would do better if we used a device. 

[ksfisher]

17 minutes ago, rongo said:

I've never found that I've needed those right that second. Jot down a note, and check when able.

They come in handy when the bishop is making an announcement about an activity and forgot to write down what time it's at. 😉

[ksfisher]

23 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Are you privy to everything I see and hear, etc.

No, which I why I asked rather than assuming I know what you see, do, and know (which is what you're claiming with the brethren, that you know what they know and don't know).

[california boy]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

To paraphrase Blackadder:

”I am not convinced you would know inspiration if it painted itself purple and danced naked on top of a harpsichord singing: ‘Inspiration is here again.’”

Well that makes total sense.  I would not being expecting inspiration to be naked or purple.  Dancing I can kinda understand.

[rongo]

15 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

They come in handy when the bishop is making an announcement about an activity and forgot to write down what time it's at. 😉

To repurpose a Brigham Young quote:

"If I were to [get a calendar item wrong] it would not be an hour after the people got out, before it would begin to fly from one to another, and they would remark, “I do not quite like that! It does not look exactly right! What did [the bishop] mean? That did not sound quite right, it was not exactly the thing!” All these observations would be made by the people, yes, even by the sisters . . . It would not sit well on the mind . . . and I will defy any man to [get a calendar item wrong] without being detected; and we need not go to the Elders of Israel, the children who have been born in these mountains possess enough [electronic devices] to detect it."   

(Originally a statement about prophetic infallibility).

[6EQUJ5]

1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

If I was to bring everything I would need to church on a given Sunday it could include:

The four standard works

Handbook 1

Handbook 2

The gospel doctrine study guide

The gospel principles book

The youth sunday school lesson book

The aaronic priesthood lesson book

The young women's lesson book

A copy of the conference issue of the Ensign

The primary sharing time guide

The primary songbook (because I don't sing the songs often enough anymore to have all of them memorized)

 

Did you carry paper copies of all these before the invention of smartphones and tablets?

I think it is a little silly to suggest that you *need* all of these resources to attend a 3 hour block.

[6EQUJ5]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

A copy of the hymnbook

In our chapel we use printed hymnbooks and there are usually more than enough copies for everyone.

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The ward and stake directory

Why do you need this during sacrament meeting? Do you work on other tasks rather than listen to the talks?

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The ward and stake calendar

Why do you need this during sacrament meeting? Do you work on other tasks rather than listen to the talks?

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

My personal calendar and address book

Why do you need this during sacrament meeting? Do you work on other tasks rather than listen to the talks?

[Scott Lloyd]

3 minutes ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

Did you carry paper copies of all these before the invention of smartphones and tablets?

I think it is a little silly to suggest that you *need* all of these resources to attend a 3 hour block.

He probably doesn’t need every single one every single week. But having them all together in a pocket or tablet-size device obviates the need for guesswork about what he might need on any given week. 

[6EQUJ5]

2 hours ago, ksfisher said:

The four standard works

Handbook 1

Handbook 2

The gospel doctrine study guide

The gospel principles book

The youth sunday school lesson book

The aaronic priesthood lesson book

The young women's lesson book

A copy of the conference issue of the Ensign

The primary sharing time guide

The primary songbook (because I don't sing the songs often enough anymore to have all of them memorized)

I think this list shows exactly why our Bishop was inspired to ban devices in sacrament meeting. People working on Church work during the meeting take away from the spirit of the meeting.  Not to mention how rude it is to speakers.

The only thing you need for sacrament meeting is yourself. And probably a quad to follow along with speakers.

[6EQUJ5]

2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

He probably doesn’t need every single one every single week. But having them all together in a pocket or tablet-size device obviates the need for guesswork about what he might need on any given week. 

How did anyone manager before these devices were invented?  As I remember it, Church services went along just fine. Sunday school and Priesthood had meetings. Relief Society seemed to be OK.

The argument that you somehow need these things to attend Church is silly.

 

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

The problem is the echo chamber that they operate in.  We saw some of this with the leaked videos from a few years back.  They receive a lot of confirming feedback, but rarely get anything challenging presented to their world view.  

I dispute this characterization of their lives as feeble guesswork designed to serve an agenda.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

Well that makes total sense.  I would not being expecting inspiration to be naked or purple.  Dancing I can kinda understand.

You are getting the wrong kind of inspiration then. You are missing out.  

[hope_for_things]

21 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

2 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

The problem is the echo chamber that they operate in.  We saw some of this with the leaked videos from a few years back.  They receive a lot of confirming feedback, but rarely get anything challenging presented to their world view.  

I dispute this characterization of their lives as feeble guesswork designed to serve an agenda.

Not sure exactly what you mean by feeble guesswork designed to serve an agenda, as that's not what I said.  But I imagine we're all serving an agenda to a certain extent.  My comment was about the lack of diversity of thought and real engagement with alternative perspectives that challenge their orthodoxy.  

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

No, which I why I asked rather than assuming I know what you see, do, and know (which is what you're claiming with the brethren, that you know what they know and don't know).

I'm not making an absolute claim that I "know what they know."  You earlier made an assumption that I was speaking literally about something that  I thought was obvious I was expressing my opinion about and not speaking in a literal sense.  This is similar in that I'm making an interpretation based on my observations of the information.  A more simple description would be to say that I'm expressing my opinion again.  

I thought this was the point of message boards.  

[ksfisher]

5 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I'm not making an absolute claim that I "know what they know."  You earlier made an assumption that I was speaking literally about something that  I thought was obvious I was expressing my opinion about and not speaking in a literal sense.  This is similar in that I'm making an interpretation based on my observations of the information.  A more simple description would be to say that I'm expressing my opinion again.  

I thought this was the point of message boards.  

Perhaps then you should begin sentences with "in my opinion..." 

When you write thing such as

"The problem is the echo chamber that they operate in."   

and

"They receive a lot of confirming feedback, but rarely get anything challenging presented to their world view."

it sounds like you are stating facts which should be in evidence to all, and not your opinion.

 

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Actually, I don't think you are open to suggestions from anyone on this message board.  Couple a strong deference to authority with the perspective that you "have yet to encounter an instance where my views conflict with their collective teachings."  I doubt anything can penetrate that reasoning. 

Dltd

Dangit I need to shutup...

 

Edited May 17, 2018 by Stargazer

[hope_for_things]

20 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Perhaps then you should begin sentences with "in my opinion..." 

When you write thing such as

"The problem is the echo chamber that they operate in."   

and

"They receive a lot of confirming feedback, but rarely get anything challenging presented to their world view."

it sounds like you are stating facts which should be in evidence to all, and not your opinion.

 

Perhaps you should assume that when people talk they are expressing their opinion, unless it is otherwise stated.  I haven't run into others having a problem with my statements in this way.  

[hope_for_things]

20 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Dltd

Dangit I need to shutup...

 

I missed what you said.  Unless it was in violation of the board rules, please feel free to say what you are thinking.  I'm a big kid, I can take it.  

[Stargazer]

20 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I missed what you said.  Unless it was in violation of the board rules, please feel free to say what you are thinking.  I'm a big kid, I can take it.  

It wasnt my conversation, hft. S'all good...

[Calm]

6 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Perhaps you should assume that when people talk they are expressing their opinion, unless it is otherwise stated.  I haven't run into others having a problem with my statements in this way.  

I am reading your comments the same way.  Since others pointed out the problem, I didn't feel the need to say anything.  You shouldn't assume just because one or two say something, only they see things that way, imo.

Given people are often debating here and making comments in support of their arguments, I see just as much reason to assume they are making statements of fact when they are written as statements.  I don't find opinions very persuasive so if that is all someone is using to present their case, I will not be even close to convinced.  Otoh, facts can persuade me.  You don't even have to write out more than three letters these days with "imo".

Edited May 18, 2018 by Calm

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

In our chapel we use printed hymnbooks and there are usually more than enough copies for everyone.

I've already addressed this. With two wards in our building and alternating block schedules, we can't always hold priesthood meeting in the chapel, and there are no books in the overflow area where we do meet. Furthermore, there are often times, such as when the meeting is crowded, that I don't have access to a hymnbook. Having the words and sheet music score on my device might be a non-essential convenience, but it's one that I enjoy and that I don't feel I should have to give up.
 

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Why do you need this during sacrament meeting? Do you work on other tasks rather than listen to the talks?

Why do you need this during sacrament meeting? Do you work on other tasks rather than listen to the talks?

Why do you need this during sacrament meeting? Do you work on other tasks rather than listen to the talks?

 

There are announcements given from the pulpit during the meeting, and I sometimes like to note them down in my calendar.

I often hear the ward referred to as "the ward family." This being the case, I like to familiarize myself with the ward members, and when someone is speaking whom I don't recognize, it helps to be able to make a connection by looking him/her up in the ward directory. Again, a non-essential convenience, maybe, but one I don't feel I should have to give up just because some meeting attendees don't like seeing other attendees using electronic devices.

Furthermore, what I understand from past conversations here is that your bishop has forbidden even the presence, not just the use, of the devices in the chapel, and that this is what you advocate. To comply, one would thus have to leave the device home and not have it available for other meetings during the block.

Edited May 17, 2018 by Scott Lloyd