hope_for_things Posted May 17, 2018 Posted May 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, ksfisher said: Yes, I can see the difference. I've read plenty of rule books in my time and I've also read For the Strength of Youth. They are clearly different. You seem to want to teach the principle of teaching correct principles, without actually teaching any principles. Correlated Mormonism across the board deserves an F grade for teaching correct principles.
6EQUJ5 Posted May 17, 2018 Posted May 17, 2018 9 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: How in the world could they possibly expect to enforce a policy like this. That is crazy. If I were there, I think I would use my device even more than normal just to spite such a silly rule. People who use electronic devices are asked to attend the meeting in the RS room where audio is piped in. We have a fair number of folks choose that option each week.
Scott Lloyd Posted May 17, 2018 Posted May 17, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Stargazer said: I suspect Pres. Nelson wants the booklet to be available to those youth who are not yet so dependent upon their devices that they have to carry them glued to their eyeballs every waking moment. And perhaps to those who don't actually have such a device. Does the Church still print up wallet- or purse-size cards that have a summary of the points in For the Strength of Youth? If so, that's an indication the Church authorities want the youth to have the booklet or a version thereof with them constantly for ready reference. Having it accessible on one's electronic device is one way to accomplish this. Edited May 17, 2018 by Scott Lloyd
6EQUJ5 Posted May 17, 2018 Posted May 17, 2018 29 minutes ago, stemelbow said: You just left us all hanging. How was sacrament meeting improved? Less kids whimpering? More parents ignoring the kids and listening to the talks? Better talks? Quieter moment when the sacrament is passed? Because people are actually focussed on the meeting, rather than on their electronic toys, the meetings are more reverent and spiritual. And plus, there are no more random rings and dings throughout the meeting.
Scott Lloyd Posted May 17, 2018 Posted May 17, 2018 (edited) 16 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: Correlated Mormonism across the board deserves an F grade for teaching correct principles. So you're pitting your own version of "correct principles" against that of the prophets and apostles. For me, the choice between your version and theirs is clear. Edited May 17, 2018 by Scott Lloyd 1
stemelbow Posted May 17, 2018 Posted May 17, 2018 1 minute ago, 6EQUJ5 said: Because people are actually focussed on the meeting, rather than on their electronic toys, the meetings are more reverent and spiritual. And plus, there are no more random rings and dings throughout the meeting. One thing I've noticed in my lifetime Church affiliations--what people call reverent and spiritual is subjective. I suppose you could be correct...the meetings improved. or it could be that you changed somehow, even so subtly without you noticing. It is quite possible that another in your ward feels the opposite--since incorporating the rule the meetings have becme less spiritual, reverent and meaningful. But, your experience I noted.
stemelbow Posted May 17, 2018 Posted May 17, 2018 11 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: Correlated Mormonism across the board deserves an F grade for teaching correct principles. 👍💪 I had to add the arm. Didn't expect to see it when I wanted to offer you a simple rep point.
Scott Lloyd Posted May 17, 2018 Posted May 17, 2018 (edited) 13 minutes ago, 6EQUJ5 said: Because people are actually focussed on the meeting, rather than on their electronic toys, the meetings are more reverent and spiritual. And plus, there are no more random rings and dings throughout the meeting. The last time I heard a ring or a ding in sacrament meeting was ... oh, never. And unless someone is creating a visible or audible disturbance, I don't see how that person's private use of an electronic device affects others' feelings of reverence and spirituality -- even assuming, arguendo, that the person is using the device for a non-Church-related purpose. If you mean by this that people in the surrounding pews are less apt to feel unkind or judgmental if there is no one near them viewing a smartphone screen, well, perhaps they need to work on improving their own character rather than being so concerned about the benign actions of those around them. I used to get a tad annoyed when I saw people not participating in the congregational singing during sacrament meeting. I have long since learned to lighten up, after I realized that unless they are doing something to distract me, their behavior should not affect my own worship or reverence. Edited May 17, 2018 by Scott Lloyd 1
stemelbow Posted May 17, 2018 Posted May 17, 2018 Just now, Scott Lloyd said: The last time I heard a ring or a ding in sacrament meeting was ... oh, never. And unless someone is creating a visible or audible disturbance, I don't see how that person's private use of an electronic device affects others' feelings of reverence and spirituality -- even assuming, arguendo, that the person is using the device for a non-Church-related purpose. If you mean by this that people in the surrounding pews are less apt to feel unkind or judgmental if there is no one near them using a smartphone, well, perhaps they need to work on improving their own character rather than being so concerned about the benign actions of those around them. 👏
hope_for_things Posted May 17, 2018 Posted May 17, 2018 36 minutes ago, ksfisher said: What a load of malarkey. CFR that "It actually is worshiped by adults" This really isn't a CFR by definition. CFR is for the purpose of having someone substantiate a specific factual claim that was made. In this case you're asking me to support an opinion I have made through subjective observations on my part. I could do this by just explaining what I've observed and how those observations make me think that the FSoY is worshiped by adults which is my opinion. But in case you don't think that would satisfy your CFR, I will instead provide this link to a blog post from a few years back to show that I'm not the only one noticing this phenomenon. Quote There is a new trend in the church to elevate the For the Strength of Youth standards to something that should be applied to all members, not just the youth. I’ve experienced first hand and heard online from others that local wards have reviewed the For the Strength of Youth pamphlet and standards with the adults, explaining that it applies to them as well. In our Singapore stake, this was presented in a talk called “For the Strength of YOU.” https://bycommonconsent.com/2013/07/12/for-the-strength-of-youth/
hope_for_things Posted May 17, 2018 Posted May 17, 2018 41 minutes ago, rongo said: That's the difference. Most attending LDS will comply with requests, counsel, guidance, etc. from their leaders. I'm not sure Scott would turn his off, though . . . <ducking> Me? I've always been, and always will be a paper book guy. I can't even turn off a confiscated smart phone in class. I'm a good little follower by nature. But in this case, telling people to put devices away is just a step too far into insanity and rubs me wrong. Silence your devices is acceptable, but telling people to turn them off is stepping over that line.
hope_for_things Posted May 17, 2018 Posted May 17, 2018 40 minutes ago, rongo said: The wording under the Law of Chastity is very useful and helpful in teaching and interviewing. Can't be said better! There are other things, like the wording in much of the Proclamation, that come in handy. People were shocked when our kids were really little, but we memorized the Proclamation as a family. Even our four-year old was able to! And they have access to the wording for a number of teaching and explanation situations. I think the Chastity section is one of the worst sections.
hope_for_things Posted May 17, 2018 Posted May 17, 2018 36 minutes ago, 6EQUJ5 said: People who use electronic devices are asked to attend the meeting in the RS room where audio is piped in. We have a fair number of folks choose that option each week. Wow, I'm having a hard time believing this is real. Can you please promise you aren't trolling me here. This is blowing my mind, even in a conservative religion that teaches deference to authority as its #1 value, I still have a hard time believing anyone would take things to this extreme. Please tell me you're joking.
hope_for_things Posted May 17, 2018 Posted May 17, 2018 33 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: So you're pitting your own version of "correct principles" against that of the prophets and apostles. For me, the choice between your version and theirs is clear. Your assumption is that the prophets agree with your interpretation of the correct way to teach correct principles.
ksfisher Posted May 17, 2018 Posted May 17, 2018 Just now, hope_for_things said: This really isn't a CFR by definition. CFR is for the purpose of having someone substantiate a specific factual claim that was made. In this case you're asking me to support an opinion I have made through subjective observations on my part. I could do this by just explaining what I've observed and how those observations make me think that the FSoY is worshiped by adults which is my opinion. You did not state this as an opinion or an observation. You stated that For the Strength of Youth is "...actually worshiped by adults" Definition of actually 1 : in act or in fact : really trying to find out what actually happened won't actually arrive for an hour 2 : in point of fact —used to suggest something unexpected was surprised to learn that she could actually speak German https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/actually If this is your opinion it would be helpful for you to state it as such. If this is your opinion based on observations you've made it would be helpful for you to state this and maybe back it up with your observations. Regardless, by using the word actually you are stating that something is a fact. Please post something to back up this fact that others can verify or state that you are presenting your opinion and not actually a fact.
hope_for_things Posted May 17, 2018 Posted May 17, 2018 34 minutes ago, stemelbow said: 👍💪 I had to add the arm. Didn't expect to see it when I wanted to offer you a simple rep point. Thanks Stem, wish I could give you some rep points! Hopefully you'll be off probation sometime soon.
hope_for_things Posted May 17, 2018 Posted May 17, 2018 32 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: The last time I heard a ring or a ding in sacrament meeting was ... oh, never. And unless someone is creating a visible or audible disturbance, I don't see how that person's private use of an electronic device affects others' feelings of reverence and spirituality -- even assuming, arguendo, that the person is using the device for a non-Church-related purpose. If you mean by this that people in the surrounding pews are less apt to feel unkind or judgmental if there is no one near them viewing a smartphone screen, well, perhaps they need to work on improving their own character rather than being so concerned about the benign actions of those around them. I used to get a tad annoyed when I saw people not participating in the congregational singing during sacrament meeting. I have long since learned to lighten up, after I realized that unless they are doing something to distract me, their behavior should not affect my own worship or reverence. I just had to point out that I just gave you a rep point for this great response. In the same thread with which I'm arguing with you about other things. Ha! What a day.
Scott Lloyd Posted May 17, 2018 Posted May 17, 2018 3 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: Your assumption is that the prophets agree with your interpretation of the correct way to teach correct principles. I keep a pretty close eye on the teachings of the prophets, and I have yet to encounter an instance where my views conflict with their collective teachings.
hope_for_things Posted May 17, 2018 Posted May 17, 2018 3 minutes ago, ksfisher said: You did not state this as an opinion or an observation. You stated that For the Strength of Youth is "...actually worshiped by adults" Definition of actually 1 : in act or in fact : really trying to find out what actually happened won't actually arrive for an hour 2 : in point of fact —used to suggest something unexpected was surprised to learn that she could actually speak German https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/actually If this is your opinion it would be helpful for you to state it as such. If this is your opinion based on observations you've made it would be helpful for you to state this and maybe back it up with your observations. Regardless, by using the word actually you are stating that something is a fact. Please post something to back up this fact that others can verify or state that you are presenting your opinion and not actually a fact. Of course its my opinion. Did you think I was speaking for someone else, or did you think I was being literal? I'm now picturing a group of people kneeling down in front of a shrine dedicated to the FSoY pamphet and offering up their devotions to the shrine. In a church of literalists, I guess I can never safely assume anything...
Scott Lloyd Posted May 17, 2018 Posted May 17, 2018 4 minutes ago, ksfisher said: You did not state this as an opinion or an observation. You stated that For the Strength of Youth is "...actually worshiped by adults" Definition of actually 1 : in act or in fact : really trying to find out what actually happened won't actually arrive for an hour 2 : in point of fact —used to suggest something unexpected was surprised to learn that she could actually speak German https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/actually If this is your opinion it would be helpful for you to state it as such. If this is your opinion based on observations you've made it would be helpful for you to state this and maybe back it up with your observations. Regardless, by using the word actually you are stating that something is a fact. Please post something to back up this fact that others can verify or state that you are presenting your opinion and not actually a fact. I agree that one cannot call for references for a statement of subjective opinion. But I would have to hold with ksfisher in this instance. Saying that For the Strength of Youth booklet is worshiped by adults in the Church is a statement of demonstrable or falsifiable fact and hence would fall under the purview of a call for references.
Scott Lloyd Posted May 17, 2018 Posted May 17, 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: Of course its my opinion. Did you think I was speaking for someone else, or did you think I was being literal? I'm now picturing a group of people kneeling down in front of a shrine dedicated to the FSoY pamphet and offering up their devotions to the shrine. That is the message and image conveyed by your assertion. Presumably you were engaging in hyperbole, but you can't expect everyone to recognize that. Edited May 17, 2018 by Scott Lloyd
Scott Lloyd Posted May 17, 2018 Posted May 17, 2018 5 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: I just had to point out that I just gave you a rep point for this great response. In the same thread with which I'm arguing with you about other things. Ha! What a day. 6EQUJ5 and I have tangled over this matter before. I'm quite familiar with his arguments, and I daresay he is with mine. So my position on this is independent of whether or not you agree with me.
hope_for_things Posted May 17, 2018 Posted May 17, 2018 3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I keep a pretty close eye on the teachings of the prophets, and I have yet to encounter an instance where my views conflict with their collective teachings. Personally, I find that I'm wrong about so many things so often that I can't keep track of all the times. Something you might find interesting as I believe I've fallen prey to this effect on certain topics before. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect
hope_for_things Posted May 17, 2018 Posted May 17, 2018 3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: 6EQUJ5 and I have tangled over this matter before. I'm quite familiar with his arguments, and I daresay he is with mine. So my position on this is independent of whether or not you agree with me. I believe this is the closest thing to a compliment I've ever heard you give me. I'll take it!
Scott Lloyd Posted May 17, 2018 Posted May 17, 2018 20 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: Personally, I find that I'm wrong about so many things so often that I can't keep track of all the times. Something you might find interesting as I believe I've fallen prey to this effect on certain topics before. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect I didn't say my behavior always conforms to their teachings, but that's not the same as disagreeing with them.
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