The beginning of the priesthood/temple ban

[ttribe]

Just now, Bernard Gui said:

The two aren’t even in the same ballpark.

It was a joke.  Lighten up.

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I mentioned several instances in which non-Israelites held the authentic priesthood of God, as with Jethro, Moses' father in law, so it is obvious that there have been instances.  As for the apostate priesthoods which you mention, they admit by their very existence as apostate versions of the priesthood of God that the real thing must exist somewhere.  In addition, we know that the lineal priesthood of Aaron among the Jews must be authentic, since it is mentioned repeatedly in the D&C as authentic.  Moreover, this would certainly be fully operative at the end time when the Jews build their temple in Jerusalem and the tribe of Levi offers an offering in righteousness.  There is a lot more going on in the world than we are aware of in our little corner of the world.  It is probably a good idea not to be too ethnocentric.

Thank you, but that is not what I am asking. I guess I’m not able to present it clearly.

[Bernard Gui]

2 minutes ago, ttribe said:

It was a joke.  Lighten up.

And God said, “Let there be smilies.” And there were smilies. And God said, “Smilies are good.”

Edited May 19, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, CV75 said:

This is an important distinction: the priesthood not being widely available due to transportation, communication and culture, etc. versus not being selectively available through divine edict, with the cultural aspect addressed by policy and the divine edict commanded by revelation. The first set of circumstances (transportation, communication and culture, etc.) led to the Great Apostasy, but the Restoration is all about revelation, with improvements in the first set of circumstances often explained by LDS leaders as being facilitated by more light coming into the world:

“We are blessed to live, learn, and serve in this most remarkable dispensation. An important aspect of the fulness that is available to us in this special season is a miraculous progression of innovations and inventions that have enabled and accelerated the work of salvation: from trains to telegraphs to radios to automobiles to airplanes to telephones to transistors to televisions to computers to satellite transmissions to the Internet—and to an almost endless list of technologies and tools that bless our lives. All of these advancements are part of the Lord hastening His work in the latter days.” https://www.lds.org/prophets-and-apostles/unto-all-the-world/to-sweep-the-earth-as-with-a-flood?lang=eng

Your use of “expediency” caught my attention since I’ve used it in a few of my posts. I think the Lord’s recognition and follow-through on His sense of expediency is an important piece in the restoration puzzle and hastening His work.

I think we have too little information to draw the conclusion that priesthood restrictions were simply a matter of circumstance and convenience, if that is what you are saying.

[JLHPROF]

43 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Yes. How does this apply to my question.....were there’s restrictions on who is given the priesthoods before the Restoration?

It doesn't.  It was a derail post.

There have always been restrictions on priesthood, favored groups of people, chosen races/lineages, birthright doctrine, etc.

God is no respecter of persons, but he's had his noble and great ones picked out since before the foundation of the earth.  We do not all come to earth equal.

[CMZ]

13 hours ago, CV75 said:

Agreed, "non-essetial" is the wrong term. The fact that it got retracted only proves that it was not "eternal". The timing aspect seems to be part of the roll-out of the dispensation, a time came when it was essential (I used"'expedient" in earlier posts) to stop the ban. So I'd say a better phrase is "formerly irrelevant but about to become disadvantageous."

Yeah, probably something like that.

[Robert F. Smith]

6 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Thank you, but that is not what I am asking. I guess I’m not able to present it clearly.

Well, I hesitate to speak to mere suggestions of priestly authority before the Restoration. However, we do have the testimony of Wilford Woodruff about 'the Prophet Mason," referring to a man, Robert Mason, who lived in his neighborhood, who had visions which came true, and was a powerful influence on young Wilford (who was the subject of one of his visions).  Was he an authentic prophet, and do prophets have to have the priesthood?  Since we know of female prophets, perhaps not.

There is also the instance of Numbers 11:
 27 And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp.
 28 And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them.
 29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!

"No prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."  (2 Peter 1:21) 

One must also recognize Gentile prophets, such as Balaam in Numbers 22. 

Maimonides believed that in each generation, prophecy comes to the holy and wise tzaddikim (righteous ones) who are worthy of receiving and understanding it.

 

 

 

[Bernard Gui]

8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Well, I hesitate to speak to mere suggestions of priestly authority before the Restoration. However, we do have the testimony of Wilford Woodruff about 'the Prophet Mason," referring to a man, Robert Mason, who lived in his neighborhood, who had visions which came true, and was a powerful influence on young Wilford (who was the subject of one of his visions).  Was he an authentic prophet, and do prophets have to have the priesthood?  Since we know of female prophets, perhaps not.

There is also the instance of Numbers 11:
 27 And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp.
 28 And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them.
 29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!

"No prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."  (2 Peter 1:21) 

One must also recognize Gentile prophets, such as Balaam in Numbers 22. 

Maimonides believed that in each generation, prophecy comes to the holy and wise tzaddikim (righteous ones) who are worthy of receiving and understanding it.

Must one be ordained to a Priesthood in order to prophesy? I’m thinking of Abinadi.

[Robert F. Smith]

29 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Must one be ordained to a Priesthood in order to prophesy? I’m thinking of Abinadi.

I don't think so, but I keep hearing the Brethren declare that women perform priesthood functions in the temple, and in ministering to others (old visiting teaching).  Does one have to be ordained to perform priesthood functions?  Apparently not.

[Guest]

On May 10, 2018 at 5:00 PM, JLHPROF said:

We do have the revelation on which the ban is based.  For better or for worse the ban originated from the Book of Abraham (and Moses) teachings.

And Joseph produced them.  He also made numerous statements that would be considered racist today that weren't later recollections.

The official ban as policy in the Church started under Brigham just like polygamy.  

But just like polygamy the doctrinal background leading to the ban and its beginning implementation came under Joseph.

 

It has a beginning long before the Book of Abraham. One may look to the floor debates of the 13th Admendment to see that such beliefs have their roots in early America and Europen history. Also, it was taught from the very pulpits of the Church's, I attended and in which I grew up in through the late 50's through the early 70's. It has a long, and horrible history, one that may need for my generation, that of their children and maybe their grandchildren to pass from this Earth, before we are ever be delivered (at least in the South) from this wilderness, and enter into the promised land where (indeed) "all men (and women) are created equal". I hope when that day comes, and if it comes before, the "coming of Christ", I am able to see it from the heavens! I praise the God that gave me life, that he gave me a heart that "would not" and "could not", embrace much of the teaching upon which I was raised. 

One of my longest friendships with the Church, began crashing down around me, when my Bishop made a sickening joke he heard on the day of President Obama's sweawing in. He is from Mississippi (so I cannot fault entirely), but since we found ourselves alone in the hallways, I preached a sermon to him on that very spot! I still love him, he is my brother, but today, just as with my biological brother we barely talk because of such matters. Even today with many in my Ward, they wonder what is wrong with me, living as I do in Georgia at my age for not seeing the world through "white colored glasses". Believe me, my faults and sins are legion, so I am not about to write them off, or t set myself above them. I love them, and they love me. We just don't understand each other on this issue.   

ETA: I also fear that much of what I say is misunderstood here as well. Probably due to my weakness in expressing myself as I hope. If it is indeed God's word and will concerning the early ban, then I pray he make it clear to me. My fear is that centuries of misunderstandings, and complete misrepresentations of so much from the OT, are either completely misunderstood, or completely misrepresented, as it was so in my childhood. It was so harsh, and so hate filled, that it was hard to bare. Thankfully my Father talked harshly, be when alone with someone of color, the times I witnessed, he was kind and charitable. My fear is that his fear is that he could show no weakness among family and friends. He was watching a demonstration of Black protestors in Atlanta one night, and angrily commented that they should all be beaten or killed. I turned to him and said, "oh no Daddy, I have seen your kindness, and you are a Minister, and a better man that this". I could tell he was troubled, and then told me, "I pray I am a better man, but your point is taken, but don't be disrespectful". My response was short, "I would not dream of it". My brothers were shocked and angry, shocked I got away with it, and angry that (myself being the youngest) that I even said what I did. All I know of the NT, is that after one of the earliest converts after the death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ, was Black. Also, our Prophet Joseph Smith, did ordain some Black men, one who served as a Seventy for the rest of his life. I also know that a Black member (I believe) in Winter's Quarters, declared himself a Prophet and entered into polygamist relationships with white women. Something that both European and Eastern American members could not abide. There were not many from the South in the Church at that time, at that time. However while doing genealogy we found that my wife's Aunt did join the Church, going West, becoming one of Brigham's polygamist wives. 

Edited May 20, 2018 by Bill "Papa" Lee

[Tacenda]

6 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

It has a beginning long before the Book of Abraham. One may look to the floor debates of the 13th Admendment to see that such beliefs have their roots in early America and Europen history. Also, it was taught from the very pulpits of the Church's, I attended and in which I grew up in through the late 50's through the early 70's. It has a long, and horrible history, one that may need for my generation, that of their children and maybe their grandchildren to pass from this Earth, before we are ever be delivered (at least in the South) from this wilderness, and enter into the promised land where (indeed) "all men (and women) are created equal". I hope when that day comes, and if it comes before, the "coming of Christ", I am able to see it from the heavens! I praise the God that gave me life, that he gave me a heart that "would not" and "could not", embrace much of the teaching upon which I was raised. 

One of my longest friendships with the Church, began crashing down around me, when my Bishop made a sickening joke he heard on the day of President Obama's sweawing in. He is from Mississippi (so I cannot fault entirely), but since we found ourselves alone in the hallways, I preached a sermon to him on that very spot! I still love him, he is my brother, but today, just as with my biological brother we barely talk because of such matters. Even today with many in my Ward, they wonder what is wrong with me, living as I do in Georgia at my age for not seeing the world through "white colored glasses". Believe me, my faults and sins are legion, so I am not about to write them off, or t set myself above them. I love them, and they love me. We just don't understand each other on this issue.   

Papa, you rock! 

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Papa, you rock! 

Thank You, but I doubt it. Although I live and was raised on "Rock". 

[CV75]

16 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I think we have too little information to draw the conclusion that priesthood restrictions were simply a matter of circumstance and convenience, if that is what you are saying.

I am saying we have too little information to say the priesthood restrictions were either divinely inspired or wicked. I don't think they were a trivial decision. My key point is that where there is no light or no agency, there is no accountability and so neither condemnation nor sanction apply (from God at least, and we are asked to follow His example). Some light-limiting circumstances, culture being one of them, served to foster the Great Apostasy and persisted into the Restoration.  Other more metaphysical circumstances such as the scope of a dispensation or a prophet's administration serve to circumscribe or impede his agency in relation to what future generations might have otherwise had him decide, enact and perform. Both types of circumstances began to be improved upon in preparation for the Restoration and then in subsequently advancing and accelerating the Restoration, and more often than not when the Lord found it expedient to do so.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Papa, you rock! 

Maybe I should have kept it shorter, as I fear looking critical to all, as I do not ever wish to be harsh or judgemental. As always, I pray that God give me wisdom to not overshoot the mark. I also pray I am not as misunderstood, as often as I am. I just wish that my Heavenly Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, and by the power of the Holy Ghost, let me know the truth, so that I can find a more judicial way to proceed without harming, or making others angry. As it is never my goal to do either, as I hope it is not in my nature to do so. 

[Guest]

23 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

It doesn't.  It was a derail post.

There have always been restrictions on priesthood, favored groups of people, chosen races/lineages, birthright doctrine, etc.

God is no respecter of persons, but he's had his noble and great ones picked out since before the foundation of the earth.  We do not all come to earth equal.

You should always tell the truth, and you listed a valid point. Yes the Lord has had restriction for always, certain of the twelve trips held the Priesthood, will others could not. Then restrictions not non Hebrews and different tribes of Israel, then only upon those with the  Iseralites that he called and ordained. 

[Tacenda]

54 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

Maybe I should have kept it shorter, as I fear looking critical to all, as I do not ever wish to be harsh or judgemental. As always, I pray that God give me wisdom to not overshoot the mark. I also pray I am not as misunderstood, as often as I am. I just wish that my Heavenly Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, and by the power of the Holy Ghost, let me know the truth, so that I can find a more judicial way to proceed without harming, or making others angry. As it is never my goal to do either, as I hope it is not in my nature to do so. 

Like with your minister father, it's okay to tell it from your heart, you've that right. Others tell it like it is so why not yourself. And when you are truthful with your feelings like with your father, you may have changed a heart or two for the better!! 

[2BizE]

What ever happened to the ban on black negro women going to the temple?  The priesthood ban was removed, but i dont recall reading anything about black women.

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

You should always tell the truth, and you listed a valid point. Yes the Lord has had restriction for always, certain of the twelve trips held the Priesthood, will others could not. Then restrictions not non Hebrews and different tribes of Israel, then only upon those with the  Iseralites that he called and ordained. 

More than that though.  Priesthood aside there have always been the chosen.  Israel entering into the promised land, regardless who was already living there.  Esau vs Jacob.  Birthright and patriarchal blessings.  Ephraim favored over his brother and uncles descendants.

The very existence of an exclusionary  Church of the Firstborn ordained Kings, Queens. And joint heirs.

And most of all, Christ.  Who was chosen in the councils of heaven as a premortal spirit to be given all the father has in exchange for the ultimate sacrifice.  (And yet some still don't think our choices, actions, and obedience in premortality impact our blessings here).

God has always had his favorites.

[RevTestament]

11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Must one be ordained to a Priesthood in order to prophesy? I’m thinking of Abinadi.

D&C 43:

2 For behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, that ye have received a commandment for a law unto my church, through him whom I have appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations from my hand.

3 And this ye shall know assuredly—that there is none other appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations until he be taken, if he abide in me.

4 But verily, verily, I say unto you, that none else shall be appointed unto this gift except it be through him; for if it be taken from him he shall not have power except to appoint another in his stead.

[Marginal Gains]

13 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I don't think so, but I keep hearing the Brethren declare that women perform priesthood functions in the temple, and in ministering to others (old visiting teaching).  Does one have to be ordained to perform priesthood functions?  Apparently not.

The women cannot perform any function that requires the Priesthood. For instance, passing/blessing the Sacrament, Blessing Babies, issuing callings, ordaining, baptising etc etc etc.

Let me show you why your comment is misleading by asking a question. Two women are on a ministering visit and the person they are visiting asks for a Priesthood blessing - what happens next?

[Marginal Gains]

On 5/19/2018 at 2:58 AM, Bernard Gui said:

I think we have too little information to draw the conclusion that priesthood restrictions were simply a matter of circumstance and convenience, if that is what you are saying.

The essay “Race And The Priesthood” certainly goes to great lengths to draw the readers eye towards the racial circumstances and culture within which the Church was restored and subsequently operated the ban on black people.

Edited May 20, 2018 by Marginal Gains

[Calm]

16 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said:

The women cannot perform any function that requires the Priesthood. For instance, passing/blessing the Sacrament, Blessing Babies, issuing callings, ordaining, baptising etc etc etc.

What do you think gives them authority to perform ordinances in the temple?

Edited May 20, 2018 by Calm

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Marginal Gains said:

The women cannot perform any function that requires the Priesthood. For instance, passing/blessing the Sacrament, Blessing Babies, issuing callings, ordaining, baptising etc etc etc.

You might try listening to the Brethren on that score.  Might help you make some marginal gains in your knowledge deficit:

Elder Dale G. and Sister Renlund: “4 Ways Women Exercise Priesthood Power and Authority,” Mar 8, 2018, excerpted from their recent book The Melchizedek Priesthood,  online at http://www.ldsliving.com/Elder-Renlund-4-Ways-Women-Exercise-Priesthood-Power-and-Authority/s/87931 .  They explain how that works in detail, and they quote Elder Dallin Oaks:

Quote

We are not accustomed to speaking of women having the authority of the priesthood in their Church callings, but what other authority can it be? When a woman . . . is set apart to preach the gospel as a full-time missionary, she is given priesthood authority to perform a priesthood function. The same is true when a woman is set apart to function as an officer or teacher in a Church organization under the direction of one who holds the keys of the priesthood. Whoever functions in an office or calling received from one who holds priesthood keys exercises priesthood authority in performing her or his assigned duties.

See also Wendy Ulrich, “5 Ways Women Are Already Given Priesthood Authority & Officiate in Priesthood Ordinances in the Church,” FairMormon Conference address, online at http://www.ldsliving.com/5-Ways-Women-Are-Already-Given-Priesthood-Authority-Officiate-in-Priesthood-Ordinances-in-the-Church/s/83386 .

1 hour ago, Marginal Gains said:

Let me show you why your comment is misleading by asking a question. Two women are on a ministering visit and the person they are visiting asks for a Priesthood blessing - what happens next?

You might want to ask President Emma Smith that question on the other side of the veil, because back in her day the sisters of the Relief Society were given authority by Joseph Smith to wash, anoint, and bless the sick.  Elizabeth Ann Whitney, “Early Relief Society Blessings: Great Blessings Await the Faithful of the Relief Society,” Women’s Exponent 7/91:26 = Research Report, 1/5 (Mar-Apr 1990):215.; Linda King Newell, “The Historical Relationship of Mormon Women and Priesthood,” Dialogue, 18/3 (Spring 1978):21-32, online at https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V18N03_23.pdf .  Do you have any idea which ordinances women perform in the temple?

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, Marginal Gains said:

The essay “Race And The Priesthood” certainly goes to great lengths to draw the readers eye towards the racial circumstances and culture within which the Church was restored and subsequently operated the ban on black people.

Surely, but that is not what I was asking about.

Edited May 20, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

10 hours ago, RevTestament said:

D&C 43:

2 For behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, that ye have received a commandment for a law unto my church, through him whom I have appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations from my hand.

3 And this ye shall know assuredly—that there is none other appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations until he be taken, if he abide in me.

4 But verily, verily, I say unto you, that none else shall be appointed unto this gift except it be through him; for if it be taken from him he shall not have power except to appoint another in his stead.

Abinadi. Samuel the Lamanite.