They just don't make miracles like they used to

[JAHS]

29 minutes ago, CV75 said:

1 hour ago, JAHS said:

I would agree, but it still doesn't really answer the question.  I am thinking it's possible that many of those Old and New Testament miracles were based on things that actually happened but by the time they were written down may have become exaggerated over time with regards to their supernatural magnitude. 

...which means they weren't much different in nature or magnitude for the eye-witness believers than the miracles we see today?

I think that might be possible. I am thinking of what the Pharaoh said in the Ten Commandments movie regarding the plagues:

"When the Nile ran red, I, too, was afraid, until word came of a mountain beyond the cataracts which spewed red mud and poisoned the water.
Was it the staff I gave you that caused all this? Was it the wonder of your god that fish should die and frogs should leave the waters?
Was it a miracle that flies and lice should bloat upon their carrion and spread disease in both man and beast?
These things were ordered by themselves, and not by any god."

But then again there was the Hail mixed with fire that is a little harder to explain.

[The Nehor]

The big miracles will come soon.

[JAHS]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

There are several problems with your delineation of the question:

(1) great time depth and the telescoping of history gives the impression of frequent "miracles," when they were actually quite unusual and scattered over long periods.

(2) Mormon history is replete with "miracles," but they are seldom acknowledged as such -- see John W. Welch and Eric B. Carlson, eds., Opening the Heavens: Accounts of Divine Manifestation, 1820–1844 (Provo: BYU Press/SLC: Deseret Book, 2005); 2nd ed. (2017).

(3) the concept of "miracle" is a logical contradiction in terms (a category mistake), and certainly not in keeping with LDS theology, which asserts such apparently supernatural events are actually natural and beyond human understanding (beyond current human technology).

1. Yes but they were still on a bigger scale than what we see today.

2. I agree but not on the same scale of what we see in the scriptures.

3.  Well I guess I have my own definition of what a miracle is, but I do agree that many of these, what I and most any other religious person call miracles,
may have been natural phenomena that the people back then simply didn't understand yet.  Although hail mixed with fire and a man spending 3 days inside a fish are hard to explain at the time they happened.

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, JAHS said:

1. Yes but they were still on a bigger scale than what we see today.

2. I agree but not on the same scale of what we see in the scriptures.

Supposedly.  Yet the great exodus of the Hyksos out of Egypt was as big as anything described in biblical Exodus, and it was a fully secular event -- perhaps coming to be interpreted as the Israelite Exodus in the course of time (so Josephus).

2 hours ago, JAHS said:

3.  Well I guess I have my own definition of what a miracle is, but I do agree that many of these, what I and most any other religious person call miracles,
may have been natural phenomena that the people back then simply didn't understand yet.  Although hail mixed with fire and a man spending 3 days inside a fish are hard to explain at the time they happened.

You are mixing metaphors and myths with real history.  Many scholars define certain works as parables, while others are pseudepigrapha.  In still other cases, one is dealing with primeval tales about which no witnesses were available in any case.  They may be largely liturgical in nature.  None of them are professional narrative histories -- a concept which did not even exist in those times.  Thus, diminishing and denying recent "miracles" while exaggerating ancient ones leads to a false disjuncture of time.

There is an additional problem which affects modern life:  We live in modern secular time, while our immediate pioneer ancestors lived in sacred time (a distinction which Jan Shipps emphasizes).  Joseph and his contemporaries were believers who interpreted everything around them in terms of the sacred, just as was true in more ancient times.  Such a romantic view colors everything with sacred interpretation.  As with Arthurian romance, and with Puff the Magic Dragon, once belief has been abandoned, an entire worldview is lost never to return.

You are not aware of it, but there are modern Israeli Jews who actually believe that there are prophets in the streets of Jerusalem -- at least among the Chassidim.  There are powerful expectations among many of the young Yeshiva students there, and they fully believe in continuing revelation.  All around them they can see the immediate, direct influence of God.  Others are blind to it.

[mrmarklin]

The miracles you describe in the Bible took place over centuries. Hardly everyday events. 

Christ’s miracles are the exception, but largely witnessed by a very small circle of disciples.  Mostly only publicized by the gospel writers themselves..

 

i consider the Seagull miracle experienced by the Utah pioneers on a level of any in the Bible. One of those every hundred years or so and people two thousand years hence will wonder how come there are not enough miracles. 

 

Of course we are all so jaded as to miracles.  Witness the cell phone you can no longer live without. And the calling is almost the least of its capabilities. 

[Avatar4321]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The big miracles will come soon.

I'm more impressed with the small ones because they testify to the Lord's love for us.

i saw a miracle tonight. We had a blizzard today. I went to shovel the drive way and sidewalk and found them already done along with my car cleaned off. Amazing that someone did this without us hearing them since we had the window open. Even more amazing they did it without the dog noticing.

It may not be important to others but it sure was to me. It showed me the Lord is looking out for my family.

We don't need to call down fire on our neighbors to see miracles. Often the most amazing ones are small acts of service unexpected and yet very much appreciated

[Garden Girl]

8 hours ago, smac97 said:

"Charismatic":

I wonder about the longevity of a "charismatic" Church.  Sooner or later "compelling charm that inspires devotion in others" must give way to something more durable.

I have experienced miraculous events in my life, including a singular experience that, in many ways, set my feet on my current path and verified my position re: the Church.  But that one event many years ago was both preceded and followed by many, many smaller, more quiet spiritual experiences and impressions which constitute a far larger portion of the composite that is my testimony.

Thanks,

-Smac

 

This is my experience too, Smac...  I had an event involving a health issue that I can only describe as miraculous (following a priesthood blessing), and 2 days later left my cardiologist without explanation... plus the many smaller, more quiet spiritual experiences, including several very definite instances of the "still small voice"'   I think many of us have personal miracles... and I live the miracle of the restored gospel every day...

GG

Edited April 19, 2018 by Garden Girl

[Marginal Gains]

8 hours ago, JAHS said:

I would agree, but it still doesn't really answer the question.  I am thinking it's possible that many of those Old and New Testament miracles were based on things that actually happened but by the time they were written down may have become exaggerated over time with regards to their supernatural magnitude. 

Just like the First Vision account developed over time.

[Marginal Gains]

1 hour ago, Avatar4321 said:

I'm more impressed with the small ones because they testify to the Lord's love for us.

i saw a miracle tonight. We had a blizzard today. I went to shovel the drive way and sidewalk and found them already done along with my car cleaned off. Amazing that someone did this without us hearing them since we had the window open. Even more amazing they did it without the dog noticing.

It may not be important to others but it sure was to me. It showed me the Lord is looking out for my family.

We don't need to call down fire on our neighbors to see miracles. Often the most amazing ones are small acts of service unexpected and yet very much appreciated

Someone sweeping your drive for you is a supernatural miracle? Seriously? When there’s a world full of starving people, abused children etc your bar for something miraculous is a neighbour or ward member sweeping your drive? (Please don’t tell me you think it was the three Nephites).

You have got to be joking.

Edited April 19, 2018 by Marginal Gains

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Marginal Gains said:

Someone sweeping your drive for you is a supernatural miracle? Seriously? When there’s a world full of starving people, abused children etc your bar for something miraculous is a neighbour or ward member sweeping your drive? (Please don’t tell me you think it was the three Nephites).

You have got to be joking.

Yes, unless the miracle rights all wrongs it is not one. I assume the Second Coming will be the only kind of miracle you would believe in. Hopefully you will appreciate that one.....assuming you are not on fire at the time.

[Hamba Tuhan]

3 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

We had a blizzard today. I went to shovel the drive way and sidewalk and found them already done along with my car cleaned off. Amazing that someone did this without us hearing them since we had the window open.

You had your window open in a blizzard??? 

Edited April 19, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[Garden Girl]

1 hour ago, Marginal Gains said:

Someone sweeping your drive for you is a supernatural miracle? Seriously? When there’s a world full of starving people, abused children etc your bar for something miraculous is a neighbour or ward member sweeping your drive? (Please don’t tell me you think it was the three Nephites).

You have got to be joking.

Hello Marginal...

I don't like your sarcastic scorn toward Avatar... I don't like it at all... 

I suggest you reread Avatar's post again for context... and notice how he was referring to the "smaller" miracles vs what we usually think of as being miraculous...  I too like and appreciate the acts of unexpected and appreciated service we receive... acts that I, at age 77 (now needing a cane to walk and keep my balance), can relate to as being part of the tender mercies of the Lord, i.e., to have friends or neighbors willing to perform such unsolicited acts because of their caring goodness.   

GG

[Marginal Gains]

19 minutes ago, Garden Girl said:

Hello Marginal...

I don't like your sarcastic scorn toward Avatar... I don't like it at all... 

I suggest you reread Avatar's post again for context... and notice how he was referring to the "smaller" miracles vs what we usually think of as being miraculous...  I too like and appreciate the acts of unexpected and appreciated service we receive... acts that I, at age 77 (now needing a cane to walk and keep my balance), can relate to as being part of the tender mercies of the Lord, i.e., to have friends or neighbors willing to perform such unsolicited acts because of their caring goodness.   

GG

I wasn’t going for sarcasm, I was going for incredulity that small, unsolicited acts of kindness are now being designated as miracles. Notwithstanding the welcome nature of such acts of kindness.

Edited April 19, 2018 by Marginal Gains

[Marginal Gains]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Yes, unless the miracle rights all wrongs it is not one. I assume the Second Coming will be the only kind of miracle you would believe in. Hopefully you will appreciate that one.....assuming you are not on fire at the time.

I don’t disbelieve that someone swept Avatar’s drive. I’m sure it was very appreciated. It was a nice thing for someone to do. But a “miracle”? No. Here’s the generally accepted definition of a miracle in religiously based conversation:

“an extraordinary and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a divine agency.”

[Avatar4321]

2 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

You had your window open in a blizzard??? 

My wife likes cold air. I would rather it be warm. She wins

[Avatar4321]

1 hour ago, Marginal Gains said:

I don’t disbelieve that someone swept Avatar’s drive. I’m sure it was very appreciated. It was a nice thing for someone to do. But a “miracle”? No. Here’s the generally accepted definition of a miracle in religiously based conversation:

“an extraordinary and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a divine agency.”

I highly recommend serving people who need it and see how miraculous your ministry to them is for them

[Hamba Tuhan]

9 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

My wife likes cold air. I would rather it be warm. She wins

That's a deal-breaker for me. I once had one of my Russian friends ask about moving into my house. He then warned me that he sleeps with the window open, even in the wintertime. Nope!

[JAHS]

2 hours ago, Marginal Gains said:

I don’t disbelieve that someone swept Avatar’s drive. I’m sure it was very appreciated. It was a nice thing for someone to do. But a “miracle”? No. Here’s the generally accepted definition of a miracle in religiously based conversation:

“an extraordinary and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a divine agency.”

When people call something a miracle they say that because it is something welcome and extraordinary and so it feels like a miracle to them, regardless of what the dictionary says.

[HappyJackWagon]

1 hour ago, JAHS said:

When people call something a miracle they say that because it is something welcome and extraordinary and so it feels like a miracle to them, regardless of what the dictionary says.

One can choose to call the sweeping of a drive by a neighbor a miracle. That's their choice. But to many, myself included, it is very unimpressive to assign supernatural/divine intervention in something so mundane that it could literally happen in every town with snow on a given day. People do kind things. That's not a miracle. It's being human. We should be thankful and appreciative, but calling it a miracle only serves to lower expectations and change definitions for what has traditionally been considered a miracle, like the examples in the OP. Moses parted the red sea. John Smith swept my drive. I doubt the drive will make it into any future scripture. One testifies of God's strength and power, the other testifies of a person's deep desire to find God's strength and power, and become satisfied when someone sweeps the drive. Such attribution of "miracles' renders the word meaningless.

Edited April 19, 2018 by HappyJackWagon

[hope_for_things]

14 hours ago, CV75 said:

While rapid advancement in technology has been advancing humankind for 200 years -- obviously quicker every year -- the inventions themselves are miracles, and so impressive many can't conceive that God had anything to do with them.

I agree that inventions/discoveries have been amazing even perhaps miraculous in some sense of that word.  From a more Pantheist type of conception for God, I have no problem with this idea.  

[CV75]

13 hours ago, JAHS said:

I think that might be possible. I am thinking of what the Pharaoh said in the Ten Commandments movie regarding the plagues:

"When the Nile ran red, I, too, was afraid, until word came of a mountain beyond the cataracts which spewed red mud and poisoned the water.
Was it the staff I gave you that caused all this? Was it the wonder of your god that fish should die and frogs should leave the waters?
Was it a miracle that flies and lice should bloat upon their carrion and spread disease in both man and beast?
These things were ordered by themselves, and not by any god."

But then again there was the Hail mixed with fire that is a little harder to explain.

That (Exodus 9:24) might really be meteorites; note it is preceded by "small dust" (verse 9) which might be suspended meteorite dust which often occurs with the passing of meteorites.

“'Hailstones [abne elgabish]'. What are 'abne elgabish'? A Tanna taught: Stones [abanim]

which remained suspended for the sake of a man ['al gab ish] and came down for the sake of a man. 'They remained suspended for the sake of a man': this was Moses…” (The Bablyonia Talmud Tractate Berakhoth, 54b).

“As a rule, fire and water are elements at war with each other, but in the hailstones that smote the land of Egypt they were reconciled. A fire rested in the hailstones as the burning wick swims in the oil of a lamp; the surrounding fluid cannot extinguish the flame. The Egyptians were smitten either by the hail or by the fire… [new paragraph] …Moses went a short distance out of the city from Pharaoh, and spread abroad his hands unto the Lord, for he did not desire to pray to God within, where there were many idols and images. At once the hail remained suspended in the air…” (Ginsberg, Legends VI).

"The ancient Egyptian word for hail, "ar" is also applied to a driving shower of sand and stones; in the contest between Horus and Seth, Isis is described as sending upon the latter "ar n sa", a "hail of sand." (A. Macalister, "Hail", in "Hastings: Dictionary of the Bible (1901-1904).

Related to this, "The Egyptians were smitten either by the hail or by the fire. In the one case as the other their flesh was seared, and the bodies of the many that were slain by the hail were consumed by the fire. The hailstones heaped themselves up like a wall, so that the carcasses of the slain beasts could not be removed, and if the people succeeded in dividing the dead animals and carrying their flesh off, the birds of prey would attack them on their way home, and snatch their prize away. But the vegetation in the field suffered even more than man and beast, for the hail came down like an axe upon the trees and broke them. That the wheat and the spelt were not crushed was a miracle." (The Bablyonia Talmud Tractate Berakhoth, 54b).

[ElPatron]

15 hours ago, Duncan said:

or the 1992 AND 1993 Toronto Blue Jays! While the subject has been broached, one thing that puzzles outsiders is why are the World series called that? There is only one country usually in it with the rare exception of Canada, what is so "World" about the "World Series"? did Guatemala, Italy, Mongolia ever field a team?

 

[CV75]

22 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I agree that inventions/discoveries have been amazing even perhaps miraculous in some sense of that word.  From a more Pantheist type of conception for God, I have no problem with this idea.  

I think the idea works with the concepts of divine councils, angels of dispensations, generations (as in D&C 20: 11 and 84:17) and the light of Christ as well, and these concepts in turn can accommodate certain elements of pantheism.

[ElPatron]

I’m glad this topic came up because I’ve been pondering it since an experience I had Just prior to General Conf. I already shared in another post that I was In Utah the week prior to conf on business and was in downtown SLC Thursday night. A training meeting had just let out from the JMB and a flood of General Authorities came out of the building heading to their hotels. As I previously mentioned, Elder Gong was one of them. I was In normal street clothes pretty much swimming up stream against the flow of blue and black suits and noticed that I was Passing about 3 to 4 people on the sidewalk asking for financial assistance. All were able bodied except one. One was an obvious handicapped man in a wheelchair that appeared partially blind. One young man came up to me and asked me for even some change and I turned him away and then it dawned on me what was occurring. (Yes, I’ve been to downtown SLC many times and Temple Square and I’m well aware of the homelessness and vagrancy in the area and the caution of scams as well. I assume there’s probably even instruction in place to be cautious of those asking for assistance.) Amongst all of this church leadership, no one was giving the time of day to those on the street that were in obvious need. Neither was I. My guilt overcame me and I quickly tracked down the man and gave him a couple of dollars and he was very appreciative. That night I ponderd As to why the brethren didn’t do more. Yes, I was Judging. I was Also lumping myself in there. Why couldn’t one of them use the Priesthood and heal the man in the wheelchair. I’m sure Christ would have. Why didn’t I or Why couldn’t I ? I hold the same Priesthood. I know If I would Have taken him by the hand and said with all of my faith arise and be healed, nothing would have happened and all of those General Authorities would have been saying “glad I didnt try that!”. So, do miracles like this happen anymore? I certainly Don’t see them happening if we’re not even paying attention to stopping to even see if someone needs help. Just some thoughts I had. Sorry for the ramble. 

[Marginal Gains]

1 hour ago, ElPatron said:

I’m glad this topic came up because I’ve been pondering it since an experience I had Just prior to General Conf. I already shared in another post that I was In Utah the week prior to conf on business and was in downtown SLC Thursday night. A training meeting had just let out from the JMB and a flood of General Authorities came out of the building heading to their hotels. As I previously mentioned, Elder Gong was one of them. I was In normal street clothes pretty much swimming up stream against the flow of blue and black suits and noticed that I was Passing about 3 to 4 people on the sidewalk asking for financial assistance. All were able bodied except one. One was an obvious handicapped man in a wheelchair that appeared partially blind. One young man came up to me and asked me for even some change and I turned him away and then it dawned on me what was occurring. (Yes, I’ve been to downtown SLC many times and Temple Square and I’m well aware of the homelessness and vagrancy in the area and the caution of scams as well. I assume there’s probably even instruction in place to be cautious of those asking for assistance.) Amongst all of this church leadership, no one was giving the time of day to those on the street that were in obvious need. Neither was I. My guilt overcame me and I quickly tracked down the man and gave him a couple of dollars and he was very appreciative. That night I ponderd As to why the brethren didn’t do more. Yes, I was Judging. I was Also lumping myself in there. Why couldn’t one of them use the Priesthood and heal the man in the wheelchair. I’m sure Christ would have. Why didn’t I or Why couldn’t I ? I hold the same Priesthood. I know If I would Have taken him by the hand and said with all of my faith arise and be healed, nothing would have happened and all of those General Authorities would have been saying “glad I didnt try that!”. So, do miracles like this happen anymore? I certainly Don’t see them happening if we’re not even paying attention to stopping to even see if someone needs help. Just some thoughts I had. Sorry for the ramble. 

I guess there wasn’t an official photo opp and nobody had brought the helping hands vests...

The difference between you and those General Authorities is that it pricked your conscience and you responded. They didn’t give him a second thought as they went to work on their talks about how members need to be helping the poor and the needy like Christ did.

Edited April 19, 2018 by Marginal Gains