They just don't make miracles like they used to

[smac97]

1 hour ago, Marginal Gains said:

Seeing they could see the Mother, why wouldn’t the officers have been able to see the child regardless of any voice? 

From the article (emphases added):

Quote

Groesbeck, 25, was driving home to Springville from Salem, where she had been visiting her parents. She was killed about 10:30 p.m. Friday when her car went off the road where Arrowhead Trail connects with Main Street. What caused the car to go off the road was still under investigation Sunday. Because of where the vehicle landed, it was difficult for anyone to see the wreck from the street above.

Fourteen hours later, about 12:30 p.m. Saturday, a fisherman spotted the vehicle and called police.

Dewitt was one of the first officers to arrive. The incident was originally reported as a possible abandoned vehicle in the river. But as he got closer, he said he could see the mother inside. Three more officers arrived almost simultaneously at the river.

And that's when they heard a voice.

"We were down on the car and a distinct voice says, 'Help me, help me,'" Dewitt recalled.

"It wasn't just something that was just in our heads. To me it was plain as day cause I remember hearing a voice," officer Tyler Beddoes said. "I think it was Dewitt who said, 'We're trying. We're trying our best to get in there.'

"How do you explain that? I don't know," he said, adding that the voice didn't sound like a child.

"It was a positive boost for every one of us because I think it pushed us to go harder a little longer. I don't think that any one of us had intended on flipping a car over that day," Beddoes said. "We know there was some other help there, getting us where we needed to be."

When the officers flipped the car onto its side, that's when they realized that a child was still inside.

"I was terrified there was a little baby," Dewitt said. "My initial instinct was that she was dead. When we were able to cut her out, pass her out, the first thing I saw was her eyes fluttering. So it was kind of a positive sign of life for me, at least. But knew she wasn't out of harm's way, either."

After Dewitt discovered the child, firefighters Paul Taultomadakis and Lee Mecham jumped on top of the vehicle.

"Got the door open, and Lee jumped up with me and held the door while I kind of got down inside, grabbed the baby girl, lifted her out of the water and unhooked the car seat," Taultomadakis said. "Didn't really think about anything except trying to get her out. Once I got ahold of her, I could tell that she still had some life."

After Taultomadakis pulled Lily out, the police officers and firefighters started passing her up the hill until she got into Warner's arms.

"I ended up with the child in my arms and I just ran up the hill and into the ambulance and we drove off, started CPR and anything we could do to just save her," he said.

Lily was improving Sunday, according to Jill Sanderson, Groesbeck's sister.

...

Several of the firefighters who jumped in the river, which was 10 feet deep in places, were treated at a hospital Saturday for hypothermia.

"The water temperature is so cold, but we don't really feel that until a long time after as far as how cold you actually were," Beddoes said.

All of the rescuers involved said both instinct and adrenaline kicked in once they realized there was a toddler still alive inside the vehicle.

"It definitely picks up your adrenaline a little bit. Once you find out that somebody had been in there for that long and they've got a chance from your efforts, it's very rewarding. It makes everything worthwhile," Mecham added.

And more here (starting at 1:02) (emphases added):

Quote

The car was upside down in the water.  At first, Beddoes and the other officers could see only a driver who was not alive.  But then Beddoes says that he and three other officers heard someone should for help.

"We heard a voice.  A distinct voice.  It wasn't thinking.  I mean, we actually heard someone say 'Help me.  Help me now,' that type of stuff" [Beddoes said].

They jumped into action racing against time to save whomever was still alive inside the car.  

"Something was there," [Beddoes said] "and that pushed us harder.  When we heard that voice, to us, it was that somebody was alive in that car.  Let's get in there and get them out.  So anything we could do to get inside that car we tried to do."

They were able to flip the car over, only to see Lily [the baby], unconscious and strapped in her car seat.  

"I mean, miraculous," [Beddoes said].

Who or where the voice came from may always remain a mystery.  

"We all together said yes, we heard that same voice," [Beddoes said'.  "And so when we talked about it, it was then that it kicked in that the mom was obviously deceased when the car was flipped over, and the baby was unconscious at the time.  So for us it was just, you know, processing, and still processing what occurred and what happened."

Here are my thoughts about this story:

-I don't think we can fully comprehend how or why God does, or does not, do things in terms of intervening in the lives of His children. We simply lack the perspective and wisdom necessary to understand such things.

-I think our limited perspective makes it a bit too easy to put God into a no-win scenario. If God does not intervene to prevent all harm, then either A) He does not exist, or B) He is capricious and therefore flawed/limited/evil. There is, though, a third option: That God has a plan which includes vital concepts such as agency, a fallen world, life beyond this mortal existence, an atoning sacrifice, communication between God and man, and so forth. These concepts help me understand that God's "macro" plan is in place. So I cannot always understand this plan's implementation at a specific, "micro" level, such as the tragic death of the child's mother, or even some "meso"-level events such as the horrors of famine and disease, of atrocities, of natural disasters, etc. Some of these events can be attributed to the wickedness of men and combinations of men, or to confluences of events and circumstances. Some cannot, and it is these inexplicable, seemingly random tragedies that can try our faith the most. Nevertheless, being aware that there is a greater plan helps me navigate difficult questions about why bad things happen to good people, good things happen to bad people, etc.

-I believe the men described in the article could have heard a voice, and that this voice was a prompting from God.

Thanks,

-Smac

EDIT TO ADD: Here's bodycam footage of the actual rescue:

 

And here's another, which purports to be an actual recording of the first responders responding to the voice they heard:

 

Edited May 7, 2018 by smac97

[stemelbow]

I very much doubt there's a great deal of difference between any miracle story a Mormon tells and any other miracle story out there.  Either something miraculous happened or it did not.  An atheist could be miraculously spared from disastrous death just as a Mormon could.  How would we know?  Well we don't.  That's the whole point of calling it miraculous.  But being as such you can attribute the miracle to anything you want.  You can say "well it must have been God" just as well as you can say, "I'm sure there's a natural explanation for this....I just don't know how it happened".  

I'd agree though it gets tricky when you try to break down someone's miracle story.  When it is suggested the police officers all heard a voice, what does that mean?  A voice in the head, or an audible voice from someone's lips?  What does that mean?  Would they not instinctively think the word help when they saw that people were lying in there?  With that said....more power to them.  If they truly felt a miracle was involved for them to save the child, great.  But it could mean a few things:  It was a miracle.  They thought it was a miracle and it was not.  or they thought it was, and its a little more complicated than saying it was or not.  

[Eek!]

1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

 

But Lakshmanan said yesterday that the "abrasions and contusions" on the middle knuckles of Goldman's right and left hands were not consistent with blows against a human. They came when Goldman fell backward into a tightly enclosed corner between two trees, the back of his hands "flailing" against the rough bark and metal bars behind him, the coroner said.

Perhaps a trained martial artist just happened to injure the middle knuckles of both of his hands by flailing them against a tree and/or metal bars that were behind him in the middle of a fight to the death.  Or perhaps not.

I think OJ suspected his son had done it, and maybe he intended to buy him time by dragging out "The Chase" for ninety minutes. 

Edited May 7, 2018 by Eek!

[Kenngo1969]

2 hours ago, cinepro said:

I've thought a little about the subject of this thread over the past few weeks, and the more I think of it, the more I am convinced that they do make miracles like they used to.  The problem is that they are so common and explainable we hardly recognize them for what they are anymore.  As expressed by sci-fi writer Arthur Clarke, " Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. "

Think of all the things we do in our modern life and society, and look at what would have been considered a "miracle" just a few generations ago, let alone centuries ago.

Look at what can be accomplished in medicine.  Travel.  Communication.  How many miracles can the average smart phone facilitate?  In the Book of Moses, we read of Moses being taken up in a vision and being shown the planet.  That was one man.  Now, all of humanity can see the entire planet in a vision.  Look at any of the miracles from the scriptures and ask yourself if we could accomplish the same thing with modern technology? 

Perhaps the reason we see so few miracles being done via supernatural means is because people just don't care anymore.  Technology can give us miracles that are so much more reliable and definable that it's hardly worth it to bother with the seeming randomness of the regular miracles.  We don't want them to "make miracles like they used to."  I would rather fly through the air to any part of the world, instantly communicate with anyone on the planet who has a phone, carry instant access to almost the sum total of all human knowledge in my pocket, have incredible, life-saving medicine available to me within a few miles of almost anywhere I go, and have access to clean water and vast varieties of food at any time of the day. And indoor plumbing.

 

I don't necessarily disagree with you that much of what you reference here is, indeed, miraculous.  Truly, we do live in an amazing time, and we are prone to take quite a bit for granted.  I am the beneficiary of more than one miracle of medical science, as well as several of the other things you mention.  That having been said, notwithstanding the seeming arbitrariness of God in choosing to intervene in certain circumstances while apparently declining to do so in others, your take on what constitutes a miracle stems from a very First-World point of view.  

Whatever God's reasons for choosing to intervene in certain circumstances (or not), I doubt that someone in the Third World, who cannot depend on advances in science, in technology, or in medicine, and, instead, must depend on an "old-fashioned supernatural miracle" (my phrase) if any deliverance from his particular situation is to be had "doesn't care anymore" about the possibility of a supernatural miracle or that would be as impressed with what, for you, are "everyday miracles" as you are.  Just sayin'!  

Edited May 7, 2018 by Kenngo1969

[Calm]

6 hours ago, Marginal Gains said:

I’m not seeking to explain the events, nor object to them. I’m seeking to objectively examine them....

Yeah, with the mention of Thetans, I don't really buy this...

[smac97]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

Quote

I’m not seeking to explain the events, nor object to them. I’m seeking to objectively examine them....

Yeah, with the mention of Thetans, I don't really buy this...

Yes, that was my thought as well.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Exiled]

23 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I don't necessarily disagree with you that much of what you reference here is, indeed, miraculous.  Truly, we do live in an amazing time, and we are prone to take quite a bit for granted.  I am the beneficiary of more than one miracle of medical science, as well as several of the other things you mention.  That having been said, notwithstanding the seeming arbitrariness of God in choosing to intervene in certain circumstances while apparently declining to do so in others, your take on what constitutes a miracle stems from a very First-World point of view.  

Whatever God's reasons for choosing to intervene in certain circumstances (or not), I doubt that someone in the Third World, who cannot depend on advances in science, in technology, or in medicine, and, instead, must depend on an "old-fashioned supernatural miracle" (my phrase) if any deliverance from his particular situation is to be had "doesn't care anymore" about the possibility of a supernatural miracle or that would be as impressed with what, for you, are "everyday miracles" as you are.  Just sayin'!  

Doesn't it depend on one's perspective, then? The first world person has knowledge of how the world works better than the third world person and so the third world person is more susceptible to believing in "miracles" when random occurrences benefit the third world person. The first world person more likely sees things as they are.

[Calm]

15 minutes ago, Exiled said:

The first world person more likely sees things as they are.

When first world complaints are about not getting a big enough house so all the kids can have their own room or a car for everyone who drives, I highly doubt that person sees things more as they are than someone who knows they have no home that night or worries the next epidemic will take their newborn.

[Exiled]

8 minutes ago, Calm said:

When first world complaints are about not getting a big enough house so all the kids can have their own room or a car for everyone who drives, I highly doubt that person sees things more as they are than someone who knows they have no home that night or worries the next epidemic will take their newborn.

Are you talking about your neighbor or someone in your ward? 🤔  Anyway, I think someone from the first world is more likely to attribute random positive occurrences as being due to the randomness that is part of the world.  The third world person, on the other hand, who maybe hasn't had the benefit of a first world education, is more likely to attribute random positive events as coming from magic or deity or the supernatural.  However, I am just a caveman lawyer and I think that the spirits of the dead must be the means whereby I am talking to you right now ....... I write, the dead read it and then communicate it to you and vice versa .... 👻

[JayneAdelle]

10 hours ago, Marginal Gains said:

The before and after X-Rays would be corroboration. I’m guessing the family kept them after such a fantastic occurrence? Did the local media not cover the story? Did the doctors involved not write about it? It would be a brilliant Deseret News story, and I’m sure they’d run it. The world needs to know about miraculous events like the one you describe.

 

Thanks for the suggestion. I didn't find the story of the couple in the Deseret News Archives, but I did find this: 

Dr. Nephi Kezarian, a retired orthopedic surgeon and professor at BYU, has no trouble believing in miracles. He has seen three miraculous healings, all scientifically documented. A blood clot - which would have ended his medical practice - disappeared immediately after friends and families fasted and prayed for him. The process normally takes a long time, if it ever happens, unless a laser destroys it. Rarely does vision become normal.

In another case, a young woman came to his office with pain in her ankle. It looked like she had a very deadly cancer of the tendon. A biopsy confirmed it. It would have to be removed and her leg amputated.

She was blessed by a member of the LDS Church's priesthood, who said she'd have a normal life. She had the tendon removed but refused amputation.

"Going along with her could have led to a malpractice suit," Kezarian said. "I fasted and prayed, then removed the tendon. The membrane of that area looked normal (though lab tests had clearly shown cancer). The report came back that it was now normal tissue. That's a scientifically documented miracle."

[Calm]

31 minutes ago, Exiled said:

Are you talking about your neighbor or someone in your ward? 🤔  Anyway, I think someone from the first world is more likely to attribute random positive occurrences as being due to the randomness that is part of the world.  The third world person, on the other hand, who maybe hasn't had the benefit of a first world education, is more likely to attribute random positive events as coming from magic or deity or the supernatural.  However, I am just a caveman lawyer and I think that the spirits of the dead must be the means whereby I am talking to you right now ....... I write, the dead read it and then communicate it to you and vice versa .... 👻

I am curious as to how many third world individuals you have had indepth conversations with  (seriously, am wondering if this is based on experience or assumptions).

[Exiled]

9 minutes ago, Calm said:

I am curious as to how many third world individuals you have had indepth conversations with  (seriously, am wondering if this is based on experience or assumptions).

I was in S. America on my mission and had many investigators that were susceptible to believing in voodoo magic.  One cast a spell on me, supposedly, so I would have relations with her.  It didn't work, incidentally.  Currently, I live in a place where there are a lot of immigrants from third world countries and I periodically represent them in my law practice.  They seem to take to magic more than the educated do.

[Calm]

Good to know, thanks.

[Kenngo1969]

5 hours ago, Exiled said:

Doesn't it depend on one's perspective, then? The first world person has knowledge of how the world works better than the third world person and so the third world person is more susceptible to believing in "miracles" when random occurrences benefit the third world person. The first world person more likely sees things as they are.

Color me skeptical of your implication that we are all on some sort of an a inevitable, inexorable journey where all other forces which operate on us eventually will give way and we will all be subject solely to [human! ] reason.  Given the limits of human attention, perception, cognition, reasoning, communication, and so on, essentially no one sees the world as it is; rather, he sees it as he is. 

As I told Marginal Gains (apparently you missed it ... limited perception? ) we are all our own triers-of-fact with respect to the existence (or the nonexistence) of a higher power. You reject evidence for a higher power that I, conversely, accept; you weigh the evidence differently than I do (while I don't want to presume to speak for you, apparently, the arbitrariness and capriciousness of an alleged higher power is conclusive evidence of its nonexistence).  OK.  You try your case, and I'll try mine: As our own triers-of-fact, we decide the rules of evidence, what evidence we admit and what evidence we exclude, what weight we give to any given piece of evidence for or against the proposition of the existence of a higher power, and so on. 

That said, essentially, what you're doing here is setting yourself up as a paragon of reasonableness and objectivity whilst all about you, Alas!, are benighted souls who are condemned to flail about in darkness until, at last ... yes, at last! ... we, too, are delivered from our ignorance and are brought into the "light" of disbelief in miracles, in supernatural events, in any kind of a higher being or a higher power and/or in the idea that such a being or power has any sort of a hand in the affairs of humankind, I suppose that's one approach (whether you realize it and/or whether you want to admit it or not, essentially, that's what you're doing): "Choose ye this day whom ye will serve; but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord" (Joshua 24:15).

So you apparently don't have much use for the approach the religiously devout take in the struggle for meaning against life's innumerable vicissitudes and complexities; fine.  That's certainly your prerogative.  But it's not as though the religiously devout are the only ones who struggle with such questions: artists, poets and other writers, philosophers, logicians, and other people of like stripe (both religiously devout and not) have struggled with such questions for millennia.  

 

[Eek!]

37 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

 Given the limits of human attention, perception, cognition, reasoning, communication, and so on, essentially no one sees the world as it is; rather, he sees it as he is. 

This is brilliant.

I think the situation you describe is by design, and whoever designed it was very clever, for the world we see to actually be in part a function of who we are.

Whoever designed this also endowed us with great power:   When we change ourselves, we change our seeing.  And when we change our seeing, we change our world. 

(Not saying that your change necessarily affects my world, but I wouldn't be surprised if it does, however subtly.)

 

Edited May 8, 2018 by Eek!

[CMZ]

On 4/26/2018 at 12:10 AM, Marginal Gains said:

There is a social experiment that was done. Participants were asked to make a buzzer sound but weren’t told what to do to make it sound. They tried all sorts of things like crossing legs, tapping walls etc, trying to find the right sequence. Then the buzzer would sound and they thought they’d cracked it. The reality was, the buzzer was set to sound at random intervals irrespective of anything the participants were doing. 

Which is interesting, in relation to your post.

See? You got it all figured out.

[Marginal Gains]

On 5/7/2018 at 10:44 PM, Calm said:

Yeah, with the mention of Thetans, I don't really buy this...

What is your problem with Thetans? Do you not see them as a legitimate belief? If not, why not?