They just don't make miracles like they used to

[HappyJackWagon]

14 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

So nothing matters unless we can get rid of free will? You really believe that?

That's not even remotely what I said.

Men are weak- but they have the spirit- but that spirit isn't strong enough to effect reliable change = a weak spirit that is unreliable

[clarkgoble]

6 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

That's not even remotely what I said.

Men are weak- but they have the spirit- but that spirit isn't strong enough to effect reliable change = a weak spirit that is unreliable

What I meant was that there is a continuum between completely and totally reliable and unreliable. You certainly seem to be saying what's not totally reliable is the not worth it. Maybe that's not what you mean. Now I'm confused what exactly your position is. My position is that totally reliable is unobtainable if God respects free will and the probation of his servants. Thus we'll have a degree of unreliableness but overall it's reasonably reliable. I don't expect much more than that. Clearly you do but it's not clear why that's a problem or why God should invalidate free will to achieve it.

[CMZ]

On 4/23/2018 at 4:10 AM, Marginal Gains said:

 

Modern medicine seems to work as reliably with or without the addition of the LDS Priesthood. Faith healings seem to work as reliably with or without the addition of the LDS Priesthood. I’m struggling to see why it’s needed in the toolbox if things work just as well without it?

 

Sometimes it works when other things don't. There's all sorts of stories to that effect. And, no, the mere mention of this does not force you to believe it.

[Marginal Gains]

2 hours ago, CMZ said:

Sometimes it works when other things don't. There's all sorts of stories to that effect. And, no, the mere mention of this does not force you to believe it.

There is a social experiment that was done. Participants were asked to make a buzzer sound but weren’t told what to do to make it sound. They tried all sorts of things like crossing legs, tapping walls etc, trying to find the right sequence. Then the buzzer would sound and they thought they’d cracked it. The reality was, the buzzer was set to sound at random intervals irrespective of anything the participants were doing. 

Which is interesting, in relation to your post.

Edited April 26, 2018 by Marginal Gains

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Marginal Gains said:

There is a social experiment that was done. Participants were asked to make a buzzer sound but weren’t told what to do to make it sound. They tried all sorts of things like crossing legs, tapping walls etc, trying to find the right sequence. Then the buzzer would sound and they thought they’d cracked it. The reality was, the buzzer was set to sound at random intervals irrespective of anything the participants were doing.

CFR please.

Edited April 26, 2018 by Calm

[Marginal Gains]

6 hours ago, Marginal Gains said:

There is a social experiment that was done. Participants were asked to make a buzzer sound but weren’t told what to do to make it sound. They tried all sorts of things like crossing legs, tapping walls etc, trying to find the right sequence. Then the buzzer would sound and they thought they’d cracked it. The reality was, the buzzer was set to sound at random intervals irrespective of anything the participants were doing. 

Which is interesting, in relation to your post.

 

4 hours ago, Calm said:

CFR please.

It was a study done in Japan which was included in Michael Schermer’s book ‘The Believing Brain’.

[stemelbow]

20 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

It's definitely speaking to the church, but I'm not sure I find your argument convincing. If it said, "every man in the Church..." I'd agree with you. But I don't think it makes sense to limit "every man" to "every man in the Church" without good reason. If it intended that then that's an odd way to put it (IMO).

There is good reason to see it that way.  Every gift of the spirit mentioned is in the context of being in the Church.  And it says the gift is given to those who ask (assuming many non-believers haven't asked nothing, then it's safe to assume it is by implication suggesting there is not gifts given to others).  If you disagree, just saying so doesn't help much.  I laid out my reasons and I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with.  Another interesting part of the section which I alluded to is wherein a bishop is to use discernment to find these gifts in the members. 

Quote

are to have it given unto them to discern all those gifts lest there shall be any among you professing and yet be not of God.

It's as if it is saying he should discern those gifts in another who is professing belief and by that measure are to identify those who are not of God.  This also tends to give the impression that if not any of those gifts, they are not of God.  But that couldn't be if the focus is on every man.  But again, the section is clearly speaking about gifts given to those of the Church.  "every man" is to be read in that context.  

 

Quote

But it's somewhat beside the point since you seem to admit later that it's Church doctrine that non-Mormons can have spiritual gifts. In which case I'll not debate the exegesis of 46 (and I'll fully admit yours is a valid reading) since the whole issue was whether Mormons think non-Mormons can have gifts. 

I didn't say anything about Church doctrine.  But the point I raised is in response to you bringing up the section.  The section does nto support your point, according to the reasoning I laid out and you dismissed.  

Quote

 

I think we have to distinguish between the Church in aggregate and with respect to every particular. Put an other way, you are saying that if the Church is special those gifts are had by all and are always attended to. But of course that makes little sense if there is free will. The gifts tend to not function if you are not exercising faith and are not in tune with the spirit.

I know this piece was in response to Happy Jack, but....Now I'm not sure you are making sense, or staying consistent.  If the gifts are only functional when one exercises faith and are in tune with the spirit, where does that leave those who don't exercise faith and therefore are not in tune with the spirit?  If you're argument is that section 46 tells us that every person out there has gifts (even if it only lists gifts in context of Church members) and then says the gifts only work if someone exercises faith and is in tune with the spirit, then what is really relevant here, what gifts to heal does someone have who is not exercising faith and therefore not in tune?  

I initially read your allusion to section 46 dismissive of the many concerns raised.  When I went to section 46 and read it in context, I realized you were hoping it was solving a problem that it did not address.  

 

 

Edited April 26, 2018 by stemelbow

[SJR3t2]

We must be forgiven of all our sins to perform miracles.

3 Nephi 8:1 And now it came to pass that according to our record, and we know our record to be true, for behold, it was a just man who did keep the record—for he truly did many miracles in the name of Jesus; and there was not any man who could do a miracle in the name of Jesus save he were cleansed every whit from his iniquity—

[SJR3t2]

Nephi raising his brother from the dead in front of wicked people.

3 Nephi 7
18 And it came to pass that they were angry with him, even because he had greater power than they, for it were not possible that they could disbelieve his words, for so great was his faith on the Lord Jesus Christ that angels did minister unto him daily.
19 And in the name of Jesus did he cast out devils and unclean spirits; and even his brother did he raise from the dead, after he had been stoned and suffered death by the people.
20 And the people saw it, and did witness of it, and were angry with him because of his power; and he did also do many more miracles, in the sight of the people, in the name of Jesus.

[SJR3t2]

Aaron performed a miracle in front of people with hard of hearts and who wanted to kill him. But because of the miracle that was performed in front of the wicked and the preaching the hard hearted were converted to the Lord.

Alma 22
22 Now when Aaron saw the determination of the queen, he, also knowing the hardness of the hearts of the people, feared lest that a multitude should assemble themselves together, and there should be a great contention and a disturbance among them; therefore he put forth his hand and raised the king from the earth, and said unto him: Stand. And he stood upon his feet, receiving his strength.
23 Now this was done in the presence of the queen and many of the servants. And when they saw it they greatly marveled, and began to fear. And the king stood forth, and began to minister unto them. And he did minister unto them, insomuch that his whole household were converted unto the Lord.

[SJR3t2]

No Miracles no Progression

Alma 37
40 And it did work for them according to their faith in God; therefore, if they had faith to believe that God could cause that those spindles should point the way they should go, behold, it was done; THEREFORE THEY HAD THIS MIRACLE, AND ALSO MANY OTHER MIRACLES WROGHT BY THE POWER OF GOD, DAY BY DAY.
41 Nevertheless, because those miracles were worked by small means it did show unto them marvelous works. They were slothful, and forgot to exercise their faith and diligence and THEN THOSE MARVELOUS WORKS CEASED, AND THEY DID NOT PROGRESS IN THEIR JOURNEY;
42 Therefore, they tarried in the wilderness, or did not travel a direct course, and were afflicted with hunger and thirst, because of their transgressions.
43 … even so it is with things which are spiritual.

[SJR3t2]

Abish, a women, healed the queen

https://seekingyhwh.com/2017/11/28/abish-a-women-healed-the-queen/

[nuclearfuels]

On 4/18/2018 at 5:54 PM, JAHS said:

Noah's flood; the plagues of Egypt; the parting of the Red sea; Sodom and Gomorrah; the walls of Jericho; Serpent healing Israelites; Sun and moon standing still; Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego in the fire;
Daniel and the Lions den; Jonah in belly of fish; Jesus turning water into wine; raising a man from the dead; Walking on water, feeding 4,000, etc

We claim we have the fullness of the Gospel now along with Prophets, Apostles, and the priesthood. And yes we do see some miracles of healing and crickets eating locusts and other things we can call miracles that are either answers to prayers or priesthood blessings.  
But why do we not today see these big more dramatic displays that affect a much larger audience of people like there were in the Old and New Testaments and even the Book of Mormon times?
We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. Could mis-translations have caused the stories to be exaggerated?
Do we simply not need to see those kinds of miracles in our day?  
I know there are those who don't take such scripture stories literally, but this question is more for those who do accept them as real and actual occurrences.
 

Before the Second Coming, (as with prior destructions) there must be "ripeness of iniquity."

That's why. This ripening also, ideally, makes the faithful stronger, chastened, etc. etc.

Also, the signs of the Last Days are hard to miss but most of the world not only doesnt recognize them but woudln't knwo what to look for and simply dont care (even if they are aware). 

 

[Marginal Gains]

14 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Before the Second Coming, (as with prior destructions) there must be "ripeness of iniquity."

That's why. This ripening also, ideally, makes the faithful stronger, chastened, etc. etc.

Also, the signs of the Last Days are hard to miss but most of the world not only doesnt recognize them but woudln't knwo what to look for and simply dont care (even if they are aware). 

 

But the world is getting safer and people are living longer due to improvements in health and nutrition. In what way is humanity ‘ripening’ towards destruction?

[nuclearfuels]

1 hour ago, Marginal Gains said:

But the world is getting safer and people are living longer due to improvements in health and nutrition. In what way is humanity ‘ripening’ towards destruction?

2 Timothiy 3:1-7

and https://www.lds.org/scriptures/search?lang=eng&query=ripen&x=0&y=0

[Marginal Gains]

On 5/5/2018 at 10:15 AM, Marginal Gains said:

But the world is getting safer and people are living longer due to improvements in health and nutrition. In what way is humanity ‘ripening’ towards destruction?

 

On 5/5/2018 at 11:57 AM, nuclearfuels said:

2 Timothiy 3:1-7

and https://www.lds.org/scriptures/search?lang=eng&query=ripen&x=0&y=0

Thanks for those quotes. I’m not sure how they answer my question, can you explain?

[Stargazer]

On 4/24/2018 at 3:52 PM, stemelbow said:

So it seems you agree with me, priesthood blessings may not bring any power to heal at all.  Great.

No, that isn't what I said.  

It's like my car.  I put gasoline in it and it takes me somewhere.  But if it runs out of gas, and none is to be had, I can hitch a couple of horses or a pair of oxen, and off it goes!  

Priesthood is gasoline.  

And then there is authority.  Another subject, but it has its own power.  If a sick person requests a priesthood blessing and he or she dies anyway, his or her sins are forgiven as an inherent part of the blessing.  The same thing happens when we partake of the sacrament worthily. Both done through the power and authority of the priesthood.  

Although I'm quite sure that if you don't believe it, it won't happen for you.

[JayneAdelle]

I believe that "miracles" are just science that isn't understood yet. Once we understand the science, it doesn't seem like a miracle anymore. We fly through the sky in planes weighing thousands of tons; we can access most of the knowledge of mankind in a few seconds on the internet; we can easily video chat with loved ones across the globe when 100 years ago we may have never seen or heard from them again; we can travel from coast to coast in a few days by car while the Mormon Pioneers dragged their handcarts and buried their dead along the trail for 120 days while going only 265 miles. Huge miracles happen all day, every day. We simply take them for granted. Smaller miracles happen all the time. A member of our ward accidentally backed over his 3 year old in the car, crushing her bones & organs. The doctors couldn't do anything for her. She struggled for life until the elders gave her a blessing. The next morning, she was completely healed. The doctors initially thought the x rays had gotten mixed up with another patient's. They refused to believe what they were seeing.

So, yeah. Miracles are everywhere if you choose to see them or look for them.

[Marginal Gains]

3 hours ago, JayneAdelle said:

A member of our ward accidentally backed over his 3 year old in the car, crushing her bones & organs. The doctors couldn't do anything for her. She struggled for life until the elders gave her a blessing. The next morning, she was completely healed. The doctors initially thought the x rays had gotten mixed up with another patient's. They refused to believe what they were seeing.

I’m struggling to believe what I’m seeing. This is an incredible, mind blowing event. A Priesthood blessing mending broken limbs and repairing severely damaged organs, overnight, without any surgery etc. Can you offer any corroboration for the story?

Edited May 7, 2018 by Marginal Gains

[JayneAdelle]

2 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said:

I’m struggling to believe what I’m seeing. Can you offer any corroboration for the story?

No, I can't prove it. It was just an unassuming young couple in our ward and their child, nobody "special." I didn't think at the time that I would someday need to provide proof, so I neglected to collect "before & after" x rays. If you choose not to believe that one, there are many more very similar ones that I could tell you about, but the nature of miracles is that one sees miracles AFTER one learns to believe in them. Miracles are not a tool to persuade one to believe in them. '"Proving" a miracle happened is anathema to the nature of miracles. There's always a way to question the proof.

[JayneAdelle]

2 hours ago, JayneAdelle said:

No, I can't prove it. It was just an unassuming young couple in our ward and their child, nobody "special." I didn't think at the time that I would someday need to provide proof, so I neglected to collect "before & after" x rays. If you choose not to believe that one, there are many more very similar ones that I could tell you about, but the nature of miracles is that one sees miracles AFTER one learns to believe in them. Miracles are not a tool to persuade one to believe in them. '"Proving" a miracle happened is anathema to the nature of miracles. There's always a way to question the proof.

Actually, Marginal, you said "corroborate," not "prove." But you would be no more likely to believe another stranger's story than you would be to believe mine, so the answer is no, there's no point in someone corroborating my story. 

[Marginal Gains]

22 minutes ago, JayneAdelle said:

Actually, Marginal, you said "corroborate," not "prove." But you would be no more likely to believe another stranger's story than you would be to believe mine, so the answer is no, there's no point in someone corroborating my story. 

The before and after X-Rays would be corroboration. I’m guessing the family kept them after such a fantastic occurrence? Did the local media not cover the story? Did the doctors involved not write about it? It would be a brilliant Deseret News story, and I’m sure they’d run it. The world needs to know about miraculous events like the one you describe.

 

[smac97]

Regarding "miracles," does anyone here have any thoughts about the incident in Cokeville, Wyoming?  

Or this event in Spanish Fork, Utah in 2015?

Quote

Four Spanish Fork police officers all said they heard it.

"We've gotten together and just talkin' about it, and all four of us can swear that we heard somebody inside the car saying, 'Help,'" officer Jared Warner recalled Sunday.

But when they flipped the vehicle resting on its hood in the Spanish Fork River onto its side Saturday, they discovered there was no one inside able to speak.

"The only people in there were the deceased mother and the child," said officer Bryan Dewitt.

"We're not exactly sure where that voice came from," Warner told the Deseret News.

But because of the actions of those officers and several Spanish Fork firefighters, 18-month-old Lily was rescued. She remained at Primary Children's Hospital Sunday in critical condition but was reported to be stable.

Police belive Lily was upside down, strapped in her car seat for up to 14 hours. Her mother, Lynn Jennifer "Jenny" Groesbeck, was killed in the crash.

...

Groesbeck, 25, was driving home to Springville from Salem, where she had been visiting her parents. She was killed about 10:30 p.m. Friday when her car went off the road where Arrowhead Trail connects with Main Street. What caused the car to go off the road was still under investigation Sunday. Because of where the vehicle landed, it was difficult for anyone to see the wreck from the street above.

Fourteen hours later, about 12:30 p.m. Saturday, a fisherman spotted the vehicle and called police.

Dewitt was one of the first officers to arrive. The incident was originally reported as a possible abandoned vehicle in the river. But as he got closer, he said he could see the mother inside. Three more officers arrived almost simultaneously at the river.

And that's when they heard a voice.

"We were down on the car and a distinct voice says, 'Help me, help me,'" Dewitt recalled.

"It wasn't just something that was just in our heads. To me it was plain as day cause I remember hearing a voice," officer Tyler Beddoes said. "I think it was Dewitt who said, 'We're trying. We're trying our best to get in there.'

"How do you explain that? I don't know," he said, adding that the voice didn't sound like a child

What are your thoughts about Tyler Beddoes, one of the police officers involved in this event?

Thanks,

-Smac

[Marginal Gains]

28 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Regarding "miracles," does anyone here have any thoughts about the incident in Cokeville, Wyoming?  

Or this event in Spanish Fork, Utah in 2015?

What are your thoughts about Tyler Beddoes, one of the police officers involved in this event?

Thanks,

-Smac

I think those incidents prompt some questions about divine intervention and why God seems to randomly pick and choose who He intervenes to save or not. If God is behind those incidents, then we can conclude He’s a bit fickle. Inconsistent even.

In relation to the Spanish Fork incident, why did He wait 14 hours before intervening? Why not save the Mother?

Could the interventions have been Thetans? 

Edited May 7, 2018 by Marginal Gains

[ALarson]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Regarding "miracles," does anyone here have any thoughts about the incident in Cokeville, Wyoming?  

Or this event in Spanish Fork, Utah in 2015?

What are your thoughts about Tyler Beddoes, one of the police officers involved in this event?

Thanks,

-Smac

I believe that what some term as being "miracles" still very much occur.  I also believe it has nothing to do with whether or not the people involved are Mormons (or any other religion).

IMO, it's more spiritual than religious.  

Why only give examples involving Mormons?  Just curious....are they the only ones you're familiar with?

Edited May 7, 2018 by ALarson