Dealing with chronic pain/illness at church

[Kenngo1969]

4 hours ago, toon said:

In a zone conference, my mission president once asked for a showing of hands of who would drink alcohol or coffee if they were dying of thirst in the desert and drinking would be only way to stay alive just a little bit longer to be rescued.  Most, probably not being honest with themselves (I said I wouldn't, knowing I wasn't being honest), said that they wouldn't -- that they'd rather die that break the commandment. He then told us that we were idiots. That our lives were too important, and that we should be careful about blind obedience to a commandment when something much more important was at stake.

I know I'm in the minority on this one, and I'm disagreeing with some very smart people.  In doing so, I don't mean to cast aspersions on anyone else.  (Your mission president is an idiot. J/K ) I wouldn't drink alcohol or coffee in that situation, for two reasons, one purely practical and one more ephemeral: The practical reason is that I question whether alcohol or coffee would do enough to remedy the problem; I know that alcohol exacerbates dehydration rather than alleviating it, and, while I don't know for sure, I believe the same is true of coffee.  The ephemeral reason is that all that even the most dire, desperate, desert conditions can do is destroy the flesh.  So what?  I'm going to be resurrected anyway, and I wouldn't want to have to endure the prospect of making excuses for breaking my covenants when facing my Maker: "But Heavenly Father, I had a really good reason ..."*

*I should hasten to add here that my response here is colored by the fact that, while I'm not going to do anything drastic, the thrill is gone, and it has been for quite some time.  (Left answering phones 20 years ago, eventually decided to go to law school, graduated from law school against all odds, and now ... I'm back answering phones.)  I'm not interested in sticking around for another 30-40 years of that.  If I'm diagnosed with a terminal disease tomorrow ...  

[Hamba Tuhan]

58 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

The practical reason is that I question whether alcohol or coffee would do enough to remedy the problem; I know that alcohol exacerbates dehydration rather than alleviating it, and, while I don't know for sure, I believe the same is true of coffee.

Alcohol is dehydrating, and caffeine is a diuretic (though the extent of its impact is debated). I actually remember reading about a case some years back where a group of people, stranded in a desert, bought and sold alcohol in a bid to stay alive. Those who obtained the alcohol were the first to die, though in the end they all died.

Quote

The ephemeral reason is that all that even the most dire, desperate, desert conditions can do is destroy the flesh.  So what?  I'm going to be resurrected anyway, and I wouldn't want to have to endure the prospect of making excuses for breaking my covenants when facing my Maker...

Yeah. I actually just had a conversation with a co-worker about how desperately I wish I were married so that I could be a viable alternative to foster care for a couple of kids who lost their father 2.5 years ago and now have been abandoned by their aunt. He asked me, 'What about your life?' I pointed out to him that I gave up my own life years ago.

Edited March 29, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[rongo]

15 hours ago, pogi said:

I would never recommend anybody smoke anything. 

You hear all the time in school from students that "marijuana is natural!" I tell them, "So is tobacco; both come from dried plants. But tobacco is out of favor now, while marijuana is natural!" 

I tell them, along the lines of the above, that smoking *anything* is bad for lungs. Whether it's tobacco, marijuana, newspaper, garden weeds, coffee grounds, banana peels ---- doesn't matter. Our lungs are not made for smoke of any kind, and smoke of any kind irritates them and damages them. 

There is this mania nowadays that marijuana smoke is somehow "healthy and natural," and that marijuana in many forms is a panacea for pretty much anything and everything. 

I have an inactive terminally-ill cancer patient in my ward. She told me that she tried smoking marijuana recently to alleviate symptoms, and it worked wonderfully. The problem is that it made her stoned, and she could tell that she could smoke the rest of her life away with her symptoms greatly relieved, but that she wouldn't "be there" for the rest of her life. She has made the choice to live with her symptoms, but to continue spending time with her daughter and granddaughter, sewing (that's what she lives for), and having full control over her senses. I applaud this approach.

[mnn727]

From the article: 

Quote

As a born & raised Mormon I was taught that when you’re sick, you ask God to heal you and if you have faith in Christ, you will be healed. This message is repeated so frequently, and with such surety that I was certain that I couldn’t be sick.

I've been in the Church for 25 years now (I was an adult convert) and I've never heard this once.

[jkwilliams]

5 minutes ago, mnn727 said:

From the article: 

I've been in the Church for 25 years now (I was an adult convert) and I've never heard this once.

I've been in the church twice as long as that, and I have also never heard that, even once. 

[Bernard Gui]

21 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I've been in the church twice as long as that, and I have also never heard that, even once. 

I’ve been in the Church almost three times longer than that, and I have also never heard that. I have alway been taught to seek medical attention in addition to faith, prayer, and blessings.

Edited March 29, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[CA Steve]

11 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I know I'm in the minority on this one, and I'm disagreeing with some very smart people.  In doing so, I don't mean to cast aspersions on anyone else.  (Your mission president is an idiot. J/K ) I wouldn't drink alcohol or coffee in that situation, for two reasons, one purely practical and one more ephemeral: The practical reason is that I question whether alcohol or coffee would do enough to remedy the problem; I know that alcohol exacerbates dehydration rather than alleviating it, and, while I don't know for sure, I believe the same is true of coffee.  The ephemeral reason is that all that even the most dire, desperate, desert conditions can do is destroy the flesh.  So what?  I'm going to be resurrected anyway, and I wouldn't want to have to endure the prospect of making excuses for breaking my covenants when facing my Maker: "But Heavenly Father, I had a really good reason ..."*

*I should hasten to add here that my response here is colored by the fact that, while I'm not going to do anything drastic, the thrill is gone, and it has been for quite some time.  (Left answering phones 20 years ago, eventually decided to go to law school, graduated from law school against all odds, and now ... I'm back answering phones.)  I'm not interested in sticking around for another 30-40 years of that.  If I'm diagnosed with a terminal disease tomorrow ...  

Coffee is a diuretic. It does not cause you to loose more fluids than you ingest with the coffee. It would remedy the problem.

From the Mayo Clinic website.

Quote

Drinking caffeine-containing beverages as part of a normal lifestyle doesn't cause fluid loss in excess of the volume ingested. While caffeinated drinks may have a mild diuretic effect — meaning that they may cause the need to urinate — they don't appear to increase the risk of dehydration.

So yes in the conditions the MP presented it would save your life.

And I believe failing to drink it on religious reasons would be idiotic. Let's make it a more difficult choice, since we are playing "what would you do if?"

If your child was with you in that desert and coffee would save his life, would you withhold it from your child?

[jkwilliams]

Just now, CA Steve said:

Coffee is a diuretic. It does not cause you to loose more fluids than you ingest with the coffee. It would remedy the problem.

From the Mayo Clinic website.

So yes in the conditions the MP presented it would save your life.

And I believe failing to drink it on religious reasons would be idiotic. Let's make it a more difficult choice, since we are playing "what would you do if?"

If your child was with you in that desert and coffee would save his life, would you withhold it from your child?

During my mission, I had some digestive troubles, and our mission doctor told me to drink a cup of black tea with every meal until I felt better. I was horrified, but I asked the mission president what to do, and he said, "I'd do what the doctor tells you." There's keeping the law, and there is using God's creations "with prudence and thanksgiving."

[cacheman]

16 hours ago, pogi said:

I agree that Marijuana needs to be changed from a schedule I drug in order to conduct better studies.  It is ridiculous that it is classified as schedule I! But until all the stupid political hoops are jumped through, I would highly discourage the medical use of marijuana for any non-FDA approved use. 

I am with you on the scheduling change.  Currently the obstacles in just being able to research Cannabis can be overwhelming.  The required oversight creates additional burdens that many research institutions are unwilling to deal with.  It's crazy that something as basic as just transferring materials (even non-psychotropic plant materials) from one lab to another could constitute a federal crime unless the researchers had the foresight to cover all of their bases legally.  It can be difficult to deal with the existing level of political and social resistance to Cannabis research.

With that in mind, the lack of FDA approval is no surprise.  However, we do have a wealth of information regarding the risks of compounds found in Cannabis.  And, we have examples of Cannabis derived medicines that have gone through rigorous clinical trials which evaluated the risks and potential side effects.  And then, we have a multitude of preliminary research using cell and tissue lines and animal models.  The state bears the burden of demonstrating why individuals should not be able to personally evaluate the known risks and potential rewards in using an herbal medicine with a long documented period of relatively safe use. 

As for broad legalization of this plant..... some of my rationale is similar to the rationale you provide in the prohibition thread regarding pornography.  In my estimation, the consequences of prohibition (the drug war in general) are significantly greater than the benefits.  The widespread suffering due to the expansion of the criminal drug trade and the effects of mass incarceration have had profound effects on our society.  On top of that.... Cannabis is widely available and easily obtained despite its illegality.  Our current system of drug policy doesn't appear to work and hasn't effectively dealt with the causes of drug abuse and addiction.  For years, I have volunteered with our county correctional facility in a hands-on educational project.  The inmates that I've worked with have largely been good people who for a multitude of reasons abused and/or became addicted to drugs.   As a society, we have decided that the answer to people in this situation is to take away their freedom, their ability to work and provide for themselves and their families, to take away any financial security they might have, and then call it rehabilitation. In addition, these legal consequences are not borne equally.   Their are racial and class disparities in both the arrest/conviction rate and the penalties assessed.  We need a whole new approach to dealing with drug abuse.... prohibition does not work.  It's especially egregious in the case of Cannabis which has many potential and known uses.

cacheman

 

 

[Bernard Gui]

We have watched the marijuana craziness progress through its various stages up to full acceptance here in Washington. Recreational use is inevitably the next cause after “medicinal” use is approved. Hear that, Utah? If you think people can be religious fanatics, wait until you try to deal with pot fanatics!

Recentlyngot a huge billboard removed from a spot directly across the street from the main entrance to Federal Way High School. It advertised a website that provided maps and locations to the nearest retail pot resources. How stupid is that.

Unfortunately, I was not successful in preventing a guy from converting a residence in our neighborhood into a pot growing, processing, and distributing facility. He said he had two young kids in our school which made him a good citizen and that he was providing a valuable service to people in need. That, too, is stupid, but that’s what pot makes you.

If it truly has medicinal value, then it should be studied, trialed, dosed, regulated, produced, prescribed, and dispensed by a real doctor in legitimate licensed pharmacies just like all other potentially dangerous prescription medicine. Not out of some hole in a strip mall with a pot head spinning signs out on the stree in front of the store.

BTW, illegal pot sales still thrive. All you have to do is undercut the legal dealers’ prices.

Edited March 29, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[cacheman]

17 hours ago, Calm said:

Without an solid explanation as to why cannabis would work for a huge range of disorders of different causes, endless lists of supposed cures makes it look more like snake oil than medicine, imo.

I have little doubt it helps many people in some areas.  I have huge doubt it can suddenly solve the majority of the world's health problems.

Hi Calm,

I just checked facebook, and it says that Cannabis cures 'huge doubt'.  So, there!

All joking aside.... it's true that the claims are likely exaggerated.  However, it's not difficult for me to believe that Cannabis can help many different and unrelated conditions.  Cannabis contains 60+ cannabinoids as well as a number of flavenoids and terpenes.  Considering the number of cannabinoid receptors that we have, and the many different roles of our endocannabinoid system, it's easy to see that there are potentially multiple ways that Cannabis can be used medicinally.  The research potential is endless when you consider all of the different combinations and possible ratios of cannabinoids. 

cacheman

[jkwilliams]

Just now, cacheman said:

Hi Calm,

I just checked facebook, and it says that Cannabis cures 'huge doubt'.  So, there!

All joking aside.... it's true that the claims are likely exaggerated.  However, it's not difficult for me to believe that Cannabis can help many different and unrelated conditions.  Cannabis contains 60+ cannabinoids as well as a number of flavenoids and terpenes.  Considering the number of cannabinoid receptors that we have, and the many different roles of our endocannabinoid system, it's easy to see that there are potentially multiple ways that Cannabis can be used medicinally.  The research potential is endless when you consider all of the different combinations and possible ratios of cannabinoids. 

cacheman

My son's psychiatrist suggested CBD oil, which is derived from marijuana but has a very low THC content, as something he might try to help with his anxiety issues. He's going to school in Utah, so naturally, CBD is illegal there. He picked some up on a trip to Washington state, and he tells me it has helped immensely. Does it really work, or is there something of a placebo effect? I don't much care, as it is helping him. 

I've never tried any type of recreational drug, so I feel ill-equipped to discuss the merits of medical or recreational marijuana. But I agree with you that the stigma against marijuana has hindered needed medical research. The only way to make an informed decision about the merits of marijuana is to study its effects.

[cacheman]

8 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

My son's psychiatrist suggested CBD oil, which is derived from marijuana but has a very low THC content, as something he might try to help with his anxiety issues. He's going to school in Utah, so naturally, CBD is illegal there. He picked some up on a trip to Washington state, and he tells me it has helped immensely. Does it really work, or is there something of a placebo effect? I don't much care, as it is helping him. 

I've never tried any type of recreational drug, so I feel ill-equipped to discuss the merits of medical or recreational marijuana. But I agree with you that the stigma against marijuana has hindered needed medical research. The only way to make an informed decision about the merits of marijuana is to study its effects.

CBD is legal federally as long as its derived from Cannabis with less than 0.3%THC.  There's still some confusion about that in political and law enforcement circles, but they're coming around. 

[jkwilliams]

3 minutes ago, cacheman said:

CBD is legal federally as long as its derived from Cannabis with less than 0.3%THC.  There's still some confusion about that in political and law enforcement circles, but they're coming around. 

I guess I will know who to talk to the next time I have a weed question.

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, CA Steve said:

Coffee is a diuretic. It does not cause you to loose more fluids than you ingest with the coffee. It would remedy the problem.

From the Mayo Clinic website.

So yes in the conditions the MP presented it would save your life.

And I believe failing to drink it on religious reasons would be idiotic. Let's make it a more difficult choice, since we are playing "what would you do if?"

If your child was with you in that desert and coffee would save his life, would you withhold it from your child?

That's a plainly ridiculous scenario "CA Steve," because I don't know very many children who loooove coffee, so really, what you're asking is, "Would I force my child to drink it?"  I realize the many reasons why the two situations are not analogous, but if a young Joseph Smith indeed chose to refuse the only crude anesthetic then available before undergoing a painful leg operation ...  

And Pogi, so, you're impressed with "CA Steve's" poor logic here, eh?  Hmm. Perhaps I've underestimated the degree with which I should turn a jaundiced eye to your posts, as well, but, to each, his own.

Edited March 29, 2018 by Kenngo1969

[Jeanne]

Stay home...let church come to you in the comfort of your own home..just an idea...

[Kenngo1969]

52 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

My son's psychiatrist suggested CBD oil, which is derived from marijuana but has a very low THC content, as something he might try to help with his anxiety issues. He's going to school in Utah, so naturally, CBD is illegal there. He picked some up on a trip to Washington state, and he tells me it has helped immensely. Does it really work, or is there something of a placebo effect? I don't much care, as it is helping him. ... 

CBD oil?   C'mon, man!  Get with the program, Dude!  He shouldn't bother with those sissy extracts! Everybody knows that only marijuana does the trick!

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

CBD oil?   C'mon, man!  Get with the program, Dude!  He shouldn't bother with those sissy extracts! Everybody knows that only marijuana does the trick!

I don't find my son's issues with panic attacks particularly funny. 

[Kenngo1969]

2 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I don't find my son's issues with panic attacks particularly funny. 

I wasn't trying to make light of your son's situation, John.  If there are beneficial components to the marijuana plant, by all means, let's conduct rigorous, double-blind studies to find out what they are, standardize production, and appropriately regulate any useful products.  There are, however, people who have made the exact argument I made in my preceding post.  I meant no offense.  You can accept that, or not.  It's your choice.  I wish you well.   

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I wasn't trying to make light of your son's situation, John.  If there are beneficial components to the marijuana plant, by all means, let's conduct rigorous, double-blind studies to find out what they are, standardize production, and appropriately regulate any useful products.  There are, however, people who have made the exact argument I made in my preceding post.  I meant no offense.  You can accept that, or not.  It's your choice.  I wish you well.   

No worries. I was just a little startled by your response. I know you meant no offense. 

[CA Steve]

55 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

That's a plainly ridiculous scenario "CA Steve," because I don't know very many children who loooove coffee, so really, what you're asking is, "Would I force my child to drink it?"  I realize the many reasons why the two situations are not analogous, but if a young Joseph Smith indeed chose to refuse the only crude anesthetic then available before undergoing a painful leg operation ...  

And Pogi, so, you're impressed with "CA Steve's" poor logic here, eh?  Hmm. Perhaps I've underestimated the degree with which I should turn a jaundiced eye to your posts, as well, but, to each, his own.

Interesting. So when the hypothetical scenario is presented with just an adult, it isn't ridiculous, but when a child gets added in it becomes ridiculous because you believe children who are dying of thirst would have to have a liquid forced on them? I remember as a teenager going on one of those "survival" outings where they made you walk long distances and go without food and adequate fresh water for a few days. A couple of days in we came across some brackish mosquito larvae infested puddles of water that some of us were willing to drink, we were so thirsty, and even continue to try and drink after it made a us throw up. Whether or not the children would actually enjoy the coffee really misses the "dying of thirst" part.

I am okay if you think the whole situation is ridiculous but you chose to respond to the dying of thirst scenario to begin with.

 

Btw the story of JS refusing to take alcohol when he had his operation really isn't well supported and may in fact just be something his mother made up when writing her autobiography. It really doesn't make a lot of sense considering his father drank and so did Joseph as an adult.

[Kenngo1969]

Congratulations, you just made my [IGNORE] list.

Have a lovely day.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

That's a plainly ridiculous scenario "CA Steve," because I don't know very many children who loooove coffee, so really, what you're asking is, "Would I force my child to drink it?"  I realize the many reasons why the two situations are not analogous, but if a young Joseph Smith indeed chose to refuse the only crude anesthetic then available before undergoing a painful leg operation ...  

And Pogi, so, you're impressed with "CA Steve's" poor logic here, eh?  Hmm. Perhaps I've underestimated the degree with which I should turn a jaundiced eye to your posts, as well, but, to each, his own.

Nothing personal Kenngo, I still like your posts, but I just happen to side with CA Steve on this one.  

It shouldn't be surprising that most people on here are going to disagree with you, as you even acknowledged here:

Quote

 I know I'm in the minority on this one, and I'm disagreeing with some very smart people.  In doing so, I don't mean to cast aspersions on anyone else.

I too don't intend to cast aspersions on you.  Each person has to follow their conscience to the best of their ability, but I think you probably recognize that your position is a little extreme here. 

I agreed with Steve because he is correct in that the coffee would save your life in that scenario.  I find it difficult to believe that there is one bishop, stake president, or GA who would advise someone to choose death from dehydration in order to preserve their covenants regarding the WoW, vs life from drinking coffee in this specific scenario.  It feels like a misunderstanding of the spirit of the law to me (like refusing a life saving blood transfusion - JW).  What you are describing is basically suicide.  I would be more concerned about facing my maker and have to explain to him why I chose suicide (leaving my family that I provide for without a husband and father) over drinking a cup of coffee.  I recognize that your life situation might not be your ideal choice at this moment, but I personally don't see that as justification for throwing in the towel - at least according to my personal conscience. 

Look at it this way, schedule I drugs are WAY more dangerous then coffee is (and also against the WoW) when used for reasons other then to preserve life and reduce temporary suffering.  I would treat coffee the same way in a life or death situation and I am beyond confident that God would approve of an isolated use to save my life.  It doesn't make sense that anyone would accept schedule I drugs, chemotherapy, radiation etc. to preserve life, but refuse the radically more benign...coffee as a one time use. 

[Kenngo1969]

33 minutes ago, pogi said:

Nothing personal Kenngo, I still like your posts, but I just happen to side with CA Steve on this one.  

It shouldn't be surprising that most people on here are going to disagree with you, as you even acknowledged here:

I too don't intend to cast aspersions on you.  Each person has to follow their conscience to the best of their ability, but I think you probably recognize that your position is a little extreme here. 

I agreed with Steve because he is correct in that the coffee would save your life in that scenario.  I find it difficult to believe that there is one bishop, stake president, or GA who would advise someone to choose death from dehydration in order to preserve their covenants regarding the WoW, vs life from drinking coffee in this specific scenario.  It feels like a misunderstanding of the spirit of the law to me (like refusing a life saving blood transfusion - JW).  What you are describing is basically suicide.  I would be more concerned about facing my maker and have to explain to him why I chose suicide (leaving my family that I provide for without a husband and father) over drinking a cup of coffee.  I recognize that your life situation might not be your ideal choice at this moment, but I personally don't see that as justification for throwing in the towel - at least according to my personal conscience. 

Look at it this way, schedule I drugs are WAY more dangerous then coffee is (and also against the WoW) when used for reasons other then to preserve life and reduce temporary suffering.  I would treat coffee the same way in a life or death situation and I am beyond confident that God would approve of an isolated use to save my life.  It doesn't make sense that anyone would accept schedule I drugs, chemotherapy, radiation etc. to preserve life, but refuse the radically more benign...coffee as a one time use. 

You're certainly welcome to your opinion.  I'm not sure how far one should take the idea that anything which a person can do, but chooses not to do, to preserve life when that option is available is akin to suicide and, therefore, is displeasing to God.  Is a seriously ill person allowed to say, "You know what? This treatment is too costly, the side effects are too severe, and the chances that it might cure me are too remote to justify resorting to it"?  I believe so.  A couple of years ago, my sister-in-law died of cancer.  I don't know the details of her illness, of its course, of the treatment she resorted to, or of any treatments she might have rejected, but, as I understand it, that's essentially what happened to her.

My sister-in-law is one of the finest people I have ever known.  You may feel qualified to sit in judgment of her if she did not, indeed, "try everything" in an effort to survive (my phrase), but I do not.  In a more perfect world, if The Grim Reaper had come to our extended family and had said, "I'm taking one of you with me, and if nobody volunteers, it will be Rita," I would have raised my hand.

We do not, Alas!, live in such a world.

The bottom line, for me, is this:

Is life precious and sacred?  Yes.

Is it worth going to great lengths to preserve?  Yes. (Trust me: If I didn't believe that, I'd be gone already!)  

I am loathe to sit in judgment of anyone who makes a different choice than I would make to partake of substances of which I have covenanted not to partake when such a choice is made to prolong life. If someone who has made those same covenants makes a different choice in a life-threatening situation, that's his or her choice: It's not mine to judge, and I would not presume to say how God would judge it. 

But are there things worse than death?  I can understand how someone who does not believe in a life to come would believe that the answer to this question is "No," but I can't believe that any devout/striving religious believer would conclude that the answer is, "No."

 

 

 

Edited March 29, 2018 by Kenngo1969

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, CA Steve said:

Coffee is a diuretic. It does not cause you to loose more fluids than you ingest with the coffee. It would remedy the problem.

From the Mayo Clinic website.

So yes in the conditions the MP presented it would save your life.

And I believe failing to drink it on religious reasons would be idiotic. Let's make it a more difficult choice, since we are playing "what would you do if?"

If your child was with you in that desert and coffee would save his life, would you withhold it from your child?

I love moral false dilemmas. What if your child was being held by terrorists and the only way you could prevent her torture and death was to drink a glass of Kentucky bourbon? How about rob a bank for them? Eliminate a political foe? Eliminate your best friend? Would you rather call Bruce Willis, Liam Nelson,  Jackie Chan, or The Punisher? 🤔

Edited March 29, 2018 by Bernard Gui