Calm Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 5 hours ago, will227457 said: Who said that? since when are bishops doctors? if your doctor prescribed medical marijuana and it was legal in your state why would you not be able to hold a temple recommend? For the record I am talking about prescribed medication. Rongo, who is a bishop, several posts above. Like I said you haven't been following the conversation.
rongo Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Calm said: Rongo, who is a bishop, several posts above. Like I said you haven't been following the conversation. Yeah, I for one don't agree that the Church has to accept what is touted as a medical prescription in many jurisdictions (google "how do i get a medical marijuana card"). By that same logic, we have to accept gay marriages as valid marriages in the Church, because they are legal and government-recognized. The KSLstuff posted upthread is interesting to me. If medical marijuana passes in Utah (which seems unthinkable to me, but I could be wrong. Wow), then I could see that impacting the Church's stance. Interesting that the "66% - 77%" support cited among "active LDS" in the Dan Jones poll was for "non-smoked medical marijuana." I wonder what happens to those numbers when smoked medical marijuana is included in the question? In my experience, people start with pills or oil, but then quickly insist that only smoked marijuana helps their condition. The Church is going to have to come out with some guidance on this, because it is now very much in the leader roulette realm. There is literally no guidance, either way, as to how priesthood leaders should deal with medical marijuana. And, are all prescriptions created equally? My google search turned up sites that can get you a card quickly if you need it and don't want to or can't wait to see your doctor. Which is exactly what I would expect of the "sound medical advice" component of medical marijuana. Edited March 28, 2018 by rongo
Tacenda Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 (edited) 37 minutes ago, rongo said: Yeah, I for one don't agree that the Church has to accept what is touted as a medical prescription in many jurisdictions (google "how do i get a medical marijuana card"). By that same logic, we have to accept gay marriages as valid marriages in the Church, because they are legal and government-recognized. The KUTV stuff posted upthread is interesting to me. If medical marijuana passes in Utah (which seems unthinkable to me, but I could be wrong. Wow), then I could see that impacting the Church's stance. I don't know what to think about KUTV, though. It seems like an e-zine version of the SL Trib. Rod Decker, right? I seem to remember him being an outrageous, Jerry Springer-ish type who doesn't like the Church. It's different from KSL, in other words. The Church is going to have to come out with some guidance on this, because it is now very much in the leader roulette realm. There is literally no guidance, either way, as to how priesthood leaders should deal with medical marijuana. And, are all prescriptions created equally? My google search turned up sites that can get you a card quickly if you need it and don't want to or can't wait to see your doctor. Which is exactly what I would expect of the "sound medical advice" component of medical marijuana. I think if you thought of medical marijuana in an oil it might change your perception and the fact that you don't get high. Unless there is some THC in it and you overdose. I don't on mine, believe it or not. And a lot of LDS members believe in holistic means of health care. They are big into the essential oils, Doterra etc. For thousands of years marijauna has been used for medicinal purposes. It's actually in most people's DNA's. https://herb.co/marijuana/news/cannabis-dna I think when people are faced with not getting the medical help they need they'll search for anything possible that may cure/heal/help. And there are millions out there that want that. I belong to a FB group called Cannibus Oil Success Stories. A lot of people go on there and are very worried about the stigma pot has. But when you read the stories it's astounding. If you go to the website and join you can read the stories and can even go to the left and in the box: "search the group" you can put in a specific illness/problem and comments/posts will come up about it. But I hate that this thread may have derailed because of my comment early on, but I guess it goes along the lines that individuals shouldn't be judged by how they go about treating their health situations. ETA: This popped up yesterday on the FB group: Cannibus Oil Success Stories https://makewilliamwell.com Edited March 28, 2018 by Tacenda
rongo Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 1 minute ago, Tacenda said: I think if you thought of medical marijuana in an oil it might change your perception and the fact that you don't get high. I'm definitely more comfortable with pills or oil than with smoking. And a lot of LDS members believe in holistic means of health care. They are big into the essential oils, Doterra etc. Yes, they are. That's a whole other issue (Doterra quackery), but I hadn't thought about that. That might indeed make a significant number of Mormons open to "natural, herbal" oil. But I hate that this thread may have derailed because of my comment early on, but I guess it goes along the lines that individuals shouldn't be judged by how they go about treating their health situations. No apologies, necessary. I don't like it when people whine about thread derails. Some of the best discussion comes when thread go through their twists and turns.
CA Steve Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 (edited) "doTerra quackery" is redundant. You know what they call herbal medicine that works? Medicine Edited March 28, 2018 by CA Steve
Tacenda Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 7 minutes ago, rongo said: I'm definitely more comfortable with pills or oil than with smoking. Yes, they are. That's a whole other issue (Doterra quackery), but I hadn't thought about that. That might indeed make a significant number of Mormons open to "natural, herbal" oil. No apologies, necessary. I don't like it when people whine about thread derails. Some of the best discussion comes when thread go through their twists and turns. Thanks for these replies. I have to add that I hate the smell of it, recently went to Las Vegas and saw the Donny and Marie show, don't judge! We walked to the show on the strip (also saw the Matt Franco show, I'd recommend both) and smelled it in places. And I hate when people smoke to get high, it bothers me immensely and if I didn't know and not have tried the oil, I'd probably be a little skeptical. Of course I can't deny the reports of it helping, people are curing cancers for crying out loud! If done right, I believe in it's benefits, especially when I know it's helped me.
pogi Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 13 minutes ago, Tacenda said: recently went to Las Vegas and saw the Donny and Marie show...and smelled it in places. After the Death of Jerry Garcia, all the dead heads turned into Donny heads! 14 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Of course I can't deny the reports of it helping, people are curing cancers for crying out loud! Are you speaking of anecdotal evidence/reports or legitimate medical trials/studies? Because it is really easy for me to dismiss the former. 1
rongo Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 47 minutes ago, CA Steve said: "doTerra quackery" is redundant. You know what they call herbal medicine that works? Medicine I'm skeptical that there is a lot of placebo effect or even "Emperor's new clothes" effect involved with the "works" part.
rongo Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 47 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Thanks for these replies. I have to add that I hate the smell of it, recently went to Las Vegas and saw the Donny and Marie show, don't judge! Never! My kids loved "Goin' Coconuts" . . . I'm glad you clarified that you smelled it on the strip, and not in connection with the Donnie and Marie show . . .
Tacenda Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 (edited) 38 minutes ago, pogi said: After the Death of Jerry Garcia, all the dead heads turned into Donny heads! Are you speaking of anecdotal evidence/reports or legitimate medical trials/studies? Because it is really easy for me to dismiss the former. I smelled it on the Las Vegas strip or street. There is plenty of evidence if you search for yourself. Unless you think a bunch of people are lying, don't know for sure on that. But did see growths/mole looking, disappear on my leg and back. And it's helping with my hypothyroidism, I'm not taking the meds anymore because they caused extreme anxiety and couldn't even drive on the freeway, now that I've quit synthetic thryroid meds I'm fine again. But this is just my experience. https://makewilliamwell.com Edited March 28, 2018 by Tacenda
Jeanne Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 Tacenda...seriously..Donny and Marie?? I mean seriously...I thought you had more common sense than that...and for heavens' sakes..why did you not invite me?? Duh...
pogi Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I smelled it on the Las Vegas strip or street. There is plenty of evidence if you search for yourself. Unless you think a bunch of people are lying, don't know for sure on that. But did see growths/mole looking, disappear on my leg and back. And it's helping with my hypothyroidism, I'm not taking the meds anymore because they caused extreme anxiety and couldn't even drive on the freeway, now that I've quit synthetic thryroid meds I'm fine again. But this is just my experience. Yep, that is anecdotal evidence. I don't have to think a person is lying to consider personal anecdotes as terribly weak and questionable evidence. There could be a number of reasons as to why a person might see improvement in a disease/condition that has nothing to do with correlational use of marijuana. The whole correlation/causation thingy. Unless it is actually investigated and studied, we can't be sure if anecdotes are due to an unrelated cause, cognitive bias, placebo, flat out lying, or a number of other possible explanations. It is highly unlikely, for example, that a single drug can be credited for making moles disappear on your leg, cure hypothyroidism, treat pain, cure cancer, prevent Alzheimer's, etc. etc. etc. For a more comprehensive and ridiculous list as to what conditions are "claimed" to be treated with marijuana, see here: https://unitedpatientsgroup.com/resources/illnesses-treatable-with-medical-cannabis I do not support medical marijuana use for any condition/prevention which has not been studied in clinical trials. Edited March 28, 2018 by pogi 1
Tacenda Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 (edited) 55 minutes ago, pogi said: Yep, that is anecdotal evidence. I don't have to think a person is lying to consider personal anecdotes as terribly weak and questionable evidence. There could be a number of reasons as to why a person might see improvement in a disease/condition that has nothing to do with correlational use of marijuana. The whole correlation/causation thingy. Unless it is actually investigated and studied, we can't be sure if anecdotes are due to an unrelated cause, cognitive bias, placebo, flat out lying, or a number of other possible explanations. It is highly unlikely, for example, that a single drug can be credited for making moles disappear on your leg, cure hypothyroidism, treat pain, cure cancer, prevent Alzheimer's, etc. etc. etc. For a more comprehensive and ridiculous list as to what conditions are "claimed" to be treated with marijuana, see here: https://unitedpatientsgroup.com/resources/illnesses-treatable-with-medical-cannabis I do not support medical marijuana use for any condition/prevention which has not been studied in clinical trials. Don't knock it till you try it! This list below is sparse. It could go on and on. http://www.kpbs.org/news/2016/jul/06/san-diego-alzheimers-researcher-calls-more-marijua/ Shows that studies can be thwarted because of the classification problem. https://www.alzheimers.net/6-15-15-effects-of-medical-marijuana-on-alzheimers/My favorite is this one! https://medicalmarijuana.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000884 http://blog.norml.org/2010/07/01/theres-been-over-20000-studies-on-marijuana-what-is-it-that-scientists-do-not-yet-know/ https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/drugfacts/marijuana-medicine https://www.cnn.com/2015/04/15/health/marijuana-medical-advances/index.html I want to comment on the opening post, not only physical reasons keep people from church, mental reasons too. Why do members have to be in attendance if they do everything else possible to keep belief and serve or learn in other ways? Edited March 28, 2018 by Tacenda
Jeanne Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 What Tacenda describes sounds much better than plugging meds from pharmacy and/or any on counter drugs in high doses. IMO In my early twenties I tried marijuana once...it was lovely..yet I was so paranoid. Having doses prescribed and/or suited to pain..(especially for those who are terminal)..would be more god send than many other things..and perhaps sustain life longer. I can tell you that those last months with my husband ..(thyroid cancer) ..I would have given anything to ease his pain..to eat..to be at peace longer..and just make those last days a little easier in his knowing that he was going to leave. To put at ease his concern..and just to love him without all the needles..all the humidifiers..and all the PAINFUL awareness. I think if we can find relief legally..in doses prescribe for all things..we can give a little hope for another day..a happier one.
Tacenda Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Jeanne said: Tacenda...seriously..Donny and Marie?? I mean seriously...I thought you had more common sense than that...and for heavens' sakes..why did you not invite me?? Duh... If I knew you loved them so much I would have, haha! Roller skating at the rink to "Puppy Love" is one that brings fun memories I haven't always been a Donny and Marie fan until recently. I started watching their youtube videos! And their interviews, one where they said they didn't even get paid for the Donny and Marie show years ago. The money went to the family company and later the company lost 80 million by crooked unnamed managers, if I'm remembering right. I was impressed that their father wouldn't file for bankruptcy and paid off all their debts stemming from losing all that money. Their show was awesome btw! Edited March 28, 2018 by Tacenda
Tacenda Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 10 minutes ago, Jeanne said: What Tacenda describes sounds much better than plugging meds from pharmacy and/or any on counter drugs in high doses. IMO In my early twenties I tried marijuana once...it was lovely..yet I was so paranoid. Having doses prescribed and/or suited to pain..(especially for those who are terminal)..would be more god send than many other things..and perhaps sustain life longer. I can tell you that those last months with my husband ..(thyroid cancer) ..I would have given anything to ease his pain..to eat..to be at peace longer..and just make those last days a little easier in his knowing that he was going to leave. To put at ease his concern..and just to love him without all the needles..all the humidifiers..and all the PAINFUL awareness. I think if we can find relief legally..in doses prescribe for all things..we can give a little hope for another day..a happier one. I know many people get paranoid on pot or have terrible reactions from it. It's not the end all be all, I know. I wish this had been around for your husband legally or not frowned upon for it's use. I forgot it was thyroid cancer that took his life, I'm so sorry Jeanne.
Jeanne Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 2 minutes ago, Tacenda said: If I knew you loved them so much I would have, haha! Roller skating at the rink to "Puppy Love" is one that brings fun memories I haven't always been a Donny and Marie fan until recently. I started watching their youtube videos! And their interviews, one where they said they didn't even get paid for the Donny and Marie show years ago. The money went to the family company and later the company lost 80 million by a crooked unnamed managers, if I'm remembering right. Their show was awesome btw! Oh...I can just bet it was great...saw the Osmonds at the Salt Palace way back in the late seventies sometime..Oooo...I loved Jay..nobody liked Jay ..because he was mine! I had posters and everything...think I kissed a few before hittin' the hay..I love talent..doesn't matter who they are!!d They did go broke...but it didn't matter..they all still hung together.
Jeanne Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 Just now, Tacenda said: I know many people get paranoid on pot or have terrible reactions from it. It's not the end all be all, I know. I wish this had been around for your husband legally or not frowned upon for it's use. I forgot it was thyroid cancer that took his life, I'm so sorry Jeanne. Well..I smoked it big time..man..I was one scared woman and never did it again. I remember going to sit down on my couch..and missed it....my butt was on the floor and I laughed for an hour until I got hungry... Now I can say have been there and done that..but I know from other people who are older than me in Colorado (friends with cancer) that given a different kind/dose...makes the biggest difference in what may be the last of their lives. My mom went through cancer twice....and lived to see her grandkids born...yeah..a real miracle!! But at one time she barely weighed a little over 90 p9und..(on a 5/11" woman)...can't even begin to describe what chemo did to her.
Jeanne Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 7 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I know many people get paranoid on pot or have terrible reactions from it. It's not the end all be all, I know. I wish this had been around for your husband legally or not frowned upon for it's use. I forgot it was thyroid cancer that took his life, I'm so sorry Jeanne. Thank you. It was such a huge surprise...He found out in August of 97..hung on for Christmas and our daughters birthday.and left us in January. I still just can't comprehend what happened.
Calm Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: I smelled it on the Las Vegas strip or street. There is plenty of evidence if you search for yourself. Unless you think a bunch of people are lying, don't know for sure on that. But did see growths/mole looking, disappear on my leg and back. And it's helping with my hypothyroidism, I'm not taking the meds anymore because they caused extreme anxiety and couldn't even drive on the freeway, now that I've quit synthetic thryroid meds I'm fine again. But this is just my experience. https://makewilliamwell.com Have you had your thyroid tested since the change? I can't remember if you told me. The oil might be masking symptoms as opposed to controlling what is actually wrong (sometimes masking symptoms is good, I don't need to feel pain when I already know what is broken, not a good idea to mask pain and then keep walking around on a broken leg). Fingernail polish allegedly works on some skin growths. It may not be the cannabis that is causing them to clear up, but something else that is shares with other materials. https://www.skintagsgone.com/removing-skin-tags-with-nail-polish/ Without an solid explanation as to why cannabis would work for a huge range of disorders of different causes, endless lists of supposed cures makes it look more like snake oil than medicine, imo. I have little doubt it helps many people in some areas. I have huge doubt it can suddenly solve the majority of the world's health problems. Edited March 28, 2018 by Calm
pogi Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 (edited) 59 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Don't knock it till you try it! I'd rather not take that risk, thanks! Drugs are not harmless. If I cannot measure the risk vs. benefit, I will not take a drug. 59 minutes ago, Tacenda said: This list below is sparse. It could go on and on. It is sparse, but gives me the info that I need, thanks: Quote Why isn’t the marijuana plant an FDA-approved medicine? The FDA requires carefully conducted studies (clinical trials) in hundreds to thousands of human subjects to determine the benefits and risks of a possible medication. So far, researchers haven't conducted enough large-scale clinical trials that show that the benefits of the marijuana plant (as opposed to its cannabinoid ingredients) outweigh its risks in patients it's meant to treat. https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/drugfacts/marijuana-medicine Please read this article that you posted carefully: http://www.kpbs.org/news/2016/jul/06/san-diego-alzheimers-researcher-calls-more-marijua/ Quote To know if THC can actually keep Alzheimer's at bay in patients, follow-up studies will need to confirm this effect in animals and humans. That won’t be easy, he said, because the Drug Enforcement Administration considers marijuana to be a highly dangerous drug with no medical use. In other words, "we don't know if it is effective at preventing Alzheimer's yet. We don't know if the risks outweigh any possible benefits." And this from one of your other articles on Alzheimer's: Quote Researchers caution that their findings were conducted in a laboratory model and that further research needs to be done in a clinical trial before any conclusive evidence can be produced. https://www.alzheimers.net/6-15-15-effects-of-medical-marijuana-on-alzheimers/ Have studies been done? Yes. But they are all preliminary. To use marijuana for prevention of Alzheimer's is premature and reckless. I agree that Marijuana needs to be changed from a schedule I drug in order to conduct better studies. It is ridiculous that it is classified as schedule I! But until all the stupid political hoops are jumped through, I would highly discourage the medical use of marijuana for any non-FDA approved use. Edited March 28, 2018 by pogi
toon Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 23 hours ago, rongo said: I'm not convinced that it is ever necessary to smoke it. I am much more open to pills or oil, but I find that the people who want to argue about it want to smoke it. And in my judgment, they aren't as incapacitated without smoking it as they insist. The advantage of smoking/vape as opposed to some form or oral delivery is the time it take to feel the effects and, related to that, the ability to better control the dosage. Most people who smoke/vape don't get as high as when they consume cannabis orally. The reason is that the effects are close to instantaneous, so they know better when to stop. 1
toon Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 23 hours ago, strappinglad said: Hopefully , as MJ gets off the schedule 1 ? restrictions, much more substantial research can and will be done on the medicinal effects and side effects of various kinds of cannabis . It took a long time before the real hazards of tobacco came to the fore . That said, if a statement does come out about cannabis from the Church , it will become a measure of obedience to comply just as the WoW is now. We currently get battling studies about the value of coffee and alcohol and tea etc. If any of those were ' prescribed ' would that make a difference in the TR interview ? A comp in the mission was prescribed a small hot toddy and the MP concurred. Didn't seem to affect his worthiness. Hmmmm ! In a zone conference, my mission president once asked for a showing of hands of who would drink alcohol or coffee if they were dying of thirst in the desert and drinking would be only way to stay alive just a little bit longer to be rescued. Most, probably not being honest with themselves (I said I wouldn't, knowing I wasn't being honest), said that they wouldn't -- that they'd rather die that break the commandment. He then told us that we were idiots. That our lives were too important, and that we should be careful about blind obedience to a commandment when something much more important was at stake. 2
pogi Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 5 minutes ago, toon said: The advantage of smoking/vape as opposed to some form or oral delivery is the time it take to feel the effects and, related to that, the ability to better control the dosage. Most people who smoke/vape don't get as high as when they consume cannabis orally. The reason is that the effects are close to instantaneous, so they know better when to stop. Some potential disadvantages to smoking: Quote Although regular marijuana smoking leads to bronchial epithelial ciliary loss and impairs the microbicidal function of alveolar macrophages, evidence is inconclusive regarding possible associated risks for lower respiratory tract infection. Several case reports have implicated marijuana smoking as an etiologic factor in pneumothorax/pneumomediastinum and bullous lung disease, although evidence of a possible causal link from epidemiologic studies is lacking. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23802821 In other words, your cilia (which clear your airway of dirt and mucus) can be damaged, leading to smokers cough - nasty!. Alveolar macrophages impairment will impair immune function, and it may or may not increase risk for pneumonia and other lower respiratory infections. But I always give the pneumococcal vaccine to marijuana smokers because of the theoretical risk. And it may potential be a risk for several other pulmonary diseases mentioned. I would never recommend anybody smoke anything. 2
SteveO Posted March 29, 2018 Posted March 29, 2018 2 hours ago, toon said: In a zone conference, my mission president once asked for a showing of hands of who would drink alcohol or coffee if they were dying of thirst in the desert and drinking would be only way to stay alive just a little bit longer to be rescued. Most, probably not being honest with themselves (I said I wouldn't, knowing I wasn't being honest), said that they wouldn't -- that they'd rather die that break the commandment. He then told us that we were idiots. That our lives were too important, and that we should be careful about blind obedience to a commandment when something much more important was at stake. For the record, if I ever get cancer, my kitchen is being turned into a brownie bakery...and I don’t care who knows it.
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