Dealing with chronic pain/illness at church

[pogi]

17 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

You're certainly welcome to your opinion.  I'm not sure how far one should take the idea that anything which a person can do, but chooses not to do, to preserve life when that option is available is akin to suicide and, therefore, is displeasing to God.  Is a seriously ill person allowed to say, "You know what? This treatment is too costly, the side effects are too severe, and the chances that it might cure me are too remote to justify resorting to it"?  I believe so.  A couple of years ago, my sister-in-law died of cancer.  I don't know the details of her illness, of its course, of the treatment she resorted to, or of any treatments she might have rejected, but, as I understand it, that's essentially what happened to her.

My sister-in-law is one of the finest people I have ever known.  You may feel qualified to sit in judgment of her if she did not, indeed, "try everything" in an effort to survive (my phrase), but I do not.  In a more perfect world, if The Grim Reaper had come to our extended family and had said, "I'm taking one of you with me, and if nobody volunteers, it will be Rita," I would have raised my hand.

We do not, Alas!, live in such a world.

I agree with you completely here.  I am not taking it that far.  As a hospice nurse, many times I recommended that certain patients discontinue all medications (except for morphine), as the most humane option, and let nature take its course.  Of course, this decision was up to the power of attorney, but they usually agreed.

However, in a situation where a patient is not terminally ill, and something as simple as coffee (not costly, low to no negative side effects, high probability of success) could save his life...different story.  I would think it near impossible to find a single medical provider (or religious leader) who would condone not taking the coffee.

[CA Steve]

51 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I love moral false dilemmas. What if your child was being held by terrorists and the only way you could prevent her torture and death was to drink a glass of Kentucky bourbon? How about rob a bank for them? Eliminate a political foe? Eliminate your best friend? Would you rather call Bruce Willis, Liam Nelson,  Jackie Chan, or The Punisher? 🤔

You do realize that the original "false dilemma" in this was another poster quoting his MP right?

 

Edited March 29, 2018 by CA Steve

[Kenngo1969]

15 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

You do realize that the original "false dilemma" in this was another poster quoting his MP right?

 

Replying against my better judgment ...  

So what?  A false dilemma is a false dilemma.  Mission Presidents are as prone to such faulty logic as any other human being.  (If I were so inclined and if I thought about it in sufficient depth and at sufficient length, I could probably come up with at least a couple dozen false dilemmas and other errors in logic employed by my first mission president.  

"How well did you get along with him, Ken?"  OK, touche.  Not well.

While I would be much harder pressed to come up with any false dilemmas or other errors in logic employed by my second mission president, with whom I got along quite well, I might be able to cite such examples in even his case.  That doesn't change the fact that a Prophet of God called each (and both) to preside over my mission when they did.  They were men of God, Priesthood leaders, and my file leaders, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're experts in everything (Yes, I know, you're going to quote Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet to me now. )

But even Joseph Smith didn't always speak as a prophet of God, and he acknowledged as much.  When I need a logical proposition, I'll call a logician or a philosopher; when I want spiritual guidance (and where I think this mission president errs is in prioritizing the mortal over the spiritual), I'll consult someone in that sphere.  In the meantime, I'll do my best to not conflate the two: When I need medical treatment, I'll call a doctor; when I need legal advice, I'll call a lawyer, and so on.

[CA Steve]

4 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Replying against my better judgment ...  

So what?  A false dilemma is a false dilemma.  Mission Presidents are as prone to such faulty logic as any other human being.  (If I were so inclined and if I thought about it in sufficient depth and at sufficient length, I could probably come up with at least a couple dozen false dilemmas and other errors in logic employed by my first mission president.  

"How well did you get along with him, Ken?"  OK, touche.  Not well.

While I would be much harder pressed to come up with any false dilemmas or other errors in logic employed by my second mission president, with whom I got along quite well, I might be able to cite such examples in even his case.  That doesn't change the fact that a Prophet of God called each (and both) to preside over my mission when they did.  They were men of God, Priesthood leaders, and my file leaders, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're experts in everything (Yes, I know, you're going to quote Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet to me now. )

But even Joseph Smith didn't always speak as a prophet of God, and he acknowledged as much.  When I need a logical proposition, I'll call a logician or a philosopher; when I want spiritual guidance (and where I think this mission president errs is in prioritizing the mortal over the spiritual), I'll consult someone in that sphere.  In the meantime, I'll do my best to not conflate the two: When I need medical treatment, I'll call a doctor; when I need legal advice, I'll call a lawyer, and so on.

I am not sure why this is coming across so badly as it is. I think maybe I do not realize when something  sets others off. So let me try this again. Perhaps we can see that while we may differ we do not have to do so acrimoniously.

The thread  took a turn from dealing with pain at church to whether or not it was proper to use marijuana as a medication. Trying to show an alternate example to that a poster named Toon told a story about his MP trying to show them that under dire circumstances (what is now being labeled as a false dilemma) even coffee would be alright and the mission president labeled those who would even decline to use coffee in those circumstances as "idiots". I agreed and felt like while we may make such a radical decision for ourselves, certainly we would not for our loved ones. The example of dying of thirst was not mine and is admittedly a very unlikely situation, but then so is the one you used for Joseph Smith. How many of us are likely to be put in that situation?  So I am fine with you or Bernard thinking it is a dilemma that will never happen to us. I suspect that the MP didn't really think any of his missionaries would have to ever make that choice either, but one can still make a point about decision making even if the situation is unlikely, in fact, that only reinforces the point, which is, we shouldn't be so concerned with letter of the law type decisions as we sometime are.

As far as smoking marijuana to alleviate pain, I think that is a choice the person who is in pain should be allowed to make without feeling like God wants him/her to suffer for the sake of following the WoW. At a minimum it should be an option open to all.

[Kenngo1969]

12 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

... [O]ne can still make a point about decision making even if the situation is unlikely [i.e., consuming alcohol or coffee to stay alive, even though, such acts technically would violate the Word of Wisdom], in fact, that only reinforces the point, which is, we shouldn't be so concerned with letter of the law type decisions as we sometime are.

In the abstract, I agree with that broader principle.  As I have already explained, I will not pass judgment on anyone who is under the same covenant to obey the Word of Wisdom as I am but who makes a different decision under those circumstances.

Quote

As far as smoking marijuana to alleviate pain, I think that is a choice the person who is in pain should be allowed to make without feeling like God wants him/her to suffer for the sake of following the WoW. At a minimum it should be an option open to all.

Again, as I have also previously explained, that, also, is their choice, and judgment is not mine to render, even if I might make a different choice under the same circumstances.

[mnn727]

49 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

 

As far as smoking marijuana to alleviate pain, I think that is a choice the person who is in pain should be allowed to make without feeling like God wants him/her to suffer for the sake of following the WoW. At a minimum it should be an option open to all.

Not having converted until my 38th year, I was not LDS growing up. I did use marijuana in the early 1970's (as a teen) and found it to be mostly harmless, although it made me very relaxed and sleepy. During my 20's and most of my 30's I also drank socially. Of the two, I would consider marijuana the least problematic and the only reason I didn't do it in my 20's and 30's was because it was illegal.

I would probably use it for pain abatement today if I were in great pain and it was legal. I wanted to have some before I had my back surgery last year ( my pain level was about a 9 on a scale of 10) but had no source, so I got hooked on opiods and then had to unhook myself afterwards. (relaxed and sleepy was what I needed)

- just my actual experience.

Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with prudence and thanksgiving.

Edited March 29, 2018 by mnn727

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, CA Steve said:

You do realize that the original "false dilemma" in this was another poster quoting his MP right?

 

Certainly. I love them because they can go on forever, they are fun to dream up, and they don't mean anything. Was your response to him supposed to be taken seriously? Mine wasn't.

Edited March 30, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

8 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

During my mission, I had some digestive troubles, and our mission doctor told me to drink a cup of black tea with every meal until I felt better. I was horrified, but I asked the mission president what to do, and he said, "I'd do what the doctor tells you." There's keeping the law, and there is using God's creations "with prudence and thanksgiving."

My MP was a pharmacist and he recommended we drink Coke when we got the Dreaded Gambu. Well, Coke was about all we could drink anyway because most other beverages would give you the Dreaded Gambu. But remember, this was in the 60s when the Young Women MIA motto was, "Lips that have touched Coca Cola will never touch mine!" It was a hard decision.... relieve the Gambu, but at what cost? 

Edited March 30, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[The Nehor]

The anti-drug scare of my youth lumped in marijuana with LSD and cocaine and all the rest for some reason and we are still recovering from that association.

Then again making it available with a prescription has seen prescriptions from shady doctors skyrocket. Then again that is how much of the opioid epidemic works as well and we have not banned those for medical use.

[The Nehor]

4 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

My MP was a pharmacist and he recommended we drink Coke when we got the Dreaded Gambu. Well, Coke was about all we could drink anyway because most other beverages would give you the Dreaded Gambu. But remember, this was in the 60s when the Young Women MIA motto was, "Lips that have touched Coca Cola will never touch mine!" It was a hard decision. 

“Choose the Sprite when a Coke is placed before you.....”

[CA Steve]

19 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Certainly. I love them because they can go on forever, they are fun to dream up, and they don't mean anything. Was your response to him supposed to be taken seriously? 

As seriously as the first post was.

[Bernard Gui]

42 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The anti-drug scare of my youth lumped in marijuana with LSD and cocaine and all the rest for some reason and we are still recovering from that association.

Then again making it available with a prescription has seen prescriptions from shady doctors skyrocket. Then again that is how much of the opioid epidemic works as well and we have not banned those for medical use.

Not so much where I lived in the 60s....New Mexico. We had a ready supply coming up from Ciudad Juarez and most folks around our area just kind of winked at it. I even have an article from our local paper in 1963 from a physics PhD making a case for open recreational use. Lots of folks on the Canyon Road arts scene in Santa Fe smoked it in the beatnik coffee houses. I must add, though, that the only thing I ever purposely inhaled that was smoking was a chunk of corrugated cardboard that one of my 10-year-old friends said was just like smoking a cigarette. It cured me from ever wanting to smoke anything ever again.

If it is truly a good medicine, then treat it like any other medication and dispense it with prescriptions from licensed pharmacies. Putting my health in these guys hands????? Maybe not.

http://www.signspinnerads.com/blog-post/wa-state-marijuana-businesses-leading-clients-sign-spinner-industry/

Edited March 30, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

Deleted

Edited March 30, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Not so much where I lived in the 60s....New Mexico. We had a ready supply coming up from Ciudad Juarez and most folks around our area just kind of winked at it. I even have an article from our local paper in 1963 from a physics PhD making a case for open recreational use. Lots of folks on the Canyon Road arts scene in Santa Fe smoked it in the beatnik coffee houses. I must add, though, that the only thing I ever purposely inhaled that was smoking was a chunk of corrugated cardboard that one of my 10-year-old friends said was just like smoking a cigarette. It cured me from ever wanting to smoke anything ever again.

If it is truly a good medicine, then treat it like any other medication and dispense it with prescriptions from licensed pharmacies. Putting my health in these guys hands????? Maybe not.

http://www.signspinnerads.com/blog-post/wa-state-marijuana-businesses-leading-clients-sign-spinner-industry/

Plus they could regulate quality a bit. My neighbors smoke it and once they got a really subpar batch. For a week it sporadically smelled like a skunk had died out by my car. Fortunately they seem to have gotten better stock since.

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, CA Steve said:

As seriously as the first post was.

Excellent. 

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Plus they could regulate quality a bit. My neighbors smoke it and once they got a really subpar batch. For a week it sporadically smelled like a skunk had died out by my car. Fortunately they seem to have gotten better stock since.

Oh yeah. My son's next door neighbor has it going pretty much all the time and when the wind is right, they get the benefits of second hand pot smoke, which I just saw in the paper is more harmful than second hand cigarette smoke. It's the gift that keeps on giving.

[rongo]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Plus they could regulate quality a bit. My neighbors smoke it and once they got a really subpar batch. For a week it sporadically smelled like a skunk had died out by my car. Fortunately they seem to have gotten better stock since.

You mean it's only the subpar stuff that smells like skunk? I thought that was the marijuana smell. 

[The Nehor]

10 hours ago, rongo said:

You mean it's only the subpar stuff that smells like skunk? I thought that was the marijuana smell. 

The subpar stuff stinks much more strongly. The better stuff is more like mild skunk mixed with herbs. It is not a disgusting smell. The bad stuff smells like pure concentrated skunk musk.

10 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Oh yeah. My son's next door neighbor has it going pretty much all the time and when the wind is right, they get the benefits of second hand pot smoke, which I just saw in the paper is more harmful than second hand cigarette smoke. It's the gift that keeps on giving.

I can’t complain much. It is usually not noticeable.

[Bernard Gui]

On 3/29/2018 at 9:01 AM, jkwilliams said:

But I agree with you that the stigma against marijuana has hindered needed medical research. The only way to make an informed decision about the merits of marijuana is to study its effects.

It seems to me more, scientifically sound, safer, more reasonable, and wiser to do that research before approving its use as a medicine.

Edited March 31, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Kenngo1969]

Reminds me of the time the bishop took my dad, a police officer who was serving as his first counselor, to see a less-active family, and the bishop gave them a discourse on keeping the Word of Wisdom, when, all the while, there was one of the biggest, most beautiful marijuana plants my dad had ever seen growing right smack dab there in the middle of the living room.   

Ahhhh, good times.  

(My dad always said he could detect good dope by how fast it gave him a headache and by how bad his headache was: No word on how bad his headache was or on how fast it came on on this occasion, but if I had to guess ...)  

There have already been more than a few reports of kids being hospitalized after consuming marijuana edibles ... but remember: drug use is a victimless crime!  Yeah, let's legalize it!  

[Kenngo1969]

7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

It seems to me more, scientifically sound, safer, more reasonable, and wiser to do that research before approving its use as a medicine.

https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2015/01/13/bigots-against-marijuana-legalization/

https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2014/01/18/on-medicinal-marijuana/

[mnn727]

8 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

 

There have already been more than a few reports of kids being hospitalized after consuming marijuana edibles 

If they had just waited a few hours it would have worn off on its own. But when your kid is suffering, your not going to wait.

[Jeanne]

Just now, mnn727 said:

If they had just waited a few hours it would have worn off on its own. But when your kid is suffering, your not going to wait.

Nothing worse than seeing your child in pain. Been there done that. 

[flameburns623]

3 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Reminds me of the time the bishop took my dad, a police officer who was serving as his first counselor, to see a less-active family, and the bishop gave them a discourse on keeping the Word of Wisdom, when, all the while, there was one of the biggest, most beautiful marijuana plants my dad had ever seen growing right smack dab there in the middle of the living room.   

Ahhhh, good times.  

(My dad always said he could detect good dope by how fast it gave him a headache and by how bad his headache was: No word on how bad his headache was or on how fast it came on on this occasion, but if I had to guess ...)  

There have already been more than a few reports of kids being hospitalized after consuming marijuana edibles ... but remember: drug use is a victimless crime!  Yeah, let's legalize it!  

For MEDICAL PURPOSES it should definitely be legal. I live in a state where it isx though the Medical Cannabis card is rather costly. No one will be impelled to use medical marijuana,  any more than they currently "must" use NSAIDs or opioids. It will be a tool in the toolbox for those who need & elect to use it. 

For recreational use,  I am of two minds. The libertarian impulse in me wants the government to butt out of most personal decisions. Like most prudent people, I worry that pot-impaired operatipn of heavy machinery or moving vehicles poses a risk. 

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Reminds me of the time the bishop took my dad, a police officer who was serving as his first counselor, to see a less-active family, and the bishop gave them a discourse on keeping the Word of Wisdom, when, all the while, there was one of the biggest, most beautiful marijuana plants my dad had ever seen growing right smack dab there in the middle of the living room.   

Ahhhh, good times.  

My first job was working at the library next to the police station, in San Fran area so gorgeous gardens...including a few quite large marijuana plants that one of the gardeners thought it would be fun to grow there.  Never did find out if he was too toasted to realize the risk or it was an outright razzie to the police or he had a wicked sense of humour.