MormonLeaks: Former Mormon Mission President Admitting to Inappropriate Interactions with Women

[Calm]

45 minutes ago, Duncan said:

my son was into the Wiggles, Australian singing group. I took him to see their show when they came here, he blew his mind out ! which was cool for him! 

That proves beyond the shadow of a doubt you are a great dad!

[rockpond]

56 minutes ago, Calm said:

Someone who is an exwife will generally be more likely to have negative ideas about her former husband than someone who is a wife.  Generally people don't leave a faith because they like it too much.

According to the woman, she didn’t leave the church because she lacked a testimony.  She left because of the abuse and what it did to her ability to trust in the priesthood. 

[rockpond]

42 minutes ago, bluebell said:

The church claims they did in 2010.  Are you suggesting the church isn't being truthful?  (Not trying to be snarky, just trying to figure out if i understand what you are saying.)

I don’t think the church specifically claimed that a DC was held or that a priesthood leader spoke with Bishop about it. Or did I miss something?

[bluebell]

25 minutes ago, rockpond said:

It wasn’t necessary to insert the word “briefly”.   After listening to the recording, I doubt the woman involved would describe it as brief. 

From the use of the word, I assumed the woman went home from her mission fairly quickly after she was called.

If that’s true then I don’t have a problem with them using the word. If it’s not true then I agree it was a poor choice. 

[rockpond]

20 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Seems a bit picky to attack one word in a phrase that supports some facts of the allegation.

 

I didn’t attack it. 

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, rockpond said:

I don’t think the church specifically claimed that a DC was held or that a priesthood leader spoke with Bishop about it. Or did I miss something?

I think you missed something. I can’t check right now but I’ll go back and reread the release to see if I’m remembering right. 

[rockpond]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

From the use of the word, I assumed the woman went home from her mission fairly quickly after she was called.

If that’s true then I don’t have a problem with them using the word. If it’s not true then I agree it was a poor choice. 

The alleged abuse occurred in the MTC.  My understanding from what she said was that she still went on to serve her mission (didn’t say where).  There was something in there about an anxiety attack (due to the abuse) but she didn’t mention coming home early — to the best of my recollection. 

[rockpond]

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I think you missed something. I can’t check right now but I’ll go back and reread the release to see if I’m remembering right. 

You are correct.  I just re-read the newsroom release and it states that an ecclesiastical leader spoke with Bishop about the accusations in 2010.

But Bishop seems to have no recollection of that in the Dec 2017 recording. 

[omni]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

A person stating he knew him said the dementia had been going on for several years.  Another person agreed elsewhere.  I can't confirm that, but it is the language ('I don't remember, but I'm sorry' among other things) that sounds too familiar to me and made me jump pretty much instantly to that conclusion.

He didn't deny the allegations, but if he didn't remember them, how can he confirm them?

How do you think the interviewer was able to describe some of Bishop's sexual proclivities involving his wife, the hot tub experience, the molestation of the sister missionary, and the room the alleged assault occurred in?

While this doesn't prove the assault occurred, I think these details are evidence that at a minimum something inappropriate happened.

[juliann]

 https://cdm.weber.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/WSU_OH/id/64/rec/57

A 1980 account from an employee, taken during an oral studies project, about her employment at Weber State. Short version, she sued because of him and settled out of court. Her account of working under him as President starts at the end of pg. 33. This is not a nice guy even without sexual attacks and the behavior seems consistent in these two unrelated accounts.

Quote

 

JT: Well, yes. I think he made the typical, condescending remarks; he did not take me seriously. I could just see this mysterious look on his face: "Who is this woman? What is this woman saying?" But initially there was a good feeling, I think, between us.

JS: That was pretty general campus-wide too, wasn't it? JT: Yes. But, I began to have some concern when he called me in for a second meeting, and at that meeting quizzed me about faculty women in two departments on the campus, as to whether or not they were lesbians. I found the whole conversation very disturbing because I had never heard of such a thing, I mean that there were any active women on the faculty that were lesbians, and I didn't understand where he got the information, or why he had decided to talk with me. And in the course of the conversation, he asked if there were any students that were lesbians. I told him I was aware that there were some, because some had come to me for counseling, and I was sure that probably the counseling department was handling some of that.

 

Quote

JT: Well, if I hadn't had some of the experiences I had with him, I might agree. No, I'd have to say that I saw him do things which I thought were very malicious. An example of that would be the type of humor he displayed in front of people. It was 38 destructive humor: he'd make fun of their baldness, their weight, where they received their degree, if they had a speech impediment, etc. He did not know how to relate to people and so his humor was very destructive. And, I felt that he was a person without a sense of morality, of what was right and wrong. He was almost amoral.

Quote

JT: Yes. And he would intentionally lie. On occasion he would tell me something and then he would say, "if anybody asks me, if you don't keep this confidential, if someone comes back and asks me, I'll tell them I don't even know what they're talking about."

 

[Calm]

52 minutes ago, rockpond said:

According to the woman, she didn’t leave the church because she lacked a testimony.  She left because of the abuse and what it did to her ability to trust in the priesthood. 

Okay....not sure what that has to,do with my comment though.

[bluebell]

43 minutes ago, rockpond said:

You are correct.  I just re-read the newsroom release and it states that an ecclesiastical leader spoke with Bishop about the accusations in 2010.

But Bishop seems to have no recollection of that in the Dec 2017 recording. 

If he had dementia like it’s been reported, that wouldn’t be unusual. 

[Calm]

44 minutes ago, rockpond said:

You are correct.  I just re-read the newsroom release and it states that an ecclesiastical leader spoke with Bishop about the accusations in 2010.

But Bishop seems to have no recollection of that in the Dec 2017 recording. 

Which means either someone in the Church leadership is lying or there is a big issue with Bishop's memory/honesty.  Would you ever forget a church leader asking you if you attempted to rape a woman?

[smac97]

Not sure if this has been mentioned or not, but there's this:

Quote

LDS Church responds to allegations of sexual abuse by former Provo MTC president
Genelle Pugmire | Daily Herald

Allegations of sexual assault by a former president of the Provo Missionary Training Center against a sister missionary have resurfaced after 34 years.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints released a statement Tuesday to clarify the path the allegation has taken over the decades, and the controversial audio leaked Monday.

“These allegations are very serious and deeply disturbing,” the church statement says. “If the allegations of sexual assault are true, it would be a tragic betrayal of our standards and would result in action by the Church to formally discipline any member who was guilty of such behavior, especially someone in a position of trust.”

According to the statement, the matter was first brought to the attention of the church in 2010, approximately 26 years after the alleged assault. The woman, who served briefly as a missionary in 1984, told leaders of the Pleasant Grove Utah West Stake that she had been sexually assaulted by Joseph Bishop, then- president of the Provo Missionary Training Center.

“They listened carefully to the claims being made and then this was immediately reported to the Pleasant Grove Police Department, and the police interviewed her at that time,” the church statement said. “The church does not know what she said in that interview, but the church received no further communication from the police concerning the matter.”

Captain Michael Robertson of the Pleasant Grove Police Department acknowledged on Tuesday the department was aware of the allegations, but said Pleasant Grove's involvement was not about the allegations. 

"The woman contacted the church leaders. She made threats she could possibly hurt someone," Robertson said. "We went out to her home to visit her and make sure she was OK. We never investigated the alleged abuse."

According to mormonnewsroom.org, the church referred these allegations to Bishop's local ecclesiastical leaders. They met with him and he denied the allegations.

“Unable to verify the allegations, they did not impose any formal Church discipline on Mr. Bishop at that time,” the statement continues.

Two years ago, the same woman contacted a stake president in Pueblo, Colorado. In January of this year, the church was contacted by a lawyer representing her.

“He provided a copy of a recording that she had made of a conversation between her and 85-year-old Joseph Bishop in December 2017,” the church statement says. “Since that time, the Church has engaged in an investigation of this individual’s allegations.”

The statement continues, “In the course of that investigation, both she and Mr. Bishop have been interviewed by outside legal counsel. Not surprisingly, the stories, timelines and recollections of those involved are dramatically different.”

This woman reaffirmed her allegations, while Bishop again denied them. The woman reported she had met with Elder Carlos E. Asay, who passed away in 1999.

“We have no record of an interview between Elder Carlos E. Asay and this individual,” the church statement said.

“The Church, as a religious organization, does not have the investigative tools available to law enforcement agencies. Nor can the Church substitute for the courts in adjudicating legal claims,” the statement continues. “The Church has great faith in the judicial system to determine the truth of these claims. Nevertheless, the Church takes seriously its responsibility to hold its members accountable for their conduct with respect of the laws of God and man.”

According to the mormonnewsroom.org statement, the church is continuing its investigation of this individual's claims and will act consistent with policy of zero tolerance for abuse.

The article goes on, but mostly it discusses the contents of the recording.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

You're wrong about my position, I'm not advocating for laws to outlaw polygyny, I just commented that I believe the Nauvoo practice of it was particularly immoral, and I find it problematic generally, but I've never said I support making it illegal, or would restrict freedom to practice it among consenting adults.  Just because something is legal doesn't mean I shouldn't speak out about the problems of those behaviors, how hurtful the practice is for families and disproportionately harmful to women, and detrimental to society in general.  

You seem dedicated to straw-man arguments that misrepresent my position intentionally.  I never made a claim that the same things were done by other group exactly.  I never claimed moral equivalency, I said the exact opposite, and I'm beginning to think we have a problem with reading comprehension at this juncture of the discussion.  

Sorry to have misrepresented your position.  However, it does appear (based on your comments below) that you are inconsistent on the practice of SSM and polygyny, since you harshly judge one as harmful and the other as not.  At least you favor free choice.  Meantime, the biblical condemnation of homosexual practice is clear.

2 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Unfortunately this claim isn't supported by a rigorous review of history.  I recommend the following book for an excellent in-depth discussion of the topic.  

https://www.amazon.com/Standing-Apart-Historical-Consciousness-Apostasy/dp/0199348146/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1521585131&sr=8-1&keywords=standing+apart 

Thank you for the recommendation.  I have many times pointed out on this board that Nibley's "When the Lights Went Out" is the best assessment of the Patristic literature,  and he has never been refuted.

2 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Stop closed door interviews with minors.

Stop the discussions of sex with everyone

Start background checking leaders who work with minors

Start getting bishops better training

Start outsourcing to trained professionals more

Put controls in place to protect individuals

Change the culture where people go to Bishops for everything including the kitchen sink and start to emphasize very narrow reasons to go to a bishop for advice on spiritual matters

Make leaders read more of the complicated history of the church before being called to important positions

Complete financial transparency

Call diverse leaders into positions, including women

Get theologians and philosophers into the leadership ranks

Apologize for past harms and acknowledge current problems on race and sex and LGBT issues

Revoke the 2015 LGBT policy as a gross heresy and apologize for the error

Get humble and quit hiding behind a curtain about special insight from deity

I could go on, but we essentially need a reformation in the Mormon religion.

I doubt that there will be a major change in Mormonism any time soon.  However, there have been some major changes in its history, and that could happen in the future.  Some of your recommendations are unrealistic (theologians and philosophers, making historians of important leaders, revocation of 2015 LGBTQ policy, etc.), are tendentious and non-existent (race, unless you are only calling for an apology for past wrongs), some are already taking place (background checks on scout leaders, and restrictions on their activities), and denial of revelation or inspiration from God is absurd -- Elder Richard Scott is turning over in his grave.

Complete financial transparency would be good; increasing the already strong practice of sending psychologically disturbed members to professional therapists could be helpful; training for leaders (bishops and stake presidents) could be increased; when the Church is successfully sued it is usually for failure to do due diligence in sexual matters, so that should be dealt with more seriously, but it seems unlikely that discussing sex in the bishop's office can really be avoided, because that is a major problem for so many -- having three people in the room would defeat the purpose of the interview., unless the two with the bishop are a man and woman who have been going too far.

The idea that the LDS Church could apply some quick fixes to the lack of professional training is just not gonna fly.  Can't be done.  The whole LDS lay leader ideal would be defeated by adopting the normative seminary training of the Catholics and Protestants.  Yet that is the only way the kind of training you recommend could realistically be applied.  BYU/CES are simply not going to create the sort of coursework and degrees which you and I might favor.  Short courses and training are just not adequate.

You can find exactly what you recommend in the Community of Christ (RLDS), but only by jettisoning the Restoration completely.  On the other hand, perhaps that is what you are suggesting.

[Storm Rider]

1 hour ago, omni said:

24/7 discernment may be a bit too much of an ask, but how about once during the three years Bishop served as the MTC President?

How about once every 18 years?  Richard Lyman committed adultry from 1925-1943 while serving as an apostle.  If the entire Q15 can go 18 years without discerning one of its own is in an adulterous relationship, then what value is the power of discernment?

Omni, I cannot speak for others.  Here is what I know from personal experience. The power of discernment is real and can be very powerful in identifying problems and in assisting in the healing process of others.  Frankly, I don't have a clue about these others situations and why they did or did not occur.  Were feelings and spiritual guidance ignored or did spiritual guidance just never occur?  I cannot answer the question.  Does it cause me to doubt the power of discernment?  Not for a moment.  Does it make me doubt the ability of general authorities to exercise spiritual gifts?  I think there will be times when are filled with the Spirit, but I never have an expectation that they will "have" it.

I remember the first time I ever heard Elder Gordon B. Hinckley speak. There was an announcement that an apostle was coming to talk to the saints in the south - it was GBH.  Everyone was excited about this rare opportunity.  I went, I listened, and I came away with nothing.  I thought he was the most boring speaker I had ever heard.  Generally, instead of pointing at the "other" as the problem I most often look at myself and conclude that I was just not in the right frame of mind to be open to the Spirit.  Conversely, I was invited to attend a marriage sealing in the SLC temple.  It was the sealing room that is at the top of the small set of stairs at the back right corner of the Celestial Room.  Elder Mark E. Petersen was acting as the sealer and there were six people in the room.  He was filled with the Spirit and I felt as if he saw me, my inner being - who I was and who I would be.  It was a very memorable experience and testimony of individuals who serve as apostles in the Church.

It is very easy to find the errors.  I encourage you to look for when things were done right.  Should you choose to do so, I think you will find overwhelming evidence of the spiritual gifts of the Brethren.  

[Calm]

"We never investigated the alleged abuse"

I assume and hope that is because the statue of limitations ran out or it wasn't in their jurisdiction...Provo Police would have responsibility over the MTC, right?  Still, if it was only a jurisdiction thing, it would have been passed onto Provo surely?

The information posted by Juliann from 1980 is a big hit to Bishop's credibility as it alleges a reputation of lying and covering it up.

[Duncan]

10 minutes ago, Calm said:

"We never investigated the alleged abuse"

I assume and hope that is because the statue of limitations ran out or it wasn't in their jurisdiction...Provo Police would have responsibility over the MTC, right?  Still, if it was only a jurisdiction thing, it would have been passed onto Provo surely?

The information posted by Juliann from 1980 is a big hit to Bishop's credibility as it alleges a reputation of lying and covering it up.

I wonder if investigators know about this?

[bsjkki]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

"We never investigated the alleged abuse"

I assume and hope that is because the statue of limitations ran out or it wasn't in their jurisdiction...Provo Police would have responsibility over the MTC, right?  Still, if it was only a jurisdiction thing, it would have been passed onto Provo surely?

The information posted by Juliann from 1980 is a big hit to Bishop's credibility as it alleges a reputation of lying and covering it up.

Based on this information, don't you think there are more people that will come out with stories about this guy? He sounds like a terrible person. I wonder how many people stayed silent, knowing this guy was bad news. I wonder how many people stayed silent in order to not 'rock the boat,' when he was sustained to callings. It is really difficult to go in and tell a Bishop or stake president that someone should not have a calling based on information you know that they are unaware of. You wonder, if they would even believe you. What happens if they don't?

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I wonder if investigators know about this?

They do now no doubt.

[Calm]

10 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Based on this information, don't you think there are more people that will come out with stories about this guy? He sounds like a terrible person.

Given this was recorded in 1980 when he would have been well aware of it (or else he was an idiot for not keeping track of what a person who was suing him was saying about him) and he could have sued her for defamation, this is very problematic for him.  That Taylor was hired by BYU after she made the accusations helps her credibility, but leaves me mystified as to how he got the calling for MTC.  After a while the lawsuit would fade since it was settled, so if he was a good conman in a church position where it appears from Taylor's remarks he would feel quite at home...well, maybe he learned from Weber not to be so open about his personal hangups and dislikes and so the later stuff I can imagine happening if he controlled his less appealing qualities.

But I find it likely if he was into investigating people and blacklists, we will hear of more such problems.  That type of personality in a position of power...not good.

BTW, in my opinion if Taylor's portrayal of him is accurate, he sounds like the kind of person who plays up to those who have greater power than him and sabotages those he sees in competition.  He may have felt safe in church callings, so that side of him didn't show up after he moved into church callings.

Edited March 21, 2018 by Calm

[smac97]

40 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Not sure if this has been mentioned or not, but there's this:

The article goes on, but mostly it discusses the contents of the recording.

Some thoughts...

1. It looks like the Church is stating it was not aware of the allegation until 2010.

2. The woman states that she reported the misconduct to Elder (Carlos) Asay (p. 26 of the transcript), who died in 1999.  Elsewhere she states that she "reported this {misconduct} to Salt Lake" when she "came home from {her} mission {and} before {she} got married" (p. 29).  The Church's statement is that she served "briefly," and she states that she was in the MTC in 1984 (p. 24), and that she has been single for 25 years (p. 46), and implies that she was married for 4 years (p. 58).  So single for 25 years as of 2017 would place the end of her marriage at about 1992.  And if she was married for four years, that would put her marriage about 1988.  So it sounds like sometime between 1985 and 1988 is when she claims to have reported the misconduct to the Church.

3. The woman states that she after reporting the misconduct to Salt Lake, she was referred to Elder Carols Asay, who she says interviewed her and said that he would talk to Bro. Bishop. (p. 29)  Bro. Bishop states that Elder Asay never spoke with him about the woman's allegations (p. 40).  The woman expresses anger at this (p. 47).

4. Bro. Bishop states (implies, really) that Elder Asay prevented Bro. Bishop from being considered to be a general authority (p. 66).  I am not sure what this means, or to what extent, if any, it related to the accusations by this woman.  Bro. Bishop states that he "had a thing going with Elder Asay," and that "{t}here were sisters" at the MTC who needed professional counseling because of suicidal ideations, and that he (Bro. Bishop) asked Elder Asay for funding for this several times (pp. 35-36).

5. The Church states that it has no record of an interview between Elder Asay and the woman.  Giving the Church the benefit of the doubt, we are left to either believe the woman (which would implicate Elder Asay for failing to address these accusations) or not.

6. The woman's local leaders in Pleasant Grove took immediate action in reporting this matter to the police.  It appears that the Pleasant Grove police did not investigate the allegations of abuse, perhaps because the abuse did not happen in their jurisdiction, or because the statute of limitations had lapsed, or because the woman had apparenty threatened (again?) to injure or kill Bro. Bishop, and these threats overshadowed the allegations of misconduct from 26 years prior, or for other reasons, or for some combination of these.

7. The Church's statement about it being a religious organization and not a law enforcement agency is important.

Thanks,

-Smac

[rockpond]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Okay....not sure what that has to,do with my comment though.

Wasn't a refutation of your comment.  Just explaining that her "former member" status is, by her account, directly connected to the allegations being discussed.

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, juliann said:

A 1980 account from an employee, taken during an oral studies project, about her employment at Weber State.

Another interesting (to me) quote:

Quote

The fact that this man was a Mormon, and was doing what was perceived as unethical and destructive and hurtful kinds of things, was just so inconsistent with what was being put out, as what a good Mormon would do. So it made both Mormons and non-Mormons very angry.

 

[rockpond]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

If he had dementia like it’s been reported, that wouldn’t be unusual. 

Has that been reported by someone who is aware of a diagnosis?  I thought it was just a theory suggested by someone on this thread (not sure where it originated).