MormonLeaks: Former Mormon Mission President Admitting to Inappropriate Interactions with Women

[Calm]

So I am looking at the beginning of the transcript (the reveal isn't until page 25 I read) to see if there is any info that hints where they are, I may just be reading into it...but she comes across as talking to a child to me....telling him "it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter" when apparently he doesn't know someone she refers to as if he looked troubled, asking "do you know what the point of this is?", and then "so Joseph L Bishop, what's your middle name?"  And that is just the first page.

At best she is a horrible interviewer...which since she isn't really one, I suppose shouldn't be surprising.

Just had to express my editor's reaction...totally irrelevant probably.

-----

I am going to have to listen to it (ugh) because this reads just bizarre unless you assume there is dementia.  I don't understand how anyone can see this as an intelligent conversation:

Bishop:  "My father was Joseph Layton. I'm Joseph Layton Jr."

Woman:  "Nice. How'd you get Bishop."

Bishop: "Bishop."

And then he tells her to check the name of his university...he doesn't trust his memory it would seem.

Edited March 21, 2018 by Calm

[rockpond]

3 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Are such experiences so damaging to an individual that they forfeit entirely their objectivity for the rest of their lives?  Does it remove the ability to see humanity fully - acknowledging the good and the bad?  You seem to imply that an individual that is sexually abused loses all human ability to function in any objective manner.

In no way does anything I have said belittle or demean the tragic nature and serious harm sexual abuse does to an individual.  However, as someone that has specific knowledge of what sexual abuse does to an individual I know that with time and healing humans are more than capable of seeing the world more objectively than what you are trying to portray.  

If you are attempting to enfer that my statement above - which was made to a commenter on this Board and in that context; it certainly was not addressing the woman who reports that she was abused - then you are wrong.  However, I do not care how badly we are harmed in this life, the promise of the Savior is that he can heal all our pains.  Are you saying this is not possible for some individuals; that they are beyond healing by the Son of God?  

I wasn't making any inference about your comment.  I was asking a follow up question of you.  Is the answer above a yes or a no?

[rockpond]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

So I am looking at the beginning of the transcript (the reveal isn't until page 25 I read) to see if there is any info that hints where they are, I may just be reading into it...but she comes across as talking to a child to me....telling him "it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter" when apparently he doesn't know someone she refers to as if he looked troubled, asking "do you know what the point of this is?", and then "so Joseph L Bishop, what's your middle name?"  And that is just the first page.

At best she is a horrible interviewer...which since she isn't really one, I suppose shouldn't be surprising.

Just had to express my editor's reaction...totally irrelevant probably.

Yes, she doesn't do a very good job of acting like a professional writer interviewing someone for a story.  Since I listened to the audio with the benefit of knowing where she was headed, it seemed to me that she was likely nervous (knowing that her real objective was to get a confession) and that was showing in some of the odd things that she did and said.

[Calm]

I get a beep on the audio file and then nothing.  Is there a long gap or does it not work on my iPad?

[why me]

2 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

.

It is very easy to find the errors.  I encourage you to look for when things were done right.  Should you choose to do so, I think you will find overwhelming evidence of the spiritual gifts of the Brethren.  

When dealing with such a case, it is very difficult to use spiritual discernment. I can feel that someone is guilty. The spirit can give me the discernment that one is guilty. But to act on it is very difficult when it comes to such allegations. Such feelings is not admissable in a court of law nor when condemning someone. However, one can say to the person, that the spirit has manifested itself to me, and I feel that you may be guilty. And wait for the reaction. But if one is wrong, then more harm is done. Much better to leave it up to the law and see what happens.

[rockpond]

44 minutes ago, smac97 said:

As I understand it, the requirement for two witnesses pertains only to allegations of adultery.  From Section 6.10.12 of Handbook 1:

Generally, the procedure for the presentation of evidence goes like this (from Section 6.10.4):

The deciding body (the bishopric or stake presidency) then "prayerfully deliberate over what action to take."

I have participated in several dozen disciplinary councils.  Every one of them has been predicatedon the individual's confessed behavior,so there has not been a need to weigh/sift evidence such as is called for above.

Thanks,

-Smac

Apparently this woman, the accuser, was never brought in as a witness. 

[rockpond]

It’s extremely troubling to find out the the church learned of this recording in January and then tried to get a two-party consent law passed in February (that would have prevented the release of this recording). 

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Yes, she doesn't do a very good job of acting like a professional writer interviewing someone for a story.  Since I listened to the audio with the benefit of knowing where she was headed, it seemed to me that she was likely nervous (knowing that her real objective was to get a confession) and that was showing in some of the odd things that she did and said.

The problem is I can see why someone wouldn't interpret it this way, but I am getting hits for dementia in everything I am reading from him.  It is like I have seen the rabbit or the old lady and I can't unsee it.

When he doesn't follow her, he just repeats stuff as in when he repeated his last name after she asked him how he got it; then he goes into a set piece of storytelling with his sister and then his spiritual experiences.  Set pieces (stories that are told over and over again) can get quite elaborate, what is notable is the language is not quite natural...they have thought of something clever to say and stay with it (Mom's favorite is how she is going to be on  Smucker's jar in 20 years after she saw a news report or something on Smucker's putting people over a certain age on their jars).  Then he gushes about how much he appreciates her, how wonderful she is, what a great writer...when he has seen nothing of her writing and she has been asking basic questions.  Mom uses the term "lifesaver" anytime anyone does the least bit for her.  I can't decide whether it is because she thinks it is expected...I pay attention to her, she expresses gratitude or if it is out of fear if she doesn't show gratitude people won't help her.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, rockpond said:

It’s extremely troubling to find out the the church learned of this recording in January and then tried to get a two-party consent law passed in February (that would have prevented the release of this recording). 

Why in the world do you think it would have prevented the release?  The world is not Utah.

Is there any indication where the woman lives?  It was recorded in Arizona, not Utah as well.

And just because one party in the Church knew of it doesn't automatically mean all parties in Church leadership knew of it.  It may have triggered the action, but I think there have been a number of other recording events that were just as likely to have triggered it.

With Mormonleaks and Dehlin out there and plenty of people happy to step up if they refused, they had to know it would end up public.

At best, they might have prevented it being used as evidence in a lawsuit, but not its release. Add-on:  forgot that the bill allowed recording in cases of criminal behaviour, so there is no at best as far as the Church is concerned.  Since it was taped in Arizona, Bishop,can't complain.

Edited March 21, 2018 by Calm

[6EQUJ5]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

At best, they might have prevented it being used as evidence in a lawsuit, but not its release.

Genuinely curious: How do you know this?

[juliann]

11 minutes ago, rockpond said:

It’s extremely troubling to find out the the church learned of this recording in January and then tried to get a two-party consent law passed in February (that would have prevented the release of this recording). 

Then you should have read the proposed bill. It allowed for one party consent if criminal acts were involved. 

[Meerkat]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

I am not so certain.  On many days if you just listen to Mom's tones and rhythms, you won't clue in...it is the contradictions that are the clue and what she skips over dealing with (it is one of the reasons I used to talk to my relatives after every visit to get a reality check because it was so hard to believe she had issues on those days).  However, under stress her voice is more hesitant or goes atypical places (anger, defensiveness, indignation, weak, etc).  I really wish someone professional was available.  Maybe I will ask my friend who is the boss of a senior center...but I think it would depress her too much, so I doubt I will do it.

add-on:  honestly I have thought about recording her to get a better read on where she is by documenting her claims.  I may just have more faith in the written word for finding facts, though tone and body language are a huge part of communication.

My Mother had a good case of dimentia.  We invited the social worker over to test her, and get some outside support so we could clean the bad food out of the fridge.  The social worker said "Please count backward from 100 by 6's." Mom did it nearly as fast going backwards as counting 1-10 going forwards.  Dimentia is something that can come and go.  And passing one test does not necessarily a sane person make.  

One interesting thing about Mom, she couldn't remember yesterday (or even who I was some of the time.)  But she had good recall from decades ago.  Reading the transcript, the lady seemed composed, relatively polite and reasonable to me, under the circumstances.  Bro. Bishop seemed appropriately humbled with a reasonable sense of fear.  He also seemed to recall some of the issues from years past.  I hope the lady was mistaken and that Bro. Bishop had false memories.  Hopefully there is a strong enough paper trail they can figure it out. 

[juliann]

8 minutes ago, Calm said:

Why in the world do you think it would have prevented the release?  The world is not Utah.

Is there any indication where the woman lives?  It was recorded in Arizona, not Utah as well. 

 

Arizona is a one party consent state. The disinformation hysteria ginned up over this bill has been something to see. 

[rockpond]

14 minutes ago, Calm said:

The problem is I can see why someone wouldn't interpret it this way, but I am getting hits for dementia in everything I am reading from him.  It is like I have seen the rabbit or the old lady and I can't unsee it.

When he doesn't follow her, he just repeats stuff as in when he repeated his last name after she asked him how he got it; then he goes into a set piece of storytelling with his sister and then his spiritual experiences.  Set pieces (stories that are told over and over again) can get quite elaborate, what is notable is the language is not quite natural...they have thought of something clever to say and stay with it (Mom's favorite is how she is going to be on  Smucker's jar in 20 years after she saw a news report or something on Smucker's putting people over a certain age on their jars).  Then he gushes about how much he appreciates her, how wonderful she is, what a great writer...when he has seen nothing of her writing and she has been asking basic questions.  Mom uses the term "lifesaver" anytime anyone does the least bit for her.  I can't decide whether it is because she thinks it is expected...I pay attention to her, she expresses gratitude or if it is out of fear if she doesn't show gratitude people won't help her.

I feel like the weird dialogue around his name is on her.  What does she mean:  how did he get his last name?  Isn’t that obvious?  I wouldn’t know how to answer that if someone asked me.  So he repeats his last name as if perhaps he misunderstood her.

Much of what you describe sounds like normal elderly stuff to me.  But then I spend time in an assisted living home each week so I have my own biased experience. 

I guess the important question is:  can dementia explain his confessions of past sexual misconduct and his claim of being a sex addict throughout his life?

[rockpond]

16 minutes ago, Calm said:

Why in the world do you think it would have prevented the release?  The world is not Utah.

Is there any indication where the woman lives?  It was recorded in Arizona, not Utah as well.

And just because one party in the Church knew of it doesn't automatically mean all parties in Church leadership knew of it.  It may have triggered the action, but I think there have been a number of other recording events that were just as likely to have triggered it.

With Mormonleaks and Dehlin out there and plenty of people happy to step up if they refused, they had to know it would end up public.

At best, they might have prevented it being used as evidence in a lawsuit, but not its release.

The confession she was seeking was for alleged actions that occurred in Utah.  Beyond that, I’m not an attorney, I’m just saying that it’s troubling to me.  The Church was seemingly  supporting legislation that protects the predators, not the victims. 

[juliann]

1 minute ago, rockpond said:

I feel like the weird dialogue around his name is on her.  What does she mean:  how did he get his last name?  Isn’t that obvious?  I wouldn’t know how to answer that if someone asked me.  So he repeats his last name as if perhaps he misunderstood her.

Much of what you describe sounds like normal elderly stuff to me.  But then I spend time in an assisted living home each week so I have my own biased experience. 

I guess the important question is:  can dementia explain his confessions of past sexual misconduct and his claim of being a sex addict throughout his life?

My father-in-law was descending into Alzheimers to the point he wasn't keeping track of a lawsuit and he was getting penalized. So he gave me power of attorney to be his stand-in. He could explain the problem and carry on conversations but he couldn't do complicated stuff. So who knows.

All of this kind of stuff will come out so there isn't much point in debating it.  

[juliann]

1 minute ago, rockpond said:

The confession she was seeking was for alleged actions that occurred in Utah.  Beyond that, I’m not an attorney, I’m just saying that it’s troubling to me.  The Church was seemingly  supporting legislation that protects the predators, not the victims. 

Read. The. Bill.

[rockpond]

13 minutes ago, juliann said:

Then you should have read the proposed bill. It allowed for one party consent if criminal acts were involved. 

Were criminal acts involved?  Or is it just something that makes the church and this man look bad?

But if criminal acts were involved and they occurred in Utah and the trial takes place in Utah, would the recording have become inadmissible in a Utah court under the proposed legislation?

So far the Church’s response to this has shown little regard for the victims.  It’s time to turn that around. 

[bsjkki]

Reading the link from Juliann was really disturbing. This man harassed (not sexually) an Assistant Dean at Weber State. He had a black list of people he would go after and even reportedly wiretapped her phone after she filed a suit against him. He does not sound like a person you would want to trust as a Mission President. The Deseret News has an article up now. https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900013479/woman-levels-accusations-against-former-mtc-president.html

Edited March 21, 2018 by bsjkki

[Thinking]

36 minutes ago, rockpond said:

It’s extremely troubling to find out the the church learned of this recording in January and then tried to get a two-party consent law passed in February (that would have prevented the release of this recording). 

Could a new two-party consent law prevent the release of a recording that was created before the law was passed?

[provoman]

7 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Were criminal acts involved?  Or is it just something that makes the church and this man look bad?

But if criminal acts were involved and they occurred in Utah and the trial takes place in Utah, would the recording have become inadmissible in a Utah court under the proposed legislation?

So far the Church’s response to this has shown little regard for the victims.  It’s time to turn that around. 

Had that bill passed, the admissability of any recording would likely have become a trial unto itself, as the exception to two party consent would have “reasonably belief”, which is a question for a hury or judge.

[rockpond]

6 minutes ago, Thinking said:

Could a new two-party consent law prevent the release of a recording that was created before the law was passed?

I don’t know. 

Can we think of a reason for the church supporting a two-party consent law?

[Duncan]

9 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Reading the link from Juliann was really disturbing. This man harassed (not sexually) an Assistant Dean at Weber State. He had a black list of people he would go after and even reportedly wiretapped her phone after she filed a suit against him. He does not sound like a person you would want to trust as a Mission President. The Deseret News has an article up now. https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900013479/woman-levels-accusations-against-former-mtc-president.html

and that adds to the big mess, as he hopefully didn't have dementia back then, when all that was going on

[bsjkki]

4 minutes ago, Duncan said:

and that adds to the big mess, as he hopefully didn't have dementia back then, when all that was going on

I also found it disturbing that Jan Tyler (the Weber state dean), said BYU knew of the legal action she had taken against Bishop. She refused to come work for them until her legal action was settled. 

[juliann]

So in the DN article, 

Quote

Bishop adamantly denied the allegations through his son, Gregory Bishop, who questioned the woman's credibility, saying she has accused 10 other men of sexual assault, sexual harassment or assault without charges being filed and has sought cash settlements in other cases.

If this is true, it is over regardless of the merits of her claims.   The son is claiming he was medicated after heart surgery, though. I'm finding that claim a little convenient and I can't remember if he had previously said his dad has memory problems. 

Edited March 21, 2018 by juliann