The double command - don't eat

[theplains]

Moses 3:17 says, "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, nevertheless, thou
mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee; but, remember that I forbid it, for in the day thou eatest
thereof thou shalt surely die."

Why did God issue what seems like a double-command - not to eat from that tree and then remind Adam
again that He had forbidden him to eat of it?

Does "nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee" apply to all choices to obey or
disobey?  If no, why not?

Thanks,
Jim

[Robert F. Smith]

38 minutes ago, theplains said:

Moses 3:17 says, "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, nevertheless, thou
mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee; but, remember that I forbid it, for in the day thou eatest
thereof thou shalt surely die."

Why did God issue what seems like a double-command - not to eat from that tree and then remind Adam
again that He had forbidden him to eat of it?

Does "nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee" apply to all choices to obey or
disobey?  If no, why not?..............

I should have thought that the "double command" was (1) do not eat, and (2) multiply-reproduce.  Being fully innocent of  their own nakedness, Adam & Eve, clearly could not reproduce unless they understood what their sexuality meant, and they could not understand their own sexuality until they had knowledge.  That is the dilemma on which the story hangs, and it is understood by all those around the campfire, as the story is told, that the only way out is to eat the figurative fruit of the Tree of Knowledge.  It likewise describes the progressive acquisition of knowledge by children, whose self-awareness comes only slowly, beginning with absolute innocence.  Every adult is fully aware of the pattern.

Edited February 9, 2018 by Robert F. Smith

[CV75]

12 hours ago, theplains said:

Moses 3:17 says, "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, nevertheless, thou
mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee; but, remember that I forbid it, for in the day thou eatest
thereof thou shalt surely die."

Why did God issue what seems like a double-command - not to eat from that tree and then remind Adam
again that He had forbidden him to eat of it?

Does "nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee" apply to all choices to obey or
disobey?  If no, why not?

Thanks,
Jim

Commanding the same* thing in two ways is simply for emphasis. Agency applies to all choices.

* These can also be seen as two related commands: one to not eat, the second, to remember the command and the consequences. We cannot choose to keep or break a commandment if we forget, and our choice is meaningless if we forget the consequences. These can also be seen as a commandment (do not eat) and related counsel. (to remember and to understand the consequences).

[mfbukowski]

13 hours ago, theplains said:

Moses 3:17 says, "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, nevertheless, thou
mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee; but, remember that I forbid it, for in the day thou eatest
thereof thou shalt surely die."

Why did God issue what seems like a double-command - not to eat from that tree and then remind Adam
again that He had forbidden him to eat of it?

Does "nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee" apply to all choices to obey or
disobey?  If no, why not?

Thanks,
Jim

Yes we are always free to obey God or not, this is called "agency"

God does not force us to obey- if we disobey we get the consequences.  Is that your question?   It seems you would know that?

[ksfisher]

14 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I should have thought that the "double command" was (1) do not eat, and (2) multiply-reproduce.  Being fully innocent of  their own nakedness, Adam & Eve, clearly could not reproduce unless they understood what their sexuality meant, and they could not understand their own sexuality until they had knowledge.  That is the dilemma on which the story hangs, and it is understood by all those around the campfire, as the story is told, that the only way out is to eat the figurative fruit of the Tree of Knowledge.  It likewise describes the progressive acquisition of knowledge by children, whose self-awareness comes only slowly, beginning with absolute innocence.  Every adult is fully aware of the pattern.

I wonder if it is significant that a woman, and women mature sexually earlier than men, was the first to partake of the fruit.

[rockpond]

I think an important lesson from the Garden of Eden is that God is comfortable with a little ambiguity and a lot of personal agency.

[Jeanne]

I think this is a story.

[theplains]

On 09/02/2018 at 12:42 PM, ksfisher said:

I wonder if it is significant that a woman, and women mature sexually earlier than men, was the first to partake of the fruit.

Why did Eve not realize that she was naked until Adam ate from the forbidden tree?

Jim

[CV75]

On 2/8/2018 at 10:23 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

I should have thought that the "double command" was (1) do not eat, and (2) multiply-reproduce.  Being fully innocent of  their own nakedness, Adam & Eve, clearly could not reproduce unless they understood what their sexuality meant, and they could not understand their own sexuality until they had knowledge.  That is the dilemma on which the story hangs, and it is understood by all those around the campfire, as the story is told, that the only way out is to eat the figurative fruit of the Tree of Knowledge.  It likewise describes the progressive acquisition of knowledge by children, whose self-awareness comes only slowly, beginning with absolute innocence.  Every adult is fully aware of the pattern.

I'm certain Adam and Eve were having sex before the Fall. How else would they know what was good for "food," pleasant to the eyes (and other organs), and something to be desired? I don't think their awareness of their nakedness had anything to do with a budding sexuality, but with their realization that they were now vulnerable to death; their shame had to do with their realization that they disobeyed.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I'm certain Adam and Eve were having sex before the Fall. How else would they know what was good for "food," pleasant to the eyes (and other organs), and something to be desired? I don't think their awareness of their nakedness had anything to do with a budding sexuality, but with their realization that they were now vulnerable to death; their shame had to do with their realization that they disobeyed.

Doesn't make any sense to me at all.  You can't have your cake and eat it too.  On the other hand, the entire Garden story is a ritual in which the actions and words are all set out ahead of time -- as a liturgy -- and no one is surprised at the sequence of events.  Satan is the traditional trickster essential to such stories.  It is a rite of passage through which all of us must go, and that is what Earthlife is all about, till Kingdom come.

[CV75]

15 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Doesn't make any sense to me at all.  You can't have your cake and eat it too.  On the other hand, the entire Garden story is a ritual in which the actions and words are all set out ahead of time -- as a liturgy -- and no one is surprised at the sequence of events.  Satan is the traditional trickster essential to such stories.  It is a rite of passage through which all of us must go, and that is what Earthlife is all about, till Kingdom come.

If it doesn't make sense that sex was part "naked life" in the Garden along with naming, tending, eating and otherwise enjoying that which is good, pleasant and desirable, then it does not make sense that it would be part of "naked life" in the fallen world. The only difference between life in the Garden and life in the fallen world is that the fallen world adds the opposing component of death. Their awareness of death offered them a new, scary perspective and knowledge about everything, including their nakedness. This goes whether we take the story literally, figuratively, or liturgically, each of which has value.

[The Nehor]

Came here expecting divine dieting tips. Am now disappointed.  

[ksfisher]

3 hours ago, theplains said:

Why did Eve not realize that she was naked until Adam ate from the forbidden tree?

Jim

There is realizing something and realizing the significance of it.  An young child can run around naked and not care.  

[Robert F. Smith]

5 hours ago, CV75 said:

If it doesn't make sense that sex was part "naked life" in the Garden along with naming, tending, eating and otherwise enjoying that which is good, pleasant and desirable, then it does not make sense that it would be part of "naked life" in the fallen world. The only difference between life in the Garden and life in the fallen world is that the fallen world adds the opposing component of death. Their awareness of death offered them a new, scary perspective and knowledge about everything, including their nakedness. This goes whether we take the story literally, figuratively, or liturgically, each of which has value.

Still there is the whole problem for your approach of a Tree of Knowledge:  Eve herself carefully lists the opposites for us, just as does Lehi later.  If all of that was already known, then what is the Tree of Knowledge for?  There is no logical step from one stage to the next, because you are saying that they already knew it.  After all, little children have lots of fun and giggles without being at all body conscious.  It is part of innocence symbolized by lack of awareness of nudity.  It is the key part of the story, just as surely as death.

[CV75]

20 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Still there is the whole problem for your approach of a Tree of Knowledge:  Eve herself carefully lists the opposites for us, just as does Lehi later.  If all of that was already known, then what is the Tree of Knowledge for?  There is no logical step from one stage to the next, because you are saying that they already knew it.  After all, little children have lots of fun and giggles without being at all body conscious.  It is part of innocence symbolized by lack of awareness of nudity.  It is the key part of the story, just as surely as death.

My approach has to do with how to symbolize innocence and guilt, naked and clothed, sex and celibacy, and knowledge and ignorance. I see the nakedness as a symbol for both innocence and guilt, depending on the level of knowledge and awareness one has about his actions. In Adam and Eve’s case, they felt no guilt or shame at all until they disobeyed for the sake of pleasure (the taste) and desire (for wisdom).

Sex really has nothing to do with it; marital desire and pleasure, including sex, occur within the covenant so there is no disobedience and no warranted guilt to be had there. That Adam and Eve could not have children as a result of their sexual relationship, I’m suggesting, had to do with a different kind of knowledge than is represented by interpersonal sexual behavior within marriage.

I’m suggesting that by partaking of the forbidden fruit, a physical change came about in how the gametes “biochemically” interacted to become one flesh. The respective knowledge encoded in the genetic material of the egg and sperm were thus released. In this Adam (i.e., Adam’s code) and Eve (i.e., Eve’s code) truly came to knew each other, and to know new life, deeper than when their physical bodies knew each other, by conceiving a new human being. Eve correctly observed that through this kind of knowledge, children would come forth.

Hence I see their guilt was not over having sex, but in disobeying God’s commandment. Their shame over their nakedness wasn’t about sexual modestly but over putting themselves in a position of vulnerability to the elements after being warned of God. They may have even viewed their vulnerability as the wrath of God upon them.

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

My approach has to do with how to symbolize innocence and guilt, naked and clothed, sex and celibacy, and knowledge and ignorance. I see the nakedness as a symbol for both innocence and guilt, depending on the level of knowledge and awareness one has about his actions. In Adam and Eve’s case, they felt no guilt or shame at all until they disobeyed for the sake of pleasure (the taste) and desire (for wisdom).

Sex really has nothing to do with it; marital desire and pleasure, including sex, occur within the covenant so there is no disobedience and no warranted guilt to be had there. That Adam and Eve could not have children as a result of their sexual relationship, I’m suggesting, had to do with a different kind of knowledge than is represented by interpersonal sexual behavior within marriage.

I’m suggesting that by partaking of the forbidden fruit, a physical change came about in how the gametes “biochemically” interacted to become one flesh. The respective knowledge encoded in the genetic material of the egg and sperm were thus released. In this Adam (i.e., Adam’s code) and Eve (i.e., Eve’s code) truly came to knew each other, and to know new life, deeper than when their physical bodies knew each other, by conceiving a new human being. Eve correctly observed that through this kind of knowledge, children would come forth.

Hence I see their guilt was not over having sex, but in disobeying God’s commandment. Their shame over their nakedness wasn’t about sexual modestly but over putting themselves in a position of vulnerability to the elements after being warned of God. They may have even viewed their vulnerability as the wrath of God upon them.

You're overthinking it, CV.  I agree that "the guilt is not over having sex," but of simply becoming aware of their own nudity (just as children eventually do).  The "fruit" is figurative and indicative of normal hormonal changes, not an actual biochemical input from outside.  What that hormonal change might have entailed I cannot say, since the liturgy is not history but metaphor.  Sexual activity is foregone only after the realization of nakedness and all that implies, but that is outside the Garden, after the expulsion.

As Eve herself asks, "Is there no other way?"  She is speaking not of nice tasting fruit and a desire for knowledge, but rather the only way to fulfill the commandment to multiply.  And Satan tells her the truth, because there is in fact no other way to begin the life & death sequence agreed upon in the Divine Council -- eternal progression.  So the Garden liturgy becomes etiology, as they set out on the long eschatological road to glory.

[CV75]

47 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You're overthinking it, CV.  I agree that "the guilt is not over having sex," but of simply becoming aware of their own nudity (just as children eventually do).  The "fruit" is figurative and indicative of normal hormonal changes, not an actual biochemical input from outside.  What that hormonal change might have entailed I cannot say, since the liturgy is not history but metaphor.  Sexual activity is foregone only after the realization of nakedness and all that implies, but that is outside the Garden, after the expulsion.

As Eve herself asks, "Is there no other way?"  She is speaking not of nice tasting fruit and a desire for knowledge, but rather the only way to fulfill the commandment to multiply.  And Satan tells her the truth, because there is in fact no other way to begin the life & death sequence agreed upon in the Divine Council -- eternal progression.  So the Garden liturgy becomes etiology, as they set out on the long eschatological road to glory.

That’s certainly one way of looking at it!

The product of partaking of the tree of knowledge was becoming aware of their nudity as children do is symbolic of an advancing appreciation of our vulnerability (the more we know, the more we realize we don’t know; Moses went through this per Moses 1:10). Only the humble can experience this kind of realization and obtain this kind of knowledge.

Recognizing the liturgy is metaphor, what can be understood today as knowledge in terms of biochemical and genetic code was understood in days of yore in terms of becoming one with your mate and knowing life in general by making and teaching generations of posterity together, before being gathered to your people. The greater knowledge that comes to a couple becoming “one flesh” goes beyond the “beast with two backs” only when children are born and are cared for in the covenant per the principles set forth in the Family Proclamation, which principles Adam lived by and taught his posterity. That is the only way, this mortal stage of the path of eternal progression. Hence the etiology from innocent but physically and spiritually unproductive sex in the garden to chaste (also innocent in its own context) procreation and the attendant advancing physical and spiritual knowledge in the fallen world, and the exaltation that these are designed to lead to.

This is clearly reflected in the history of virginal couples who get married in the temple and end up in the Church News “Married for 80 Years” column. They had at least a few months of paradisiacal sex before the children came along! It is even reflected in converted couples who get their temple marriage and have their children sealed to them -- their eyes have been opened as to what was really going on all along. It may sound like overthinking it, but it's what we actually live ourselves as everyday Adams an Eves. There really is no other way, is there?

Edited February 12, 2018 by CV75

[theplains]

On 10/02/2018 at 4:18 PM, ksfisher said:

There is realizing something and realizing the significance of it.  An young child can run around naked and not care.  

So why did Eve realize her nakedness only after Adam ate from the forbidden tree?

Jim

[Alaris]

Adam received a world as an inheritance but his own progression depended on consecrating his space for our progression. We eat on the 8th day every week. Renewal. Rebirth. Recovenant. It all symbolizes eating as an essential step to eternal progression which progression and ordinances depend on the Son. 

[The Nehor]

9 minutes ago, Alaris said:

Adam received a world as an inheritance but his own progression depended on consecrating his space for our progression. We eat on the 8th day every week. Renewal. Rebirth. Recovenant. It all symbolizes eating as an essential step to eternal progression which progression and ordinances depend on the Son. 

Does the Kolobian calendar have an 8 day week or something?

[Alaris]

13 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Does the Kolobian calendar have an 8 day week or something?

First day of the new week - the Lord's day.

[theplains]

On 15/02/2018 at 11:58 PM, Alaris said:

We eat on the 8th day every week.

Would you post a screen print of your February or March 2018 calendar and circle those days you consider
the 8th day of every week?

Thanks,
Jim

[Alaris]

1 hour ago, theplains said:

Would you post a screen print of your February or March 2018 calendar and circle those days you consider
the 8th day of every week?

Thanks,
Jim

Every Monday Jim. 8 is the number of renewal and is tied to circumcision, baptism, the flood, the creation, and the sacrament when you consider Monday is the first day of the next week - renewal. Rebirth. Resurrection. etc. etc.

[theplains]

On 19/02/2018 at 4:54 PM, Alaris said:

Every Monday Jim. 8 is the number of renewal and is tied to circumcision, baptism, the flood, the creation, and the sacrament when you consider Monday is the first day of the next week - renewal. Rebirth. Resurrection. etc. etc.

Jesus rose from the dead on Sunday.

Jim

[Raymond Ellis]

The sin of Adam and Eve, the original sin, was to choose to worship power instead of the Holy Ghost. This sin is still in operation even today. Many Mormons and Christians try to worship both the Holy Spirit and the spirit of power, and because of this their experience of God's full power in their life is cut off. We are in a daily battle to try and worship only the Holy Spirit. We know the worship of power is a sin from Isaiah 66:17, which denotes four ways people worship power: Idol: a group that worships a man or a thing to bestow power, gold emotion, number 9; Mouse: clever words or precise-small actions that glamorize power, yellow, 8; Swine: unnaturally high intensity or lust, green, 6; Abomination or Might: a black, heavy slow spirit that is the accumulation of facts or actions to make a strong argument or immoveable fortress, 2.

These colours are for the false soul of the work-self. There is a false soul for the work-sex self with the lust colour of Royal Blue; and a false soul of the sex-self with lust colour Maroon. I used to have a true soul in the work-self. people think having a high intensity spirit is having integrity and even teach children with this "integrity" -- Isaiah 66:17: sanctify and purify. And also it says that those who worship power will be consumed [by fire] together.