Interesting in light of . . .

[Jeanne]

1 minute ago, rongo said:

Well, Frito Lay's slogan used to be "No one can eat just one."  

Trust me...this is true!!

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

So true, except for the beer part. Alcohol is a negative in my book.

 

Quoting my remark here, I have no problem with those that drink beer or any alcohol. I just don't want to go there...can't say that this will be a permanant feeling. But I've tried it in the last year and it just doesn't do anything for me. And I've got alcoholism in my family..two brothers.

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

But it's a task of their own making. I hope Rongo's OP is wrong and that the church isn't in the process of creating lists of approved and unapproved drinks/foods. They don't have to create a precise law like the Pharisees did. They could simply take the WoW as stated, as guidance and not by way of commandment. Once they head down the road of making lists they will only get bogged down more. Is green tea on the list? What about products made from green tea? What percentage of green tea is acceptable in a product and how much is too much? What about coffee flavored ice cream? What about energy drinks, decaf coffee, chai, sun tea? Is it only the green leaf tea that is bad or also the white and black? It's all silliness.

This seems good enough to me. It's good advice. Let the people decide for themselves and don't attempt to command in all things.

In the end, the only things that are against the Word of Wisdom are the things listed in the Word of Wisdom.
All else is either good advice or Church policy.  Not a Word of Wisdom issue.
That being said following even the suggestions of our priesthood leaders seems to me to be beneficial, not to mention an eternal principle.  Commanding in all things is wrong, but so is having to be commanded in all things.

Kava is not a Word of Wisdom issue as it doesn't appear in the Word of Wisdom.
The Church can ban it, make a policy against it, and have it be a bar to temple worthiness if they so choose.  It still won't be because of the Word of Wisdom.
But if they suggest or dictate that it is not wise to partake, then the wise servant would follow that instruction.  The rebellious would likely go out and buy a whole bunch.
 

[Josh Khinder]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I am sure the company Espresso Perfecto, purveyors of coffee beans and espresso machines, has no vested interest in promoting coffee as healthy and is fearlessly telling the truth no matter what the data says.

What does the data say ? 

[Maidservant]

I wonder if they will mention Ayahuasca (Peyote, etc).  I have been desiring an experience with that, but of course will not until and unless I understand it to be permissible per the Church.

I do not see the Word of Wisdom as advice for 'health' per se.  It is a principle of knowledge and power and priesthood, as the human body is the temple of God and all power is done with, by, for, in the body.  I am learning that by experience.  I am able to keep the commandments and receive personal power to act and be, the more I eat green leafy vegetables (for example) and limit my sugar and cola intake (for example).  My son and I were discussing this the other day and I went so far as to say that the word of wisdom may very well be the most important commandment/scripture we have.

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Once I realized soda is basically liquid candy I adjusted my intake.

Actually juice is only a little bit better because of sugar content.

[RevTestament]

2 hours ago, Jeanne said:

What to do if you are addicted to potato chips...really!

Eat them with sour cream to make the addiction taste better of course!

[Brother Bear]

2 hours ago, Maidservant said:

I wonder if they will mention Ayahuasca (Peyote, etc).  I have been desiring an experience with that, but of course will not until and unless I understand it to be permissible per the Church.

I do not see the Word of Wisdom as advice for 'health' per se.  It is a principle of knowledge and power and priesthood, as the human body is the temple of God and all power is done with, by, for, in the body.  I am learning that by experience.  I am able to keep the commandments and receive personal power to act and be, the more I eat green leafy vegetables (for example) and limit my sugar and cola intake (for example).  My son and I were discussing this the other day and I went so far as to say that the word of wisdom may very well be the most important commandment/scripture we have.

While I don’t personally see anything wrong with taking ayahuasca, I can’t imagine an intensely psychotropic tea being acceptable, while something as mild as green tea is condemned. 

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Josh Khinder said:

What does the data say ? 

No one knows. If you ever want to start a fight ask what a nutritious diet looks like.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Actually juice is only a little bit better because of sugar content.

I drink water mostly.. I have an IBC cream soda maybe once a week. I do not drink a lot of juice.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

Eat them with sour cream to make the addiction taste better of course!

And get the sour cream and chives flavor to double the decadence.

[Hamba Tuhan]

6 hours ago, rongo said:

Are you familiar with kava? What are your thoughts about its use by LDS?

I have intensive, personal experience with kava use by members. The quickest way to have a man withdraw from Church attendance, from his calling, from his priesthood duties, and most importantly from his family responsibilities is to introduce him to a kava circle.

6 hours ago, smac97 said:

I had heard that recreational use of Kava is discouraged (but not categorically prohibited) in the Pacific Islands.  Is that correct?

Correct. We are not allowed to make kava use a disqualifier for priesthood advancement, callings, or temple recommends, but we are to actively discourage its use by Church members in all by ceremonial contexts (such as a wedding). In my case, I actually beg people to stay away from the stuff.

BYU-Hawaii has made recreational use of kava a violation of their honour code. I support this wholeheartedly. They have found that it is one of the central factors in students failing and/or dropping out. This is as true of life in general as it is of studies. 

We had a full-time missionary from Fiji in our ward a couple of years ago, and adult convert whose family own a kava plantation. After his experience serving here and seeing the effects on our members, he swore he'd never touch the stuff again. I spoke to him a few weeks ago, and he still hasn't. He also refuses to have anything to do with the plantation. His family think he's nuts.

Edited February 1, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[rongo]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Actually juice is only a little bit better because of sugar content.

100% juice doesn't have sucrose (table sugar) or high fructose corn syrup, the sugars in pop. There's a big difference. 

People are upset to hear this, but it seems to me that sugar substitutes also cause or contribute to weight gain (or at least, prohibit weight loss). "Zero calories" should theoretically not contribute, but I know a lot of people who complain about not being able to lose weight, even though they only drink diet soda (but they drink a lot of it, all the time). I don't think they're good for you.

It might be "correlation without causation," e.g., maybe they're picking up calories elsewhere because of the false security of the "zero calories," etc.

[smac97]

10 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I have intensive, personal experience with kava use by members. The quickest way to have a man withdraw from Church attendance, from his calling, from his priesthood duties, and most importantly from his family responsibilities is to introduce him to a kava circle.

Hmm.  My brother spent many years in Samoa, and he expressed similar concerns (not as strongly, though).

Quote

Correct. We are not allowed to make kava use a disqualifier for priesthood advancement, callings, or temple recommends, but we are to actively discourage its use by Church members in all by ceremonial contexts (such as a wedding). In my case, I actually beg people to stay away from the stuff.

"We?"  You live there, then?  

I was born in Laie and lived there until I was five.  I also have a Hawaiian sister, a Tahitian brother and a Samoan sister-in-law.  I have great affection and respect for the islands, and in some ways feel bound to them (haole though I may be).

Quote

BYU-Hawaii has made recreational use of kava a violation of their honour code. I support this wholeheartedly. They have found that it is one of the central factors in students failing and/or dropping out. This is as true of life in general as it is of studies. 

We had a full-time missionary from Fiji in our ward a couple of years ago, and adult convert whose family own a kava plantation. After his experience serving here and seeing the effects on our members, he swore he'd never touch the stuff again. I spoke to him a few weeks ago, and he still hasn't. He also refuses to have anything to do with the plantation. His family think he's nuts.

I have an islander friend who was starting to take Kava recreationally.  He too now abstains for these reasons (he also surmised that recreational consumption was not respectful to his heritage and culture).

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited February 1, 2018 by smac97

[rongo]

7 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I have intensive, personal experience with kava use by members. The quickest way to have a man withdraw from Church attendance, from his calling, from his priesthood duties, and most importantly from his family responsibilities is to introduce him to a kava circle.

Correct. We are not allowed to make kava use a disqualifier for priesthood advancement, callings, or temple recommends, but we are to actively discourage its use by Church members in all by ceremonial contexts (such as a wedding). In my case, I actually beg people to stay away from the stuff.

BYU-Hawaii has made recreational use of kava a violation of their honour code. I support this wholeheartedly. They have found that it is one of the central factors in students failing and/or dropping out. This is as true of life in general as it is of studies. 

We had a full-time missionary from Fiji in our ward a couple of years ago, and adult convert whose family own a kava plantation. After his experience serving here and seeing the effects on our members, he swore he'd never touch the stuff again. I spoke to him a few weeks ago, and he still hasn't. He also refuses to have anything to do with the plantation. His family think he's nuts.

I'm a hardliner. I hope that kava, mate, betel nut, etc. become prohibited WoW items --- even if that means that some members leave the Church or go inactive in anger over it. Or, at least, I would like those who have the keys of inquiring to ask about it, and I accept whatever answer that is. And maybe the answer really is: teach correct principles and let them govern themselves. 

[clarkgoble]

9 minutes ago, rongo said:

100% juice doesn't have sucrose (table sugar) or high fructose corn syrup, the sugars in pop. There's a big difference. 

Main issue is the insulin response and caloric issue. While high fructose may have other issues as yet not determined causally, ultimately both fructose and sucrose get turned into the same sugar internally. In terms of obesity though there's some evidence the insulin response is more significant in telling the body to store fat in a way not necessarily straightforwardly tied to caloric intake. The idea that sucrose is somehow worse than fructose seems dubious at best. Also most foods due to the blowback on high fructose have switched back to sucrose. I will strongly bet this will make little difference in obesity rates in the US.

Don't get me wrong. We all consume way too much sugar and carbohydrates. However fruit juice is ultimately nearly as bad as that pop. You're far, far, far better off eating the whole fruit which gives you all the fiber and flesh which satisfies you more.

13 minutes ago, rongo said:

People are upset to hear this, but it seems to me that sugar substitutes also cause or contribute to weight gain (or at least, prohibit weight loss). "Zero calories" should theoretically not contribute, but I know a lot of people who complain about not being able to lose weight, even though they only drink diet soda (but they drink a lot of it, all the time). I don't think they're good for you.

Depends upon the insulin response. So sucralose has a higher insulin response than glucose. Aspartame doesn't have an insulin response although some think it may be affecting things through some other mechanism. Different sweetners have different responses. The trendy one right now are stevia and monk fruit. Stevia seems to help control blood sugar levels and monk fruit has a low insulin response. However most foods with monk fruit and stevia also use erythritol as a filler (to simulate the volume and texture of sugar). However the erythritol has very mild insulin response. Which is why most health foods are going that route.

There's lots of claims about aspartame - usually about brain damage. My wife shares them with me regularly. I tend to suspect there's something to them but that the effect is ultimately very small and dwarfed by other things. (Much like the chemical in coffee that's bad) However in general drinking pop is a bad thing. It makes you bloated. The CO2 screws with your ability to exercise well. There may be effects on your gut flora as well. So I'm trying to quit my diet Coke habit. Although new baby and sleep deprivation makes it hard.

26 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I have intensive, personal experience with kava use by members. The quickest way to have a man withdraw from Church attendance, from his calling, from his priesthood duties, and most importantly from his family responsibilities is to introduce him to a kava circle.

Is this a social thing? Because I tried Kava - it used to be for sale widely in Provo and many used it when Postum was taken off shelves for a while. I confess it didn't do much for me but I didn't notice any cognitive effects.

[RevTestament]

40 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

And get the sour cream and chives flavor to double the decadence.

I already had my Lay's Sour Cream and Onion chips this morning, and to double the decadence, I dipped them in sour cream. However, I think all this decadence is going to my waist line  

[Calm]

35 minutes ago, rongo said:

100% juice doesn't have sucrose (table sugar) or high fructose corn syrup, the sugars in pop. There's a big difference. 

People are upset to hear this, but it seems to me that sugar substitutes also cause or contribute to weight gain (or at least, prohibit weight loss). "Zero calories" should theoretically not contribute, but I know a lot of people who complain about not being able to lose weight, even though they only drink diet soda (but they drink a lot of it, all the time). I don't think they're good for you.

It might be "correlation without causation," e.g., maybe they're picking up calories elsewhere because of the false security of the "zero calories," etc.

There was a study awhile back so I don't know if it is still up-to-date that indicated people gained weight as much or more on low/no calorie sodas as sugared ones.  The theory was the sweetness sets the body to expecting the sugar (releases insulin which drops blood sugar or something else) and not receiving it, drives up the craving so people eat more calories in other forms.

[Brother Bear]

31 minutes ago, rongo said:

I'm a hardliner. I hope that kava, mate, betel nut, etc. become prohibited WoW items --- even if that means that some members leave the Church or go inactive in anger over it. 

Why?  

[Jeanne]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

There was a study awhile back so I don't know if it is still up-to-date that indicated people gained weight as much or more on low/no calorie sodas as sugared ones.  The theory was the sweetness sets the body to expecting the sugar (releases insulin which drops blood sugar or something else) and not receiving it, drives up the craving so people eat more calories in other forms.

I thought I was doing myself a big favor when I found I loved the sugarless oatmeal cookies...then one day I actually looked at the packaging and realized with less sugar...it was way more calories than my homemade would be...surprised.

[rongo]

6 minutes ago, Brother Bear said:

Why?  

Because they seem to me to be harmful substances that enslave with addiction and drive the Spirit away --- including making it harder to feel the Spirit because of narcotic numbing. In general, "teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves" should carry the day, but it's reached such epidemic levels in certain segments of our people, that "lesser law" training wheels may be necessary. 

[RevTestament]

21 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

Main issue is the insulin response and caloric issue. While high fructose may have other issues as yet not determined causally, ultimately both fructose and sucrose get turned into the same sugar internally. In terms of obesity though there's some evidence the insulin response is more significant in telling the body to store fat in a way not necessarily straightforwardly tied to caloric intake. The idea that sucrose is somehow worse than fructose seems dubious at best. Also most foods due to the blowback on high fructose have switched back to sucrose. I will strongly bet this will make little difference in obesity rates in the US.

Sucrose table sugar is glucose and fructose. Fructose is considerably sweeter, so it doesn't take as much to get the sweet taste, but if you consume the same amount, the fructose will generally cause a higher insulin response. For a normally exercising person, the liver will store glucose by combining it with potassium to make glycogen, which is sent throughout the body for muscle fuel. Glycogen does not spike one's insulin. Our metabolism is largely glucose based. Lacking glucose ketones are used by the body. Super long distance runners will generally be well aware of this. I used to think of fructose as a healthy sugar, but I was very wrong. It is much more likely to get stored as fat than glucose.

Quote

Don't get me wrong. We all consume way too much sugar and carbohydrates. However fruit juice is ultimately nearly as bad as that pop. You're far, far, far better off eating the whole fruit which gives you all the fiber and flesh which satisfies you more.

Very true. The fructose in juice goes quickly into the bloodstream whereas when it is eaten in fruit, its absorption doesn't cause quite the spike.

Quote

Depends upon the insulin response. So sucralose has a higher insulin response than glucose. Aspartame doesn't have an insulin response although some think it may be affecting things through some other mechanism. Different sweetners have different responses. The trendy one right now are stevia and monk fruit. Stevia seems to help control blood sugar levels and monk fruit has a low insulin response. However most foods with monk fruit and stevia also use erythritol as a filler (to simulate the volume and texture of sugar). However the erythritol has very mild insulin response. Which is why most health foods are going that route.

However in general drinking pop is a bad thing. It makes you bloated. The CO2 screws with your ability to exercise well. There may be effects on your gut flora as well. So I'm trying to quit my diet Coke habit. Although new baby and sleep deprivation makes it hard.

Soda pop bad. Water good. I've never had a soda pop habit to break, fortunately. Congratulations on your decision. I have strong suspicions about aspartame, but most of the info out there is anecdotal. Still - I barely ever consume any. I remember when I first heard about stevia - I got a little stevia plant and grew it. It is incredibly sweet, but I don't think they have ever gotten a distillate which doesn't have a noticeable aftertaste. Thanks for the info on erythitol. Do you have an opinion on it vs Xylitol? I'm waiting for some foot to drop on these sugar alcohols. Despite their expense, I currently regard them as the best sugar substitutes available.

 

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

"We?"  You live there, then? 

In the Islands? No. But where I do live has a small but -- in the Church, at least -- significant Pacific Islander community comprised of migrants and their children.

Our instructions on how to handle kava use came to us in a letter from our area president. Our bishop has also intimated that we may be receiving a bit more clarity at some point.

My understanding from our Islander members who are stalwart is that the kind of recreational kava consumption that has grown up here would never be tolerated in the Islands, but I don't know that to be the case. It may in fact be a reflexive defensiveness. I know that in Vanuatu in particular, kava use has become rampant, and academic studies indicate that, as a consequence, many households are without a husband/father for up to half the week. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

I'm a hardliner. I hope that kava, mate, betel nut, etc. become prohibited WoW items ...

I'm not sure I'm that 'hard-line', but I would appreciate anything that could help us spare some of our families better. As it is, when we've taught the current 'correct principles' directly from the area president's letter, the response has been, literally, 'Sweet! So there's nothing wrong with kava in the Church then! Let's go have a kava sesh, boys!'

Interestingly, I never knew a single member in Indonesia who would be caught dead chewing betel. 

Our ward, however, has a small but significant South American component as well (Chile and Uruguay), and they all revel in their mate consumption, even proudly displaying their mate cups in their homes. I don't get it, but it has led me to ask myself, many times, 'What blindness am I currently experiencing as a consequence of the traditions of my fathers?'

[smac97]

7 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

My understanding from our Islander members who are stalwart is that the kind of recreational kava consumption that has grown up here would never be tolerated in the Islands, but I don't know that to be the case.

My friend and his wife said the same thing (that recreational consumption of Kava is a big cultural no-no).  It would be like Mormons using sacramental trays to hold chips and dip at a tailgate party.

7 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

It may in fact be a reflexive defensiveness. I know that in Vanuatu in particular, kava use has become rampant, and academic studies indicate that, as a consequence, many households are without a husband/father for up to half the week. 

Hmm.  My sister served her mission in Vanuatu.  In fact, she and her husband (who is a pediatrician) are planning to move there for a while.  I'll ask them if they've heard about this.

Thanks,

-Smac