Popular Post Scott Lloyd Posted November 20, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted November 20, 2017 (edited) Great "Face to Face" broadcast last night featuring Elder Oaks and Elder Ballard, two of my favorite people. Sixteen questions, selected from some 4,000 sent in by young single adults, were answered by the two apostles. Here's a snippet from my news report about the event, specifically summarizing response to a question dealing with doubts: Quote What advice/guidance would you give for answering tough questions about Church history when we are asked about them by someone who is struggling with their faith? “I think the first thing is to distinguish between questions and doubts,” Elder Oaks said. “Some people merge those as if they were the same.” Questions are a way to increase knowledge and understanding and are to be encouraged, while doubt, according to a dictionary definition, is accompanied by distrust, a rejection of something, he explained. “That’s the kind of thing that the scriptures have condemned” as pertaining to gospel truths, he added. Elder Ballard spoke of criticisms to the effect that the Church has hidden the fact that there is more than one rendition of Joseph Smith’s First Vision. “The facts are we don’t study; we don’t go back and search what has been said on the subject. For example, Dr. James B. Allen of BYU in 1970 produced an article in the Church magazines explaining all about the different versions of the First Vision.” He added, “We would have to say, as two apostles who have covered the world and know the history of the Church and know the integrity of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve from the beginning, there has been no attempt on the part of the Church leaders to try to hide anything from anybody.” Thanks to the Joseph Smith Papers project, “we’re learning more about the Prophet Joseph; it’s wonderful we are,” Elder Ballard said. “Just trust us, wherever you are in the world, and you share this message with anyone else who raises the question about the Church not being transparent. We’re as transparent as we know how to be in telling the truth. We have to do that; that’s the Lord’s way.” I thought it was interesting how Elder Oaks differentiates between questions and doubts, not the first time I have seen that important distinction drawn. Also Elder Ballard does not cop to hiding the truth. You can see a replay of the entire event. Follow the link at lds.org. Edited to add: Forgot to link to my story. Here it is. Edited November 21, 2017 by Scott Lloyd 6 Link to comment
Popular Post Duncan Posted November 20, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted November 20, 2017 (edited) I wonder how Elder Ballard would interpret Elder Snow's words? "I think in the past there was a tendency to keep a lot of the records closed or at least not give access to information. But the world has changed in the last generation—with the access to information on the Internet, we can’t continue that pattern; I think we need to continue to be more open." https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/volume-14-number-3-2013/start-faith-conversation-elder-steven-e-snow I was more surprised they had a convert of 2 months being one of the interviewers! that's a dropkick into the deep end! I wonder how she got picked? Edited November 20, 2017 by Duncan 7 Link to comment
CV75 Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 1 hour ago, Duncan said: I wonder how Elder Ballard would interpret Elder Snow's words? "I think in the past there was a tendency to keep a lot of the records closed or at least not give access to information. But the world has changed in the last generation—with the access to information on the Internet, we can’t continue that pattern; I think we need to continue to be more open." https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/volume-14-number-3-2013/start-faith-conversation-elder-steven-e-snow I was more surprised they had a convert of 2 months being one of the interviewers! that's a dropkick into the deep end! I wonder how she got picked? I will hazard a guess that Elder Snow is not speaking specifically of the First Vision accounts. Also, Elder Ballard is speaking in the present tense 4 years after Elder Snow's comment. Also, not being open is not necessarily the same as hiding. 2 Link to comment
JLHPROF Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: “The facts are we don’t study; we don’t go back and search what has been said on the subject. For example, Dr. James B. Allen of BYU in 1970 produced an article in the Church magazines explaining all about the different versions of the First Vision.” He added, “We would have to say, as two apostles who have covered the world and know the history of the Church and know the integrity of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve from the beginning, there has been no attempt on the part of the Church leaders to try to hide anything from anybody.” I think the issue here is controlling the narrative, not hiding the facts. If you have to go back to 1970 to find a comparison of the First Vision accounts in a Church magazine that's a problem. (But that alone isn't a smoking gun). And I'm betting there have even been a few other accounts in Church publications in the last 40 years. But how do they measure up against the repeated and reprinted official PoGP version? Did any of the information readily available to the saints in 1970 make it into any of the curriculum that covers the First Vision? Is that hiding information? No, it was available. Is that tightly controlling what the average member knows about the First Vision, and therefore the narrative around it? You bet. But he's right. The average member doesn't study. They don't go back. I don't understand that myself, but clearly the Church has no problem with members sticking to the Sunday School version of history. Edited November 21, 2017 by JLHPROF 1 Link to comment
CV75 Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 (edited) 52 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: I think the issue here is controlling the narrative, not hiding the facts. If you have to go back to 1970 to find a comparison of the First Vision accounts in a Church magazine that's a problem. (But that alone isn't a smoking gun). And I'm betting there have even been a few other accounts in Church publications in the last 40 years. But how do they measure up against the repeated and reprinted official PoGP version? Did any of the information readily available to the saints in 1970 make it into any of the curriculum that covers the First Vision? Is that hiding information? No, it was available. Is that tightly controlling what the average member knows about the First Vision, and therefore the narrative around it? You bet. But he's right. The average member doesn't study. They don't go back. I don't understand that myself, but clearly the Church has no problem with members sticking to the Sunday School version of history. I don't see that as tightly controlling the narrative and what the members know (I find the term "average member" dehumanizing and feel there is no such thing anyway) . I see the canonical version of the First Vision as offering the clearest common starting point (the same page), recognizing our agency to branch out from there at our own pace and interest. I don't think his comment about about not studying further is a criticism; he states it as a fact of human nature and that some people, notably scholars, do study and find what's out there to be found. I think he is showing, in line with Elder Oaks' remarks, that some can use that interest to leverage doubts instead of good questions warranting further exploration and study. Edited November 21, 2017 by CV75 2 Link to comment
Popular Post Thinking Posted November 21, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted November 21, 2017 4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: I thought it was interesting how Elder Oaks differentiates between questions and doubts, not the first time I have seen that important distinction drawn. Questions that don't have satisfactory answers lead to doubts. 5 Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted November 21, 2017 Author Share Posted November 21, 2017 18 minutes ago, Thinking said: Questions that don't have satisfactory answers lead to doubts. Nurturing doubt exacerbates doubt and leads to further doubt. Engaging in questioning leads to greater light and understanding. Elder Oaks is spot on. 2 Link to comment
sunstoned Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 13 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Nurturing doubt exacerbates doubt and leads to further doubt. Engaging in questioning leads to greater light and understanding. Elder Oaks is spot on. Doubt often sparks questioning which can be the driving force to research and find answers. It is all good. 3 Link to comment
Jane_Doe Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 43 minutes ago, Thinking said: Questions that don't have satisfactory answers lead to doubts. They *can* lead to doubts. They don't have too. And then there's the issue of how you deal with the doubts you do have. 3 Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted November 21, 2017 Author Share Posted November 21, 2017 3 hours ago, CV75 said: I will hazard a guess that Elder Snow is not speaking specifically of the First Vision accounts. Also, Elder Ballard is speaking in the present tense 4 years after Elder Snow's comment. Also, not being open is not necessarily the same as hiding. Well said. Context matters. Elder Snow’s context is the past accessibility of records from the Church History Department. Elder Ballard’s context is the openness and transparency with which the Brethren address the people they speak to in the course of their ministry. And both men are saying there is openness and transparency today. 2 Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted November 21, 2017 Author Share Posted November 21, 2017 39 minutes ago, sunstoned said: Doubt often sparks questioning which can be the driving force to research and find answers. It is all good. This misses the point of Elder Oaks’s definitions. Doubt implies rejection and distrust, which the scriptures condemn as pertaining to gospel truths (watch the replay of the broadcast; he gave several compelling passages). Wallowing in constant doubt doesn’t bring resolution or enlightenment any more than wallowing in self-pity brings happiness. 4 Link to comment
Atheist Mormon Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 47 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said: They *can* lead to doubts. They don't have too. And then there's the issue of how you deal with the doubts you do have. Well, top brass should know by now...it is not doubt they are dealing with, it's a little bit worse; It is called "SKEPTICISM". Link to comment
Tacenda Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: Nurturing doubt exacerbates doubt and leads to further doubt. Engaging in questioning leads to greater light and understanding. Elder Oaks is spot on. I can question all day long and it still doesn't provide answers, just truth. Truth doesn't always have an answer, it's anybody's guess. The only way you can make it work is have faith that the Lord will answer. But if your instinct is that it was a wrong practice than I think we need to trust our intutions and find a faith that feels correct or right. Sometimes things don't pass the smell test and we're told to just believe. I think that is super cultish. Link to comment
pogi Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 59 minutes ago, sunstoned said: Doubt often sparks questioning which can be the driving force to research and find answers. It is all good. It can also lead to debilitating bias which clouds judgment and limits perspective. It is not “all good”. 4 Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted November 21, 2017 Author Share Posted November 21, 2017 8 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I can question all day long and it still doesn't provide answers, just truth. Truth doesn't always have an answer, it's anybody's guess. The only way you can make it work is have faith that the Lord will answer. But if your instinct is that it was a wrong practice than I think we need to trust our intutions and find a faith that feels correct or right. Sometimes things don't pass the smell test and we're told to just believe. I think that is super cultish. Questioning can open the way to ascertaining and discovering truth. I disagree that questioning never yields answers. Link to comment
Tacenda Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Questioning can open the way to ascertaining and discovering truth. I disagree that questioning never yields answers. I guess I just don't like the answers. Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted November 21, 2017 Author Share Posted November 21, 2017 2 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I guess I just don't like the answers. Don’t like what answers? It’s hard to have a coherent conversation without knowing what you’re talking about. Link to comment
Tacenda Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 13 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Don’t like what answers? It’s hard to have a coherent conversation without knowing what you’re talking about. The answers in the Gospel Topic Essays to start with. Link to comment
Jane_Doe Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 6 minutes ago, Tacenda said: The answers in the Gospel Topic Essays to start with. That's still not very specific. The essays cover a range of topics and then each hits on a lot of points within each topic. 1 Link to comment
Tacenda Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said: That's still not very specific. The essays cover a range of topics and then each hits on a lot of points within each topic. Joseph Smith's wives ages and marrying already married women and that an angel with a drawn sword threatened JS. Why? Why would God/Jesus take someone's free agency and there are no answers for him marrying married women. And seriously, why for instance do the essays say Helen Mar Kimball was just shy of her 15th birthday. Why not just say she is 14? They can't bring themselves to admit it? And the essays are just shy of saying the PH ban was fully racist. Edited November 21, 2017 by Tacenda Link to comment
Thinking Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Nurturing doubt exacerbates doubt and leads to further doubt. Or when I ask my bishop some questions and he admits to not knowing the answers, but that he is sure that we will learn the answers to those questions in the next life. Link to comment
Jane_Doe Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 7 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Joseph Smith's wives ages and marrying already married women and that an angel with a drawn sword threatened JS. Why? Why would God/Jesus take someone's free agency and there are no answers for him marrying married women. And seriously, why for instance do the essays say Helen Mar Kimball was just shy of her 15th birthday. Why not just say she is 14? They can't bring themselves to admit it? And the essays are just shy of saying the PH ban was fully racist. Now, those indeed are specific questions. Did you want to talk about them, or were you more wanting to express your frustration here? Link to comment
Popular Post clarkgoble Posted November 21, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted November 21, 2017 3 hours ago, Thinking said: Questions that don't have satisfactory answers lead to doubts. Not necessarily. I'd note that there are many long standing questions in science that don't make most scientists doubt the well established theories. Questions about dark matter, dark energy, or quantum gravity don't make me think general relativity is wrong about what it does describe. 7 Link to comment
Oliblish Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 8 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Elder Oaks: “The facts are we don’t study; we don’t go back and search what has been said on the subject. For example, Dr. James B. Allen of BYU in 1970 produced an article in the Church magazines explaining all about the different versions of the First Vision.” Does anyone have a link to the 1970 article? What church magazine was it in? I am interested in reading it. Link to comment
Robert F. Smith Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 5 hours ago, JLHPROF said: I think the issue here is controlling the narrative, not hiding the facts. If you have to go back to 1970 to find a comparison of the First Vision accounts in a Church magazine that's a problem. (But that alone isn't a smoking gun). And I'm betting there have even been a few other accounts in Church publications in the last 40 years. But how do they measure up against the repeated and reprinted official PoGP version? Did any of the information readily available to the saints in 1970 make it into any of the curriculum that covers the First Vision? Is that hiding information? No, it was available. Is that tightly controlling what the average member knows about the First Vision, and therefore the narrative around it? You bet. But he's right. The average member doesn't study. They don't go back. I don't understand that myself, but clearly the Church has no problem with members sticking to the Sunday School version of history. A great deal of what you say here is true, but it lacks perspective: All religious organizations try to adopt standard versions of their history and pass that on. It is impractical to do it in any other way, and that is true of Judaism and Christianity generally. Naturally, scholars will try to find out as much as possible about what lies behind those standard, versions using specialized techniques. That can be very confusing to those who don't understand how histories are written, and miss the basic purpose of any religious movement. Indeed, in many respects, the Brethren are no better informed about the technical nature of history than the ordinary member. 2 Link to comment
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