Elder Oaks and Elder Ballard "Face to Face" Event: Dealing with doubts

[bluebell]

45 minutes ago, cinepro said:

That works in the real world, but in Mormonism, there is no "almost 13."

If you were having a huge family reunion with 150 aunts, uncles, cousins and brothers and sisters, and the reunion was ending on Sunday but one of the kids was turning 8 on Monday and they wanted to get baptized on Sunday so all of their family could see it, you could petition the 1st Presidency and the answer would be "no."  They have to wait until Monday when they turn 8.

If you had a son who was turning 12 on Friday, but his grandfather was on life support and most certainly was going to pass away by Wednesday, and his dying wish was to lay his hands on his grandson's head and ordain him to the Preisthood, you could petition the 1st Presidency and the answer would be "no, he has to be 12."

Every year in SoCal, they have a huge multi-stake "Mormon Prom" where youth from all over go to a fancy and memorable evening at a notable location.  If a girl or boy is turning 16 on Sunday and the dance is the night before, and they really want to go to the dance with all their friends from their stake, the answer is still "no", because they aren't 16 yet at the time of the dance.

So to have the Church pretend that there is such a thing as being "almost 15", especially in the context of a plural marriage, is a little absurd.

I get what you are saying but just because there isn't an almost 8 doesn't mean there isn't an almost 13.  There are only a few ages in the church that really matter.  For all other ages, 'almost' can be just as valid as the actual age. 

(also, i'm not sure that we can say that any first presidency petition would be automatically be answered no because of age.  I've seen the church skirt around some requirements in the past, such as not being able to be sealed in the temple until a year after your baptism.  We have family friends who were allowed to do it a few days early after receiving permission from the temple president).

But as I've said in an earlier post, while I don't see a problem with someone claiming someone else was 'almost' a certain age if they were within weeks of their birthday, I don't think it's valid to use the 'almost' label if the person still has months to go.  I agree that it was silly for the church to label Helen as almost 15 when her birthday wasn't for months still.

 

[cinepro]

As for the fireside itself, I didn't expect much from it but even then I was a little surprised at how facile it was. 

I acknowledge I have tunnel vision from my time on the internet and from the personal experience I see with my family members and others of that age, but I expected this to be a more solid approach to dealing with doubt and stemming the tide of disaffection.

But instead, it felt like the captain of the Titanic getting everyone together on deck and talking about picking up their towels in the gymnasium and not being late for dinner as the lifeboats are being loaded behind him.

[Jane_Doe]

46 minutes ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

These are youth 

Actually, the audience was adults.  And they are capable of thinking, praying, and paying attention to the many times they've heard Mormonism 101 lessons.  

Edited November 21, 2017 by Jane_Doe

[HappyJackWagon]

22 minutes ago, cinepro said:

As for the fireside itself, I didn't expect much from it but even then I was a little surprised at how facile it was. 

I acknowledge I have tunnel vision from my time on the internet and from the personal experience I see with my family members and others of that age, but I expected this to be a more solid approach to dealing with doubt and stemming the tide of disaffection.

But instead, it felt like the captain of the Titanic getting everyone together on deck and talking about picking up their towels in the gymnasium and not being late for dinner as the lifeboats are being loaded behind him.

Great 25 cent word there and I love the "picking up towels" analogy.

[Jeanne]

16 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I can question all day long and it still doesn't provide answers, just truth. Truth doesn't always have an answer, it's anybody's guess. The only way you can make it work is have faith that the Lord will answer. But if your instinct is that it was a wrong practice than I think we need to trust our intutions and find a faith that feels correct or right. Sometimes things don't pass the smell test and we're told to just believe. I think that is super cultish. 

Another manual rep point Tacenda...

 

[Jeanne]

14 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

And how is this problematic?

Because the guideline is that if you have a problem..a question....or need help...please see your bishop...He is the father of the ward and will help and guide you.  Waiting until you die doesn't help does it???

[Pete Ahlstrom]

28 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Actually, the audience was adults.  And they are capable of thinking, praying, and paying attention to the many times they've heard Mormonism 101 lessons.  

You're right, young single adults. They are capable of thinking and let's hope they do and question every time someone asks them to trust.

[stemelbow]

Quote

The youngest was Helen Mar Kimball, daughter of Joseph’s close friends Heber C. and Vilate Murray Kimball, who was sealed to Joseph several months before her 15th birthday.

I think it's at least debatable about whether Helen mar was the youngest.  Nancy Winchester was 14 too, but we don't know when their marriage took place.  Some date it to 1842 and others to 1843.  She was born the same year as Helen Mar but a month before her.  If 1842 then she was younger than Helen Mar.  But if 1843 it would depend on which month.  

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, stemelbow said:

So was the Church not following the Lord's way before?

Obviously, I doubt anyone can argue otherwise, the Church was in the business of stopping record access, stifle information flow.  I think everyone also agrees, the Church is trying to do much better.  of course, we'll always have, it seems, many things the Church does not in any way intend to be open about--like finances.  Of course Elder Ballard knows they can be more transparent when it comes to Church finances.  

Some of these answers are really problematic.  

 

You're late with this. Duncan beat you to the punch.

See the second post on this thread. And responses to it.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

Because the guideline is that if you have a problem..a question....or need help...please see your bishop...He is the father of the ward and will help and guide you.  Waiting until you die doesn't help does it???

Fact is, there are some questions that cannot be answered and probably won't be during mortality, which has as one of its purposes to help us learn to live by faith. There would be no need for faith if every question could be answered definitively. So I don't know what the poster was going on about, but it may well have been that the bishop referred to answered as best he could.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

 I agree that it was silly for the church to label Helen as almost 15 when her birthday wasn't for months still.

 

I think it's the proverbial much ado about nothing.

"A few months shy of her 15th birthday" isn't going to fool anybody, nor do I believe it was intended to.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

You're right, young single adults. They are capable of thinking and let's hope they do and question every time someone asks them to trust.

I think more important than questioning every time someone asks them to trust is to determine who is and who is not trustworthy.

Some who fuss about Church members trusting Church leaders too much are gullible on their own part in trusting those who cast themselves as antagonists of the Church. As Exhibit 1, I cite adherents to "Letters to a CES Director."

Edited November 21, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[bluebell]

36 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I think it's the proverbial much ado about nothing.

"A few months shy of her 15th birthday" isn't going to fool anybody, nor do I believe it was intended to.

I don't think it fools anyone, but I do think that the writers of the essay were doing something akin to psychological pricing.  

[Pete Ahlstrom]

58 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I think more important than questioning every time someone asks them to trust is to determine who is and who is not trustworthy.

Some who fuss about Church members trusting Church leaders too much are gullible on their own part in trusting those who cast themselves as antagonists of the Church. As Exhibit 1, I cite adherents to "Letters to a CES Director."

I'm sure if you thought about it a bit, you'd realize that if one questions church leaders it doesn't necessarily mean that they side with the ces letter. Obviously it isn't black and white like that.

[Pete Ahlstrom]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I think it's the proverbial much ado about nothing.

"A few months shy of her 15th birthday" isn't going to fool anybody, nor do I believe it was intended to.

Really? Then why say it like that and not just say 14? Do you really think the words in the essays were haphazzardly put down? Or were the words planned and debated for a time prior to being finalized for publication? There were many revisions I'm sure and "a few months shy of her 15th birthday" sure sounds better than 14.

[Scott Lloyd]

43 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I don't think it fools anyone, but I do think that the writers of the essay were doing something akin to psychological pricing.  

On that theory, it might be argued that saying she was 14 could convey a less accurate impression than "a few months shy of her 15th birthday," as, with the former, a reader is psychologically inclined to conclude that she was closer to 14 than to 15.

But I've said all this is much ado about nothing anyway, and I stand by that.

 

Edited November 22, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

18 minutes ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

Really? Then why say it like that and not just say 14? Do you really think the words in the essays were haphazzardly put down? Or were the words planned and debated for a time prior to being finalized for publication? There were many revisions I'm sure and "a few months shy of her 15th birthday" sure sounds better than 14.

I don't know why it was worded that way. I'm just saying it's much ado about nothing.

We could take a poll, I suppose, and find out how many people on this board are dimwitted enough to have been misled into thinking she was actually 15 and not 14, but I don't see much point in that.

For my part, I define few as meaning more than two,  but not many. Thus, when I read a phrase like "a few months shy of her 15th birthday," my inclination is to interpret it to mean she was 14 years and 9 months old -- which turns out to be pretty close to the mark.

 

Edited November 22, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

19 minutes ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

I'm sure if you thought about it a bit, you'd realize that if one questions church leaders it doesn't necessarily mean that they side with the ces letter. Obviously it isn't black and white like that.

Never said it was. I'm just saying it makes a difference whom you decide to trust.

And some degree of trust (and trustworthiness) is vital. Our civilization would collapse without it.

I've seen some who are as cynical as you seem to be calling for everyone to be. We sometimes call them conspiracy theorists.

Of course they trust too much as well. They trust each other.

[stemelbow]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You're late with this. Duncan beat you to the punch.

See the second post on this thread. And responses to it.

 

No one addressed any of the questions I asked.  You have any answers?  

I see Duncan referred to the same quote though.  So good for him 

[Pete Ahlstrom]

15 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Never said it was. I'm just saying it makes a difference whom you decide to trust.

And some degree of trust (and trustworthiness) is vital. Our civilization would collapse without it.

I've seen some who are as cynical as you seem to be calling for everyone to be. We sometimes call them conspiracy theorists.

Of course they trust too much as well. They trust each other.

Thanks for kind of calling me a conspiracy theorist and not going all the way.  Some, maybe like you are, think everything the church leaders do and say is above reproach.  These seem to be the next affinity fraud victims.

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Fact is, there are some questions that cannot be answered and probably won't be during mortality, which has as one of its purposes to help us learn to live by faith. There would be no need for faith if every question could be answered definitively. So I don't know what the poster was going on about, but it may well have been that the bishop referred to answered as best he could.

I understand Scott what you are saying...and to a point, I agree.  But everyone goes to the bishop because they should.  I am not saying that a Bishop should have all the answers...but why build this hope of any solution to questions and answers when it is so easy to say...wait until this mortal life is over.  Like priesthood blessings...it is always the will of God...and yet we are to believe in a power far beyond this realm that says that prayers are answered.  Why can't hope and faith work together??  You will always have an answer for me...it will require a certain faith and yet so many promises of the faithful are naught...the answers are empty because we are required to live and yet wait not to live in or order to make sense of so many things. 

[california boy]

21 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I don't know why it was worded that way. I'm just saying it's much ado about nothing.

We could take a poll, I suppose, and find out how many people on this board are dimwitted enough to have been misled into thinking she was actually 15 and not 14, but I don't see much point in that.

For my part, I define few as meaning more than two,  but not many. Thus, when I read a phrase like "a few months shy of her 15th birthday," my inclination is to interpret it to mean she was 14 years and 9 months old -- which turns out to be pretty close to the mark.

 

Do you think that part of the uproar about this shading the way the church wants it to read is because some are a bit hypersensitive to the way the church has been skewing the narrative to make it appear in the best possible light even when it sometimes crosses over to being a bit of a stretch.  Then when they see the same kind of approach in the essays which were suppose to be a more open and honest approach to church history, they see the same type of behavior?  Just be upfront.  She was 14.  Is it worth it to stretch her age to just shy of 15 when it reinforces a distrust that is already an issue?

[Scott Lloyd]

17 minutes ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

Thanks for kind of calling me a conspiracy theorist and not going all the way. 

My pleasure. Thought I should give you the benefit of the doubt.

Quote

Some, maybe like you are, think everything the church leaders do and say is above reproach. 

I don't think that. I just believe, based upon years of observation and some degree of personal acquaintance, that the prophets and apostles eclipse their detractors in terms of character, decency and trustworthiness.

Quote

These seem to be the next affinity fraud victims.

I'm probably at least as disgusted by affinity fraud as you are. But I don't see members of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve engaging in it.

But since you bring it up, I've noticed that it is fairly common for apostates to emphasize their Mormon pioneer lineage and past callings in the Church. I've pondered over why they do it. It is as though they hope to establish some sort of common ground with those whom they hope to lead off into apostasy. Could this, in a sense, be regarded as affinity fraud?

 

Edited November 22, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

14 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

No one addressed any of the questions I asked.  You have any answers?  

I see Duncan referred to the same quote though.  So good for him 

I confess I didn't pay much attention to your questions. I just saw you citing the same quote and got this distinct sense of deja vu.

 

Edited November 22, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

13 minutes ago, california boy said:

Do you think that part of the uproar about this shading the way the church wants it to read is because some are a bit hypersensitive to the way the church has been skewing the narrative to make it appear in the best possible light even when it sometimes crosses over to being a bit of a stretch.  Then when they see the same kind of approach in the essays which were suppose to be a more open and honest approach to church history, they see the same type of behavior?  Just be upfront.  She was 14.  Is it worth it to stretch her age to just shy of 15 when it reinforces a distrust that is already an issue?

As I've already pointed out, it's at least as misleading -- and probably more so -- to say she was 14 as it is to say she was a few months shy of 15, as the former is apt to make the reader think she was closer to 14 than to 15. At least the latter imbues it with a greater degree of precision, which, in the end, is more trustworthy and credible.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Scott Lloyd