Hearing from women who have been abused

[Jeanne]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

When a junior in high school, I went on one date with a senior (not a member).  I was an idiot, naive.  We went to his work office, which was of course empty.  Thankfully he only turned the lights out and put his arms around me 'playfully'.  I thought he was joking and responded accordingly, so he pulled back.  Looking back I lucked out he was apparently wanting a real relationship because he had boundary issues.  When I turned down a second date (didn't think it was fair to him because I was only interested in being friends, he was brilliant and I loved talking with him, but no spark), he came to my work (public library) and pulled the carburetor out of my car so it wouldn't start and I would have to talk to him.  We were the only people in the parking lot after dark...and I still wasn't afraid of him though I remember thinking if I have to scream the police station is right there so they should hear me.  Such an idiot. I should have just gotten out of my car, pushed him out of my way and started walking towards the police, but I was too passive back then.  Eventually he got the message (I told him my parents wouldn't let me as he wasn't a member since he wouldn't take "no" from me), restored the car and I went home.  My parents were clueless as well.  Never got a safety talk from them, even after this.  Said hardly anything beyond 'why would you talk to him?'  No reassurance that they wouldn't have blamed me if I had locked myself in the car and he had walked off with the carburetor and they had to not only come get me, but fix the car.

Seriously, why would a highly intelligent human being think he had a right to force someone to talk to him who didn't want to?  And yet I can imagine guys thinking he was being romantic and that should be appealing to a girl rather than leave her thinking of what were the options if he tries to rape her.  He certainly seemed to have the impression I would think it was cool when I was actually angry and trying not to show it.

Got the usual cat calls walking down the street.  I may have lucked out at school except for being given a few gifts and being asked out by guys I had just been nice too.  It was probably my cluelessness to some extent, the gift stuff made me feel weird rather than obligated thankfully.  Being terminally shy had its benefits looking back.  Couple of situations at BYU I got into because again guys had boundary issues and apparently didn't think it was necessary to make sure I was equally attracted or even attracted before asking me to marry them.  Being nice and paying attention to people as individuals has its drawbacks at times in male-female situations.

.

Wow Calm..I feel for that young girl that was you.

[Duncan]

i saw an interview the other night and for the life of me I can't recall which Hollywood actress said it, so take this with a 10000000 lbs of salt, but she said that for every pig in hollywood there are decent, men who treat women with respect but those men aren't being talked about because those men aren't raping or molesting or making jokes. It's the bad ones who need to be shined a light on and held accountable for their actions. I remember another interview some years ago this actress said that when she was a teen she was filming just for a few days in a show. However she was getting home bailed on her and she didn't know how she was going to get home and she was tearing up and didn't really know anyone or anything and so one of the male actors saw her and offered her a ride. It was late at night and her drove her home every night and saw she got in okay but she said he never made any advances or did anything inappropriate towards her. It's the bad ones though that seperate themselves from the herd and rightfully get caught and hopefully get what's coming to them. The male pigs find themselves in every industry, politics, engineering, the law, it's all over the place so i don't know if it's germain to hollywood, I mean how elected politicians get busted in a scandal like this?

[smac97]

26 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I think the 'not all men' mantra is part of the problem right now.  

Right.  Much better to resort to an "all men" mantra.  As in "all men are inchoate rapists," or something.

Not helpful, I think.

Quote

It's used to deflect and we don't need more deflection on this topic.

It's used to suggest that publicly painting all men as inchoate rapists is not healthy.  Or valid.

It's used to slow down an we-have-carte-blanche-to-say-anything-we-like-that-is-horrible-about-men mentality.

Quote

It's also very similar to the 'what about men who are abused' mantra that we often hear about when this discussion comes up.  

So sexual abuse of men is a subordinate concern.  Not on par with sexual abuse of women.  A "deflection."  "Not appropriate."  

Check.

Quote

Like someone else said, it's not appropriate to got to an event about breast cancer and start yelling 'what about prostrate cancer?!'.  

You're probably right.  But this isn't such an event, is it?  The thread is about "Hearing Those Who Have Been Abused."

So talking about men who have been abused in this thread is inappropriate because . . .?

Quote

Most people inherently seem to understand that.  But what some people don't seem to get is that it's not appropriate to get into a discussion about sexual abuse suffered by women and bring up 'what about the men'.  

Since when is a thread about "Hearing Those Who Have Been Abused" necessarily "a discussion about sexual abuse suffered by women?"

Quote

No one is discounting the men,

That is precisely what you are doing.  In a thread entitled "Hearing Those Who Have Been Abused" talking about men being abused is verboten.  It is not a part of the topic that merits attention, and is instead - in your words - merely "a deflection."  It is - in your words - "not appropriate."

Men are supposed to read such things and then not feel "discounted?"  How does that work?

Quote

but they aren't the subject being discussed right now and that's o.k.  

They aren't?  "Hearing Those Who Have Been Abused" is necessarily limited to "Hearing Those {WOMEN} Who Have Been Abused?"  Why is that?

Right.  No "discounting the men."  At all.

-Smac

Edited October 17, 2017 by smac97

[Calm]

"Good and decent men don't need to be told, repeatedly "not to rape" women."

But it is not just about rape.  It is about having to walk the world in fear.

I think the guys who expressed interest in me were good and decent men, but they still knowingly put me in situations where I was or should have been afraid.  Good and decent men need to be aware of how women must view the world because there are bad men in it.  They need to learn not to take advantage of their size and situation in order to force women to engage with them.  They need to learn to stay in safe places so women don't become fearful.  They need to learn not to try and guilt a woman into giving them a chance, but respect her choices.

[juliann]

31 minutes ago, smac97 said:

 

What on earth am I reading here?  How are men supposed to function if they are, simply by existing, presumed to be "terrifying," barely-constrained rapists on the prowl?

I think I'll log off for a while.  My wife and daughters love me.  They do not think of me in such a horrible, horrible way.  I am, frankly, disturbed to read that my fellow Latter-day Saints think of me this way.  I am "terrifying" to them.  I am an inchoate rapist to them.

Yeah, I'll log off for a while.

-Smac

Oh. My. Gosh.  A hundred women could post their experiences here and it would still be all about you. 

 

Edited October 17, 2017 by juliann

[smac97]

4 minutes ago, juliann said:

Oh. My. Gosh.  A hundred women could post their experiences here and it would still be all about you. 

No, it's not "all about" me.  It's about the characterization of men.  All men, it seems.  As inchoate rapists.

-Smac

[juliann]

1 minute ago, smac97 said:

Right.  Much better to resort to an "all men" mantra.  

 

[bluebell]

7 minutes ago, smac97 said:

  What conclusion am I supposed to draw, except that some women are "terrified" of me because they think of me - and all men - as potential/inchoate rapists?

That's probably a good conclusion to draw.  No one is saying that it's fair.  It's not fair what women have to go through either.  Hopefully our society can change so that women can stop being afraid whenever they are vulnerable in the presence of a guy and good men can stop being feared.

Quote

 

What on earth am I reading here?  How are men supposed to function if they are, simply by existing, presumed to be "terrifying," barely-constrained rapists on the prowl?

I think I'll log off for a while.  My wife and daughters love me.  They do not think of me in such a horrible, horrible way.  I am, frankly, disturbed to read that my fellow Latter-day Saints think of me this way.  I am "terrifying" to them.  I am an inchoate rapist to them.

Yeah, I'll log off for a while.

-Smac

 

If women manage to function with all the crap we have to deal with every time we leave the house, then i'm sure you can manage to function knowing that women you aren't related to are wary to be around you when they are vulnerable.  I guess it's just your cross to bear.  Try to stay strong.

I'm in honestly in shock that i'm actually having to respond to a man who's making himself the victim on this thread--because other men have made it so that women are fearful of men in general--and trying to make women feel guilty for being afraid of him. 

Seriously?!  It's probably a good thing for you to log off for a while.

[Jane_Doe]

17 minutes ago, Calm said:

When a junior in high school, I went on one date with a senior (not a member).  I was an idiot, naive.  We went to his work office, which was of course empty.  Thankfully he only turned the lights out and put his arms around me 'playfully'.  I thought he was joking and responded accordingly, so he pulled back.  Looking back I lucked out he was apparently wanting a real relationship because he had boundary issues.  When I turned down a second date (didn't think it was fair to him because I was only interested in being friends, he was brilliant and I loved talking with him, but no spark), he came to my work (public library) and pulled the carburetor out of my car so it wouldn't start and I would have to talk to him.  We were the only people in the parking lot after dark...and I still wasn't afraid of him though I remember thinking if I have to scream the police station is right there so they should hear me.  Such an idiot. I should have just gotten out of my car, pushed him out of my way and started walking towards the police, but I was too passive back then.  Eventually he got the message (I told him my parents wouldn't let me as he wasn't a member since he wouldn't take "no" from me), restored the car and I went home.  My parents were clueless as well.  Never got a safety talk from them, even after this.  Said hardly anything beyond 'why would you talk to him?'  No reassurance that they wouldn't have blamed me if I had locked myself in the car and he had walked off with the carburetor and they had to not only come get me, but fix the car.

Seriously, why would a highly intelligent human being think he had a right to force someone to talk to him who didn't want to?  And yet I can imagine guys thinking he was being romantic and that should be appealing to a girl rather than leave her thinking of what were the options if he tries to rape her.  He certainly seemed to have the impression I would think it was cool when I was actually angry and trying not to show it..

I had a very similar thing happen to me @Calm.  The guy pushed this further, even asking bluntly for sexual things and not dropping it until I shut down everything.  Of course I didn't tell anyone about it.  The same guy showed up two weeks later for my high school graduation, putting on such a charming face for all my grandparents and cousins.  

For months I dealt with well-meaning relatives who asked "what about that super nice guy who brought you flowers at your graduation?  Do you like him?"

Me: "No."

Well-meaning family: "Well maybe you should give him a shot".

Me: "No."

Well-meaning family: "Well how about you invite him to a movie."  (Note: the whole incident above happened after a movie)

Me: "No."

"But why not?  He was so nice!"

Me: "We aren't speaking."

"But why not?"

Me: "Cause I'm angry at him".

*Cue forgiveness lecture I totally didn't listen to, instead thinking this relative is totally clueless and naive and generally despicable company*

Edited October 17, 2017 by Jane_Doe

[Calm]

All men are not rapists, but all men need to become aware that almost all women experience abuse in some form or other from some men.  All men need to be aware that there are boundaries that shouldn't be crossed without asking for permission first, boundaries of personal space that the vast majority of time have nothing to do with rape, but everything to do with feeling safe.

[bluebell]

30 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Right.  Much better to resort to an "all men" mantra.  As in "all men are inchoate rapists," or something.

Not helpful, I think.

Straw man argument used to deflect. 

Quote

 

You're probably right.  But this isn't such an event, is it?  The thread is about "Hearing Those Who Have Been Abused."

So talking about men who have been abused in this thread is inappropriate because . . .?

 

Because the OP is about the abuse suffered by women.

 

Quote

Men are supposed to read such things and then not feel "discounted?"  How does that work?

Yes, men are supposed to be able to read something from a female perspective and not feel discounted.  It doesn't always have to be about men and when it's not about men, men should not find that offensive.  

 

Edited October 17, 2017 by bluebell

[bluebell]

15 minutes ago, Duncan said:

i saw an interview the other night and for the life of me I can't recall which Hollywood actress said it, so take this with a 10000000 lbs of salt, but she said that for every pig in hollywood there are decent, men who treat women with respect but those men aren't being talked about because those men aren't raping or molesting or making jokes. It's the bad ones who need to be shined a light on and held accountable for their actions. I remember another interview some years ago this actress said that when she was a teen she was filming just for a few days in a show. However she was getting home bailed on her and she didn't know how she was going to get home and she was tearing up and didn't really know anyone or anything and so one of the male actors saw her and offered her a ride. It was late at night and her drove her home every night and saw she got in okay but she said he never made any advances or did anything inappropriate towards her. It's the bad ones though that seperate themselves from the herd and rightfully get caught and hopefully get what's coming to them. The male pigs find themselves in every industry, politics, engineering, the law, it's all over the place so i don't know if it's germain to hollywood, I mean how elected politicians get busted in a scandal like this?

Thank you Duncan.  You get it.  

[bluebell]

15 minutes ago, Calm said:

"Good and decent men don't need to be told, repeatedly "not to rape" women."

But it is not just about rape.  It is about having to walk the world in fear.

I think the guys who expressed interest in me were good and decent men, but they still knowingly put me in situations where I was or should have been afraid.  Good and decent men need to be aware of how women must view the world because there are bad men in it.  They need to learn not to take advantage of their size and situation in order to force women to engage with them.  They need to learn to stay in safe places so women don't become fearful.  They need to learn not to try and guilt a woman into giving them a chance, but respect her choices.

Yes!

[Calm]

And they need to learn to not to try to make a woman feel guilty because she speaks up but isn't always careful to include disclaimers that she isn't accusing those who don't need to be accused.

[juliann]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

All men are not rapists, but all men need to become aware that almost all women experience abuse in some form or other from some men.  All men need to be aware that there are boundaries that shouldn't be crossed without asking for permission first, boundaries of personal space that the vast majority of time have nothing to do with rape, but everything to do with feeling safe.

And "all men" need to stop thinking that being a good guy in your own life bubble  is enough anymore. The only reason these predators get away with this is because they aren't being stopped or shamed by good men. I am not giving the female Hollywood A listers who had the power and prestige to nail some of these Hollywood guys a pass....they chose to wait until other women spoke up and even then hemmed and hawed that they didn't know what everyone else was saying was an open secret. 

It would be a different world if every good man swarmed the cat callers, or showed disgust at every demeaning sexist comment at work. What I see, however, is what I see on this board. Good men who refuse to even listen to what a growing number of women on this board are telling them. Or even allowing women to have a discussion without demanding that they be seen as the victim if their male supremacist ideas aren't adopted. The world has changed and is changing even more. It isn't just the women who have to adapt anymore. 

 

[smac97]

12 minutes ago, juliann said:

Oh for HEAVEN"S sake. It was a satire of what women are routinely told and that you do not get that at all sort of ends any discussion.  And we aren't talking about "good men" by any woman's definition. But that is part of the problem....men are still considered good when they harass or rape is called a "mistake." 

In what world is that happening?  An allegation of rape - just the allegation - is a career ender and reputation destroyer in many (most?) circumstances.

12 minutes ago, juliann said:

That is why we inevitably hear concerns about a young rapist's future being ruined...or my fav, what if a man is falsely accused.

"Concerns about a young rapist's future."  Ah.  So guilty until proven innocent, then?  The allegation is sufficient to brand someone (pardon me, brand a male) a rapist?  That's how things work now?

And your contempt at the notion of false rape allegations is duly noted. 

In generations past, black men were paranoid about being accused of "messing with" white women, because the accusation alone was enough to destroy a reputation (or a life, quite literally).  And yet today, in 2017, we feel at liberty to scoff at ("or my fav...") the notion of men - of any color - expressing concern about being falsely accused of sexual assault.  That's not the sort of progress we should aspire to attain.

12 minutes ago, juliann said:

Well, men should receive the same advice women do....never place yourself in a situation where you might be falsely accused! Problem solved....right?

There are ways to mitigate risks, yes.  That's not blaming the victim.  That's just common sense.

12 minutes ago, juliann said:

And here we have yet another example of men who will not allow a discussion about women without making it all about men.

Right.  Talking about men in this thread in any way except as perpetrators makes the topic "all about men."

"Shut up," she explained.  

-Smac

[bluebell]

10 minutes ago, Calm said:

All men are not rapists, but all men need to become aware that almost all women experience abuse in some form or other from some men.  All men need to be aware that there are boundaries that shouldn't be crossed without asking for permission first, boundaries of personal space that the vast majority of time have nothing to do with rape, but everything to do with feeling safe.

And men need to realize that since rapists don't wear scarlett R's on their shirts, there is no way for us to know who is a rapist and who isn't.  It's not reasonable to expect us to assume every guy is a super nice guy until we get attacked.   We don't owe men that.  I personally certainly hope that every guy i meet is a good guy (and most are), but i'm not going to let my guard down regardless.

[bluebell]

9 minutes ago, juliann said:

And "all men" need to stop thinking that being a good guy in your own life bubble  is enough anymore. The only reason these predators get away with this is because they aren't being stopped or shamed by good men. I am not giving the female Hollywood A listers who had the power and prestige to nail some of these Hollywood guys a pass....they chose to wait until other women spoke up and even then hemmed and hawed that they didn't know what everyone else was saying was an open secret. 

It would be a different world if every good man swarmed the cat callers, or showed disgust at every demeaning sexist comment at work. What I see, however, is what I see on this board. Good men who refuse to even listen to what a growing number of women on this board are telling them. Or even allowing women to have a discussion without demanding that they be seen as the victim if their male supremacist ideas aren't adopted. The world has changed and is changing even more. It isn't just the women who have to adapt anymore. 

 

Double yes.  I had a guy in high school that was very very forward in his advances.  He was constantly at me, but in a way where I guess we could be considered friends because he never touched me or verbally crossed the line in my presence.

But I learned last year that this same guy would say horrible disgusting things about me in the boys locker room (such a cliche) and the few guys in there with him that actually were my friends (from church) barely did anything to stop him.  One guy (who i considered a good friend) warned me off of him when he eventually asked me out (and i'm grateful for that) but he never confronted the guy or made him stop talking about me or anything like that.  

I just recently learned all of that and it was surprisingly difficult to process.  It felt like a betrayal even all these years later and it made me question every guy i ever thought I was friends with.  Women are in a precarious situation in this society and when you think that a 'good guy' has your back and it turns out he didn't, it hurts.

Edited October 17, 2017 by bluebell

[juliann]

10 minutes ago, smac97 said:

 

In generations past, black men were paranoid about being accused of "messing with" white women, because the accusation alone was enough to destroy a reputation (or a life, quite literally).  And yet today, in 2017, we feel at liberty to scoff at ("or my fav...") the notion of men - of any color - expressing concern about being falsely accused of sexual assault.  That's not the sort of progress we should aspire to attain.

 

I can only shake my head that you would think it appropriate to use African-Americans to support your refusal to acknowledge women's concerns and experiences. 

[juliann]

BD can elaborate on this, but this was on FB,

Quote

Today my timeline is full of decent men asking, "How can I help?", in the wake of the viral #MeToo movement created by www.twitter.com/TaranaBurke.

Maybe that is how we separate the "good men" from the predators. 

[Rain]

4 hours ago, Duncan said:

Unless someone discloses abuse you obviously don't know that it's happened in people's lives so it's interesting? to know that about someone and to see how many of your friends have been through that experience. Not a ton of people I know put up "me too" but that could be attributed to a lot of things

I clearly remember those object lessons though, I don't know if they still do them though

I participate on a message board that is probably 99.9% female. Yesterday we had a thread with post after post with the reasons they were not posting on facebook - their moms or dads did not know, their best friend's husband was the one who was the harasser, their siblings were still coming to terms with something they all experienced as a children. They didn't want to be asked about it. Sadly, there was probably a lot of stories that were never posted on facebook. 

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I think the 'not all men' mantra is part of the problem right now.  It's used to deflect and we don't need more deflection on this topic.

It's also very similar to the 'what about men who are abused' mantra that we often hear about when this discussion comes up.  Like someone else said, it's not appropriate to got to an event about breast cancer and start yelling 'what about prostrate cancer?!'.  Most people inherently seem to understand that.  But what some people don't seem to get is that it's not appropriate to get into a discussion about sexual abuse suffered by women and bring up 'what about the men'.  

No one is discounting the men, but they aren't the subject being discussed right now and that's o.k.  

There were some men who posted #me too and I'm ok with that. I'm glad they could feel support and not feel very alone like I'm sure many do feel. 

[smac97]

31 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Quote

What conclusion am I supposed to draw, except that some women are "terrified" of me because they think of me - and all men - as potential/inchoate rapists?

That's probably a good conclusion to draw.  

No, it's not.  It's rank bigotry and misandry.  I reject it.

31 minutes ago, bluebell said:

No one is saying that it's fair.  

It's more than unfair.  It's bigotry and misandry.

31 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It's not fair what women have to go through either.  

"Two wrongs do not make a right" is a very well-word cliché.  But it's apt here.

31 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Hopefully our society can change so that women can stop being afraid whenever they are vulnerable in the presence of a guy and good men can stop being feared.

Black men used to have to be extra careful, based on concerns about them being untrustworthy around (white) women.  That bit of rank prejudice should be in our rearview mirror by now.  But nope.  It's alive and well.  And being deployed, in this thread, against all men.  But as you said "No one is saying that's it's fair," so I guess that means it's acceptable.  Or something.

31 minutes ago, bluebell said:

If women manage to function with all the crap we have to deal with every time we leave the house, then i'm sure you can manage to function knowing that women you aren't related to are wary to be around you when they are vulnerable.  

Oh, believe me.  I am learning something in this thread.  There are women in our society - in our LDS society, no less - who are just fine with publicly declaring that all men are inchoate rapists (as you put it, "That's probably a good conclusion to draw"), and then telling them they'll just need to shut up and accept such designations because "{n}o one is saying that it's fair."

31 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I guess it's just your cross to bear.  Try to stay strong.

Wow.  So not only are men presumptively inchoate rapists, expressing concern about such an appalling thing triggers snotty remarks like this.

What an illuminating thread.

31 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I'm in honestly in shock that i'm actually having to respond to a man who's making himself the victim on this thread

Let's see.  You are publicly accusing men - all men - of being inchoate rapists (as you put it, "That's probably a good conclusion to draw"), and then you come back around and ridicule concerns expressed by a man about being so labeled.

I'm honestly in shock, too.  

31 minutes ago, bluebell said:

--because other men have made it so that women are fearful of men in general--and trying to make women feel guilty for being afraid of him. 

You have never met me.  I have never given the slightest indication of being a sexual predator.  But because I am a male, you have publicly declared me to be an inchoate rapist.  That is bigotry and misandry of the first order.

Yes, I think you should feel "guilty" about that.  It is an appalling, shameful thing to say.  It is bearing false witness.  It is a damnable lie and falsehood to brand all of God's sons "inchoate rapists."  But you have done so.  Publicly.

31 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Seriously?!  It's probably a good thing for you to log off for a while.

With pleasure.  I am disgusted at the content of this thread.

-Smac

[smac97]

17 minutes ago, juliann said:

I can only shake my head that you would think it appropriate to use African-Americans to support your refusal to acknowledge women's concerns and experiences. 

What utter crap.  I have "refused" nothing of the sort.

I said: "I think that sexual assault is a horrible, evil thing.  I condemn it in every respect."

I said: "As a husband to a wonderful woman and a father to two wonderful daughters, I am appalled that this sort of thing happens."

I again acknowledge that sexual abuse happens.  It is a horrible, evil thing.  I condemn it in every respect.  I am appalled that this sort of thing happens.

-Smac

[bluebell]

7 minutes ago, Rain said:

There were some men who posted #me too and I'm ok with that. I'm glad they could feel support and not feel very alone like I'm sure many do feel. 

Definitely.  

[smac97]

46 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Quote

Right.  Much better to resort to an "all men" mantra.  As in "all men are inchoate rapists," or something.

Not helpful, I think.

Straw man argument used to deflect. 

Um, what?  You elsewhere have told me that it is "probably a good conclusion to draw" that "some women are 'terrified' of me because they think of me - and all men - as potential/inchoate rapists."

Again, this conclusion is - in your words - "good."  But now you are calling it a "straw man."

Quote

Quote

You're probably right.  But this isn't such an event, is it?  The thread is about "Hearing Those Who Have Been Abused."

So talking about men who have been abused in this thread is inappropriate because . . .?

Because the OP is about the abuse suffered by women.

But the title of the thread is about "Hearing Those Who Have Been Abused."

Quote

Yes, men are supposed to be able to read something from a female perspective and not feel discounted.  It doesn't always have to be about men and when it's not about men, men should not find that offensive.  

The part I find offensive, and damnably false, is the notion that all men are inchoate rapists.

-Smac

Edited October 17, 2017 by smac97