Would you worship a God who commanded lying?

[pogi]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

We know God also kills and sometimes commands us to kill.

Can God then lie and command us to lie?

And by that same logic can God commit adultery and command us to commit adultery?

Where is the line?

I wondered the same thing.  Ultimately though, the line is not for us to draw.  

It is easy to see why God commanded us not to kill, but it is also understandable why he might make exceptions.  The same is true for lying.  Adultery, on the other hand, seems harder to find any good purpose or justifiable exception.  

One possible measure could be this - can any good come of it without harming the innocent or non-condemned of God?  If so, then I could see how there could be theoretical exceptions made for any commandment that passes that test.

Edited October 13, 2017 by pogi

[changed]

12 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Not as a general policy but situationally: Sure. Joseph Smith made it clear God could create exceptions to his laws.

"Are you hiding any Jews in your house?"

If you were a school principal and an angry mob came to kill the atheist or Mormon or Catholic or whatever kids and asked to point them out would you? Or would you destroy any records and claim everyone belonged to the targeted group? I think God would smile on that lie.

There are times to lie. They should be rare though

So you believe it is ok to lie in order to save lives? What about all the examples in scripture where people are stoned and killed for their beliefs?  You think they should have lied, said they did not believe in God etc. to escape being thrown into the fire?

[changed]

41 minutes ago, pogi said:

I wondered the same thing.  Ultimately though, the line is not for us to draw.  

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemma

If god would "cease to be God" under certain scenarios, then it is not up to God to define what is right, and what is wrong.  

Right and wrong exist with or without god - and if god does not adhere to right/wrong, just/unjust, etc. then he would cease to be god.

the line is not for god to draw either.

nature has drawn the line.  perhaps that means nature is the real god of us all.

Edited October 13, 2017 by changed

[changed]

13 hours ago, Five Solas said:

.... precedent for commanding lies—a couple thousand years previous in the case of Abraham and his wife Sarah, wherein Abraham lied to Abimelech about the status of Sarah, claiming she was his sister.  The story is told in Genesis 20 (again, sans any command to lie)....

____________________________________

 

Abraham did not lie, sarah was his sister.  we are all brothers and sisters - that is what we call one another at church, brothers and sisters.

 

Did Nephi lie to Zoram?   not exactly... Zoram just did not ask the right questions, Zoram assumed a few things, and Nephi did not correct the assumptions.  prety close to a lie, but not exactly.

Edited October 13, 2017 by changed

[Avatar4321]

15 hours ago, Five Solas said:

On another thread, several LDS posters rallied to defend a statement made by the late Robert D. Hales that had been called into question.  I won’t rehash it here, but among the more ingenious defenses was the notion that Jesus commanded Peter to deny him (initially attributed to the late Spencer W. Kimball).  The story is told in John 18:15-27 and elsewhere (sans the command to lie).

Called out on it, another LDS poster defended the notion by arguing God (or at least the LDS one) had established a precedent for commanding lies—a couple thousand years previous in the case of Abraham and his wife Sarah, wherein Abraham lied to Abimelech about the status of Sarah, claiming she was his sister.  The story is told in Genesis 20 (again, sans any command to lie).

My request for a Scripture reference was ignored and when I asked again, another LDS poster chimed in that it wasn’t necessary for any to be provided.  (A curious attitude for a discussion board, at least in my opinion--but he got a "like" for his effort from the other one--so there you go.)

But I wanted to explore the topic further and with the help of a poll on a dedicated thread.  So here we go: Would you worship a God who commanded lies?

--Erik

____________________________________

So lie to me
But do it with sincerity
Make me listen
Just for a minute
Make me think
There's some truth in it

--Depeche Mode, 1984

 

Where did Abraham lie?

[california boy]

7 hours ago, pogi said:

Yet he commanded the Israelite's and others to kill.  

It is not that God doesn't have the power to do all things all on his own - he doesn't need anything from us.  He doesn't need my tithing, etc.  I suspect that is more for my learning and benefit than anything. 

There are many things in the scriptures that are attributed to God as a way those in power justify what they do.  Nothing has changed.  It still goes on today.  God is a great allie to invoke when you want people to follow you without questioning the morality of your actions.

[california boy]

4 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

We know God also kills and sometimes commands us to kill.

Can God then lie and command us to lie?

And by that same logic can God commit adultery and command us to commit adultery?

Where is the line?

I can think of times when those in charge have said God commanded them to sleep with other men's wives.  But first they had to marry them even though both were already married.  So they also had to lie for the Lord and tell their wife that they were not doing it.  Not surprising that some still question whether God was involved or not.  If he was, then God certainly has different morals than what most people believe.  

To believe all the things that are attributed to God by those in authority, you have to accept the fact that God is a bit schizophrenic.  Never kill, ok kill.  Never lie, ok lie.  Never sleep with another man's wife.  Ok go ahead, I command you to.  God is the same yesterday, today and forever, until He isn't.  Or perhaps the more logical answer.  Men of power invoke the name of God when they want to justify immoral behavior. It gets written in scripture, and people still believe it is God that is commanding the immoral behavior. 

[MorningStar]

3 hours ago, changed said:

Abraham did not lie, sarah was his sister.  we are all brothers and sisters - that is what we call one another at church, brothers and sisters.

 

Did Nephi lie to Zoram?   not exactly... Zoram just did not ask the right questions, Zoram assumed a few things, and Nephi did not correct the assumptions.  prety close to a lie, but not exactly.

Nephi intentionally spoke in the voice of Laban after putting on his clothes (after chopping off his head).  

[janderich]

7 hours ago, changed said:

So you believe it is ok to lie in order to save lives? What about all the examples in scripture where people are stoned and killed for their beliefs?  You think they should have lied, said they did not believe in God etc. to escape being thrown into the fire?

How is it that you and so many others are still stuck on the lower law? Yes, of course there are times it is right to lie in order to save lives. And again there are times when it is right to stand up for ones beliefs and even be killed for them. The higher law is written in our hearts not etched in cold hard stone. The higher law is amenable to circumstance. At one time it might be right to lie and at another it might be utterly wrong. 

Where then is our anchor? It is the spirit of the Lord which dwells within us. If the spirit be not with you then, yes follow the lower law. As Paul said, "Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient..." (1 Tim 1:9).  But for those who have felt and those who know, follow the higher law, which is fulfilled by charity, the pure love of Christ.  

[pogi]

10 hours ago, changed said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemma

If god would "cease to be God" under certain scenarios, then it is not up to God to define what is right, and what is wrong.  

Right and wrong exist with or without god - and if god does not adhere to right/wrong, just/unjust, etc. then he would cease to be god.

the line is not for god to draw either.

nature has drawn the line.  perhaps that means nature is the real god of us all.

God does work within the realms of eternal law, but eternal law is not my Father.  It did not create us. It is not our God.  The laws that God gives to man are not necessarily the same as the eternal laws that God uses and abides by.  For example, the law of Moses was different from the law of Christ, the law of tithing is different from the law of consecration, etc.  There are lower and higher laws given to us by God, and it appears that God has some leeway within eternal law to command as he pleases, so long as it does not transgress eternal law (which we have no understanding of). 

[bluebell]

7 hours ago, MorningStar said:

Nephi intentionally spoke in the voice of Laban after putting on his clothes (after chopping off his head).  

Besides that, the obvious issue is that we currently teach in the church that anytime we are deceptive we are lying, even if we don't actually tell a lie.  Nephi (and Abraham) was being deceptive by allowing Zoram to believe he was laban when he wasn't.  

[bluebell]

11 hours ago, changed said:

Abraham did not lie, sarah was his sister.  we are all brothers and sisters - that is what we call one another at church, brothers and sisters.

 

Did Nephi lie to Zoram?   not exactly... Zoram just did not ask the right questions, Zoram assumed a few things, and Nephi did not correct the assumptions.  prety close to a lie, but not exactly.

Abraham and Nephi purposely deceived others.  When we are being deceptive we are being dishonest. 

[JLHPROF]

9 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

Where did Abraham lie?

Abraham 2:22-25

Still apparently Sarai actually was his 1/2 sister.   Same Dad, different Moms.  Polygamy even before Sarah and Hagar.

Although pretending she wasn't his wife was still a lie of omission, a deception.  And it was instructed by God.
It seems like people think God is ok with deception as long as an actual lie doesn't slip out.  I know God always works on technicalities like that right?

Edited October 13, 2017 by JLHPROF

[thesometimesaint]

It is a  Sophie's Choice. It proves nothing, other than the lengths some will go to dig a pit for their neighbor.

[pogi]

11 hours ago, california boy said:

To believe all the things that are attributed to God by those in authority, you have to accept the fact that God is a bit schizophrenic.  Never kill, ok kill.  Never lie, ok lie.  Never sleep with another man's wife.  Ok go ahead, I command you to.  God is the same yesterday, today and forever, until He isn't.  Or perhaps the more logical answer.  Men of power invoke the name of God when they want to justify immoral behavior. It gets written in scripture, and people still believe it is God that is commanding the immoral behavior. 

Are you a pacifist then?  Is killing always immoral? Or, are there exceptions to the "thou shalt not kill" law?  If it is sometimes the right thing to do, than why is it so impossible for you to imagine God commanding us to do the right thing?

I get what you are saying though - first, it is ok to pluck out your neighbors eye if they pluck out yours first, and now we are supposed to forgive them and pray for them, turn the other cheek, give them our cloak also, etc. etc.!

First it is an abomination to lie with a male as you would a woman (Leviticus 18:22), and now it is ok...it gets confusing for sure!  (cheap shot! Sorry, couldn't resist)

[Kevin Christensen]

If it happens that Love is the first and great commandment, the highest value, and all general principles and commandments derive from that, then in the Grand Scheme of Things, for one whose "knows the end from the beginning" and has an intimate and personal awareness of the real impact of actions and the interconnections between all actions and beings, not just in the moment, but through time (which is what I think the Atonement really is/was), then drawing lines and getting huffy about where they are and who might cross them why when misses the point.  It's using letters to kill, and ignoring the spirit trying to give life.

I think of the scene in Les Miserables, when the little nun who had never lied tells Javert, "Nope, no one in the next room" when of course, Jean Valjean is in the next room.  For the nun, having Jean Valjean in the next room is an exceptional circumstance, not something that she deals with as a normal general principle. That lie is not at all the moral equivalent of, say, a large percentage of Trump's tweets, which are not about interconnection and consequence, but total self-interest.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

[Avatar4321]

if the Lord commands it. Do it.

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

if the Lord commands it. Do it.

That's my thinking.  God cannot command us to do anything wrong.  As with Christ and Job he may sometimes give the adversary free reign to tempt and try.  But God doesn't ever promote sin.
So if God tells you to do something you consider a sin, odds are it's not a sin.

[Bob Crockett]

I don't know if it has been said in this thread, but according to Talmudic commentators Sarai was Abraham's sister.   Probably used sophistry to get there, but that is what they say.

[sunstoned]

On 10/12/2017 at 9:49 AM, california boy said:

No I would not.

God can take care of things pretty much by Himself without requiring me or any other mortal to break one of the 10 commandments. To think that God needs us to lie for Him diminishes what we think that God has the power to do all by Himself without us mortals being used in an inappropriate way.  

Agreed.  I would not worship a god who commanded to lie.  I would also not follow a prophet who lied.  You got to draw the line somewhere.

[thesometimesaint]

1 hour ago, sunstoned said:

Agreed.  I would not worship a god who commanded to lie.  I would also not follow a prophet who lied.  You got to draw the line somewhere.

Reads like you're an Atheist. Not that there is anything wrong with that. But it is rather strange for an Atheist to come onto a religious Message Board.

Ever read about what a Sophie's Choice is?

SEE http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Sophie's+choice

Edited October 14, 2017 by thesometimesaint

[carbon dioxide]

There may be many situations where it might be appropriate to lie.  Say some abusive boyfriend comes over to the house of his girlfriend and is angry.  He asks the girls mom where her daughter is.  She lies to him to protect her daughter.  This would be good situation to lie in.  Lying is wrong if it done for selfish reaons and to protect oneself from consequences of unrighteous actions one has committed.  Lying to the wicked however may not be wrong if it is protect righteousness and protect the greater good. 

Edited October 14, 2017 by carbon dioxide

[california boy]

17 hours ago, pogi said:

Are you a pacifist then?  Is killing always immoral? Or, are there exceptions to the "thou shalt not kill" law?  If it is sometimes the right thing to do, than why is it so impossible for you to imagine God commanding us to do the right thing?

I get what you are saying though - first, it is ok to pluck out your neighbors eye if they pluck out yours first, and now we are supposed to forgive them and pray for them, turn the other cheek, give them our cloak also, etc. etc.!

First it is an abomination to lie with a male as you would a woman (Leviticus 18:22), and now it is ok...it gets confusing for sure!  (cheap shot! Sorry, couldn't resist)

Yes I am a pacifist.  There has not been a war the US has fought in my lifetime that I believe was a defensive war to protect American families.  And I think that self defense is the only justification for killing someone.

And as I said earlier, I don't believe that everything written in the Bible was revealed by God.  Often culture is a.louder voice than God when people are writing what they believe God wants us to do.  I think it is still that way with many of the statements coming from Church leaders.  If you are ingrained with the idea that having a loving relationship with someone of the same sex is wrong, and everyone around the table has the same feelings, then what would be the expected outcome.  All in favor?  Then we are united.  It must be the will of God.

[LittleNipper]

I'm a Christian and My GOD does not tell lies. 

[Physics Guy]

The orthodox Jewish teaching is that preserving human life is the highest value. Jews are not permitted to break other laws in order to preserve human life: they are required to break other laws to preserve human life. To refuse to lie, when human life is at stake, is to break the law, not keep it.

This having been said, I think the principle behind the OP is also important. I do not agree with "If God said it, then do it." Humans never really know whether God said something. Plenty of psychotic people think that God tells them to murder people, and do it. Those people probably can't help being psychotic, but the right thing to do, if you think that God is telling you to kill someone, is not to go ahead and swing that axe. It's to suspect that you might be having a psychotic episode, and go to the hospital. And even well short of that, there can definitely be points at which your church or your peer group or your superior officer tells you to do something, and it is just wrong. You are not supposed to do it anyway, because of who said it.

Sometimes the God who commands is just not the real God, but the real God is the one who speaks in your heart, to tell you that this is wrong. When in doubt, I figure this is the ultimate rule. The real God is not the one driving the nails. God's the one on the cross.