Would you worship a God who commanded lying?

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said:

It is a wise man that says no when his wife asks if this dress makes her look fat.

"It is not the dress."

Yeah, there seems to be lots of reasons I am single.

[thesometimesaint]

7 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

"It is not the dress."

Yeah, there seems to be lots of reasons I am single.

I didn't know you were single. I hope I didn't offend you.

[The Nehor]

4 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

I didn't know you were single. I hope I didn't offend you.

No, if I got offended by being single I would be an apostate hanging out outside General Conference distributing leaflets about Fanny Alger by now.

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

I didn't know you were single. I hope I didn't offend you.

I think it would take a lot more to offend The Nehor, lol.

Maybe like not noticing he has been talking about being single for years.

[thesometimesaint]

35 minutes ago, Calm said:

I think it would take a lot more to offend The Nehor, lol.

Maybe like not noticing he has been talking about being single for years.

I really didn't notice, but we do have some singles on the Board.

[california boy]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

I am curious as to your thought process on this, not judging one  way or another.

If you were in a difficult position such as described above by Nehor, would you choose to lie about the presence of any kids or Jews or remain silent/tell the truth knowing this would likely lead to further searching based on your belief that God can take care of things?

I think there are two different issues.  Yes there are times when a lie may be for the better good.  But in no way do I believe that it is God that is commanding me to lie. I would take that responsibility on myself as a choice I have made. 

[Darren10]

5 hours ago, Duncan said:

I was one the who mentioned Pres. Kimball but took it back because I re-read his talk and couldn't find it again so I think I said I remembered it wrong, but if you think of me as Ingenious, hey I'll take it

You'll take it like an hombre!!! You're muy macho!

 

[Darren10]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

"It is not the dress."

Yeah, there seems to be lots of reasons I am single.

You'd give her an honest answer??? 

/Just kidding

[Darren10]

5 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Lest you think CFR's go unanswered:

• Abraham 2:22 And it came to pass when I was come near to enter into Egypt, the Lord said unto me: Behold, Sarai, thy wife, is a very fair woman to look upon;
  23 Therefore it shall come to pass, when the Egyptians shall see her, they will say—She is his wife; and they will kill you, but they will save her alive; therefore see that ye do on this wise:
  24 Let her say unto the Egyptians, she is thy sister, and thy soul shall live.
  25 And it came to pass that I, Abraham, told Sarai, my wife, all that the Lord had said unto me—Therefore say unto them, I pray thee, thou art my sister, that it may be well with me for thy sake, and my soul shall live because of thee.

I would also say that Christ's command in Matthew could also necessitate a lie in the right circumstance:

• Matt 7:6 ¶ Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

So when a non-member asks about something sacred, say the temple endowment, and we withhold the specifics are we lying by omission or simply following Christ's command?

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Mormonism_and_church_integrity/"Lying_for_the_Lord"

 

 

No.

Entering into God's sōd or "mystery" and learn of his secrets. Anytime one does so and reveals those "mysteries" or "secrets' without his authority would be unde condemnation. We are only divulging that which we are permitted by God.

[Darren10]

5 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

And when the well internet-read critic says "don't you do this in the temple" or "isn't this part of your temple ordinances"?

And we say:
1. Yes - we are honest but reveal something holy as Christ told us not to.
2. No - lie of commission because we know full well they are right.
3. I decline to answer due to sacred nature of things - doesn't that qualify as a lie of omission.

"Lying by omission, otherwise known as exclusionary detailing, is lying by either omitting certain facts or by failing to correct a misconception"
Maybe that applies, maybe not.
I have no issue lying to keep sacred things private.

We are under commandment not to divulge it. If they ask specifically about temple rituals simply say "we are not to talk about that".

[JLHPROF]

18 minutes ago, Darren10 said:

We are under commandment not to divulge it. If they ask specifically about temple rituals simply say "we are not to talk about that".

Obviously I do.
The question is whether witholding information is the same as a lie of omission?

[pogi]

7 hours ago, Five Solas said:

Would you worship a God who commanded lies?

Both are included in the 10 commandments, but which is the more grievous sin, to lie or to kill?

If you would not worship a God who would command a man to lie, surely you would not worship a God that would command a man to kill would you? 

"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven."

 

Edited October 12, 2017 by pogi

[pogi]

6 hours ago, california boy said:

No I would not.

God can take care of things pretty much by Himself without requiring me or any other mortal to break one of the 10 commandments. To think that God needs us to lie for Him diminishes what we think that God has the power to do all by Himself without us mortals being used in an inappropriate way.  

Yet he commanded the Israelite's and others to kill.  

It is not that God doesn't have the power to do all things all on his own - he doesn't need anything from us.  He doesn't need my tithing, etc.  I suspect that is more for my learning and benefit than anything. 

[strappinglad]

In court the witness used to ( still does ?) swear to tell the truth , the whole truth , and nothing but the truth. mfb can correct me , but in so swearing , does the witness not automatically lie?

Review the conversation between God and Adam and Eve and later the one between Satan and the couple. Who lied, who told the whole truth, who obfuscated?

Does it depend on what the definition of ' is ' is ?

[strappinglad]

By the way , in the spirit of helpfulness , I would remind  poll makers that every poll must have a final choice placed which reads ,

" this is a stupid poll " . This unwritten rule was agreed upon years ago and lately has been honored by its omission.

[Five Solas]

2 hours ago, california boy said:

I think there are two different issues.  Yes there are times when a lie may be for the better good.  But in no way do I believe that it is God that is commanding me to lie. I would take that responsibility on myself as a choice I have made. 

Spot on.

I think issues are being conflated on the thread that really should be kept separate--if clarity & understanding are our objective. 

--Erik

[Five Solas]

7 hours ago, Okrahomer said:

This John Piper sermon is quite interesting.  He says "it is possible" that righteous and godly people in extreme situations are "constrained" to lie.  He gives some excellent examples:

Exodus 1, Israelite midwives lied to Pharaoh about killing newborn baby boys.

Joshua 2, Rahab hid the Israelite spies and lied about it.

Someone take a screenshot back on page 1, because this is undoubtedly the first & last time a John Piper quote is getting so many LDS likes.

;0) 

But I'm afraid it may be because they are reading constrained as synonymous with commanded.  As another poster recently observed, separate issues are being conflated on the thread...

--Erik

[Glenn101]

8 hours ago, Five Solas said:

But I wanted to explore the topic further and with the help of a poll on a dedicated thread.  So here we go: Would you worship a God who commanded lies?

If you believe the Old Testament and the God of the Old Testament you have to.

Exodus 3:18
18 And they shall a hearken to thy
voice: and thou shalt come, thou and
the elders of Israel, unto the king of
Egypt, and ye shall say unto him,
The Lord God of the Hebrews hath
met with us: and now let us go, we
beseech thee, three days’ journey
into the wilderness, that we may
sacrifice to the Lord our God.

The intent was to deceive the Egyptians that the Children of Israel were going three days into the wilderness to sacrifice to the Lord when the intent was to leave and never go back.

Then in Exodus 3:22
22 But every woman shall a borrow
of her neighbour, and of her that
sojourneth in her house, jewels of
silver, and jewels of gold, and raiment:
and ye shall put them upon
your sons, and upon your daughters;
and ye shall spoil the Egyptians

Here the Lord is telling the Children of Israel to "borrow" expensive jewelry, etc. from the Egyptians with the explicit purpose to deceive the Egyptians.

Glenn

 

[Glenn101]

7 hours ago, RevTestament said:

jfyi - Abraham did not lie about Sarah who was his half-sister so the poster was wrong. God withholds stuff all the time. That is not lying.

Was that not an attempt to deceive? 

 

[clarkgoble]

If you think there is even one situation where it is the right choice to lie rather than tell the truth then you can't say God can never command you to lie since God can (and should) command you to do what is right. It's not terribly hard to think of contrived situations where it's appropriate to lie. QED.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Five Solas said:

Spot on.

I think issues are being conflated on the thread that really should be kept separate--if clarity & understanding are our objective. 

--Erik

Your argument is this: God won't command to kill because it is against one of the 10 commandments, correct?

You have not really addressed this dilemma:  

If God can command to kill to fulfill his own purposes, why can't he command to lie for the same reason?

[JLHPROF]

53 minutes ago, pogi said:

Your argument is this: God won't command to kill because it is against one of the 10 commandments, correct?

You have not really addressed this dilemma:  

If God can command to kill to fulfill his own purposes, why can't he command to lie for the same reason?

We know God also kills and sometimes commands us to kill.

Can God then lie and command us to lie?

And by that same logic can God commit adultery and command us to commit adultery?

Where is the line?

[kiwi57]

9 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Lest you think CFR's go unanswered:

• Abraham 2:22 And it came to pass when I was come near to enter into Egypt, the Lord said unto me: Behold, Sarai, thy wife, is a very fair woman to look upon;
  23 Therefore it shall come to pass, when the Egyptians shall see her, they will say—She is his wife; and they will kill you, but they will save her alive; therefore see that ye do on this wise:
  24 Let her say unto the Egyptians, she is thy sister, and thy soul shall live.
  25 And it came to pass that I, Abraham, told Sarai, my wife, all that the Lord had said unto me—Therefore say unto them, I pray thee, thou art my sister, that it may be well with me for thy sake, and my soul shall live because of thee.

I would also say that Christ's command in Matthew could also necessitate a lie in the right circumstance:

• Matt 7:6 ¶ Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

So when a non-member asks about something sacred, say the temple endowment, and we withhold the specifics are we lying by omission or simply following Christ's command?

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Mormonism_and_church_integrity/"Lying_for_the_Lord"

 

 

Note that Abraham describing Sarai as his sister was not strictly a lie; rather, it was an evasion. Sarai was his niece (marriages of that kind were common enough then) as well as being his wife, and so describing her as his sister was, as such relationships were routinely described, true.

Also, in the Egyptian literature, the queen was routinely described as "the sister of the god," i.e. the king. It is possible to see Sarai describing herself as Abraham's sister as an oblique claim to royal status.

[kiwi57]

10 hours ago, california boy said:

No I would not.

God can take care of things pretty much by Himself without requiring me or any other mortal to break one of the 10 commandments. To think that God needs us to lie for Him diminishes what we think that God has the power to do all by Himself without us mortals being used in an inappropriate way.  

Incidentally, the commandment isn't "Thou shalt not lie," it is "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour." IOW, what is forbidden is false accusations against another, not lying simpliciter.

[Glenn101]

1 hour ago, clarkgoble said:

If you think there is even one situation where it is the right choice to lie rather than tell the truth then you can't say God can never command you to lie since God can (and should) command you to do what is right. It's not terribly hard to think of contrived situations where it's appropriate to lie. QED.

If I had the choice of telling a lie to save my wife or granddaughter (or anyone else) from a pedophile or rapist or telling the truth and exposing them to danger I would lie without blinking an eye and take my chances with God. I would not care what any earthly person thought of it.

Glenn