Nephi and Laban

[strappinglad]

I going to take something off my ' shelf ' and see if there are any insights from the members of this board. It concerns chapter 4 of 1 Nephi wherein Nephi kills Laban. Nephi gives the reason why Laban must die. Nibley tells the story of one of his students from the Middle east asking why Nephi even hesitated as where he came from it was perfectly justified. I have a book about Eastern customs and the Old Testament and how Westerners must adjust their thinking to accommodate Eastern thinking  etc. I don't have a problem with the reasoning around why Laban had to die. My problem is with why Nephi was the one to do it. Why didn't God do it Himself , you know, a heart attack or some such.? Cutting off the head is such a messy process, blood everywhere, probably on Laban's clothes and armor. CSI would have a field day  . The only reason I can come up with is to inoculate Nephi for his future as he would be fighting a lot. Any other ideas??

[Rivers]

Some have speculated that Nephi was being tested and that he failed the test.

I, however, don't have a problem with an evil person being executed.  So why couldn't God do it himself?  I would also ask why the Israelites in the Old Testament were commanded to  kill the Canaanites?  Why couldn't God do all that himself?

[Stargazer]

It was clearly a test of Nephi's faith and obedience. Abraham was faced with a similar choice, although in his case God didn't intend for him to actually carry it out. 

Was it even necessary for Laban to die? One might argue that he was dead drunk, no immediate threat to Nephi, and taking his clothing, armor and sword to use to get the plates didn't require his death. However, once Laban had woken up to the fact that he had been robbed, and not only that, robbed of the plates and nothing else, he would have known instantly who had done it: Lehi's sons, who had been trying to buy the plates from him, and from whom he had stolen all Lehi's valuables. In short order, a small army would have been heading out to the desert where Lehi and his family were hiding. But with Laban messily dead, in the first place, it would have been quite mysterious who had done it. Surely a drunk and staggering man wandering around Jerusalem at night was in potential danger from thieves in any case, and it might not have been taken past that sad fact. Probably no-one would immediately connect his death to the missing plates -- probably no-one would have so much have noticed they were gone. CSI: Jerusalem would have first checked with the elders with whom Laban had been out carousing with, but those worthies would probably have been dead drunk themselves. Later they would have connected the mysterious disappearance of Zoram with Laban's death, but since Laban's valuable possessions were likely to still be intact, they might have discounted Zoram as a suspect, since nothing was stolen. Perhaps, they might have thought that Zoram had simply found out about Laban's death and taken the opportunity to flee from his servitude.  In short, Laban's death at Nephi's hand was justice at work (since Laban had sent his soldiers to kill Nephi and his brothers), and insurance against retribution from the authorities.

[sheilauk]

Maybe it helped Nephi to value the plates that much more because of what he did to get them and it made him more diligent in protecting them and keeping his own record.  Also, doesn't God generally work through us rather than doing it himself?   He must have a good reason for that. 

[strappinglad]

17 minutes ago, Rivers said:

Why couldn't God do all that himself?

Well, there was the drowning of the Egyptians as well as the aftermath of the 10 plagues. Then there is that whole Flood business, not to mention the priests of Baal.  Sodom  didn't require human assistance . Jericho at least was started with God's help. The evidence is clear that when He wants to , He can terminate with prejudice . Why require Nephi to personally do it?

Sorry, I missed responses while I was typing. Thanks.

Edited September 30, 2017 by strappinglad

[PeterPear]

It was to put the fear into his brothers.

Nephi shows up in Laban's clothing and armor, including the sword of Laban. His brothers recognizing the 'outfit' run for their lives. Nephi calls out, it's me! 

He explains what happened. His three brothers are dumbfounded. You did what? Zoram confirms it for them as a second witness, if you will.

Laman earlier who's complaining about the message from the Angel "the Lord will deliver Laban into your hands" "how can He, when Laban can command fifty?" is having second thoughts about messing with his younger brother who he had just beat with a rod. "Holy cow! Nephi killed Laban!"

Then of course, the symbolism of the sword of Laban, which Nephi later uses as a template when making swords for his people for their defense after arriving in the land of promise.

The same sword seen by Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery in the Hill Cumorah (in New York, sillies) being unsheathed on the table with the inscription "This sword will never be sheathed again until The Kingdoms of this world become the Kingdom of our God and his Christ." Indicating it was a long sword or it was written with small font. I prefer the former.

Thus the sword of Laban, Laban's own sword used to lop off his own head, represents the Justice of God against all who fight against the Lord and his kingdom. That is, if you do so, you'll only destroy yourself.

[Glenn101]

You are asking questions that only God can answer. That may sound like a copout, but it is the only answer that any of us can give and be sure that we are correct. Anything else is speculation, trying to read the mind of God, which thing we cannot do.

I have no idea why the Lord had Nephi do the deed himself, but one thing is certain in this case to me though is that once this act was accomplished there was no turning back. There is no way then that laman and Lemuel would dared come back and live openly at Jerusalem. All of Lehi's sons had been seen by Laban's household and the conflict that arose. They would have been men wanted for murder. I suspect that Ishmael did not actually live in Jerusalem proper because it would have been almost sure death fro those brothers to have been seen back inside that city when trying to persuade Ishmael to join their odyssey.

Glenn

[Calm]

1 hour ago, strappinglad said:

Well, there was the drowning of the Egyptians as well as the aftermath of the 10 plagues. Then there is that whole Flood business, not to mention the priests of Baal.  Sodom  didn't require human assistance . Jericho at least was started with God's help. The evidence is clear that when He wants to , He can terminate with prejudice . Why require Nephi to personally do it?

Sorry, I missed responses while I was typing. Thanks.

One man is a different scenario than a town, whole nation, or world.

Where human assistance can work, he seems to use it primarily.

I agree with Glenn, the only one who can give anything but speculation is God.

Edited September 30, 2017 by Calm

[The Nehor]

It did not have to be that messy. Just make sure the head is going downslope so that the blood runs away from the body. Some blood but not a ton.

I suspect it had to do with keeping the peace. Nephi was already large and intimidating. He also kept the sword of Laban. A good incentive for Laman and Lemuel not to try anything until Lehi was dead and (if you believe as I do that the colonists were absorbed by and dominated another group shortly after landing) they waited until there were more then just a few of them to try anything.

[RevTestament]

6 hours ago, strappinglad said:

I going to take something off my ' shelf ' and see if there are any insights from the members of this board. It concerns chapter 4 of 1 Nephi wherein Nephi kills Laban. Nephi gives the reason why Laban must die. Nibley tells the story of one of his students from the Middle east asking why Nephi even hesitated as where he came from it was perfectly justified. I have a book about Eastern customs and the Old Testament and how Westerners must adjust their thinking to accommodate Eastern thinking  etc. I don't have a problem with the reasoning around why Laban had to die. My problem is with why Nephi was the one to do it. Why didn't God do it Himself , you know, a heart attack or some such.? Cutting off the head is such a messy process, blood everywhere, probably on Laban's clothes and armor. CSI would have a field day  . The only reason I can come up with is to inoculate Nephi for his future as he would be fighting a lot. Any other ideas??

Nephi was justified in killing Laban under the Mosaic law. He had not only stolen basically all their wealth, but then attempted to murder them - an offense punishable with death. The judgments of the Mosaic law were carried out by men - it was they who killed criminals when it was required under the law. So it served the purpose of seeing if Nephi would follow the law even if he found it distasteful.

[thesometimesaint]

While I believe it was justified it certainly haunted Nephi for a long time afterwards.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Nephi was justified in killing Laban under the Mosaic law. He had not only stolen basically all their wealth, but then attempted to murder them - an offense punishable with death. The judgments of the Mosaic law were carried out by men - it was they who killed criminals when it was required under the law. So it served the purpose of seeing if Nephi would follow the law even if he found it distasteful.

He would as leader possibly be sending men out to kill todefend his people.  Probably important to know the personal cost.  Perhaps it led to less bloodshed or less enthusiasm in the wars on both sides.

[CV75]

9 hours ago, strappinglad said:

I going to take something off my ' shelf ' and see if there are any insights from the members of this board. It concerns chapter 4 of 1 Nephi wherein Nephi kills Laban. Nephi gives the reason why Laban must die. Nibley tells the story of one of his students from the Middle east asking why Nephi even hesitated as where he came from it was perfectly justified. I have a book about Eastern customs and the Old Testament and how Westerners must adjust their thinking to accommodate Eastern thinking  etc. I don't have a problem with the reasoning around why Laban had to die. My problem is with why Nephi was the one to do it. Why didn't God do it Himself , you know, a heart attack or some such.? Cutting off the head is such a messy process, blood everywhere, probably on Laban's clothes and armor. CSI would have a field day  . The only reason I can come up with is to inoculate Nephi for his future as he would be fighting a lot. Any other ideas??

God typically works through His servants, except in cases such as D&C 43:25 and 88:90. A form of delegation, I suppose! and He may even instruct those with the sealing power  to command the elements.

8 hours ago, strappinglad said:

Well, there was the drowning of the Egyptians as well as the aftermath of the 10 plagues. Then there is that whole Flood business, not to mention the priests of Baal.  Sodom  didn't require human assistance . Jericho at least was started with God's help. The evidence is clear that when He wants to , He can terminate with prejudice . Why require Nephi to personally do it?

Sorry, I missed responses while I was typing. Thanks.

Same here -- He accomplished most of these these things through His servants. And even in the case of using the "natural" elements there may have been an anonymous servant using the keys as Nephi did with the sealing power (Helaman 10 and 11).

Edited September 30, 2017 by CV75

[Benjamin McGuire]

Strappinglad,

Have you read my essay in the Journal of Book of Mormon Studies:

https://publications.mi.byu.edu/publications/jbms/18/1/S00004-5074648ca9094McGuire.pdf

My position is that while we can discuss the narrative in the way you do (and Nibley did) in a sort of isolated way, it is just as important, if not more so, to discuss why Nephi includes this episode in his narrative (especially when he leaves so many narratives out). In identifying this narrative as a deliberate parallel to an Old Testament narrative, Nephi is trying to have his record say very specific things - things which have little to do with our modern insistence on turning this narrative into some sort of object lesson about obedience. So one thing that Nephi is trying to do is to produce a narrative that explains the dynastic shift (both to his brothers and to their collective descendants), justifying Nephi's right to be made king. These are the kinds of things that we would expect from a text written decades after the events they describe. At any rate, have a look through the essay - it's not terribly long (and as I recall, not as technical as some of my more recent material).

[Atheist Mormon]

14 hours ago, strappinglad said:

I going to take something off my ' shelf ' and see if there are any insights from the members of this board. It concerns chapter 4 of 1 Nephi wherein Nephi kills Laban. Nephi gives the reason why Laban must die. Nibley tells the story of one of his students from the Middle east asking why Nephi even hesitated as where he came from it was perfectly justified. I have a book about Eastern customs and the Old Testament and how Westerners must adjust their thinking to accommodate Eastern thinking  etc. I don't have a problem with the reasoning around why Laban had to die. My problem is with why Nephi was the one to do it. Why didn't God do it Himself , you know, a heart attack or some such.? Cutting off the head is such a messy process, blood everywhere, probably on Laban's clothes and armor. CSI would have a field day  . The only reason I can come up with is to inoculate Nephi for his future as he would be fighting a lot. Any other ideas??

That is nothing, if you have an issue with that moral dilemma scenario and NOT with the OT (especially Genesis) you.......are OK in your belief.

[strappinglad]

For some reason, Benjamin, your link just brings up a blank page for me . The top of the page says ' reader ' and then zip.

[Calm]

It comes up fine for me.

Is your tech old?  I think they recently updated the site.

[strappinglad]

windows 10 using internet explorer . I just went to google chrome and up it came , thanks.

Edited September 30, 2017 by strappinglad

[Calm]

1 minute ago, strappinglad said:

windows 10 using internet explorer .

I use safari, so no help there.

[Robert F. Smith]

On 9/29/2017 at 9:58 PM, strappinglad said:

.................................................Why didn't God do it Himself , you know, a heart attack or some such.? Cutting off the head is such a messy process, blood everywhere, probably on Laban's clothes and armor. CSI would have a field day  . The only reason I can come up with is to inoculate Nephi for his future as he would be fighting a lot. Any other ideas??

 

On 9/29/2017 at 10:21 PM, Rivers said:

...............................................

I, however, don't have a problem with an evil person being executed.  So why couldn't God do it himself?  I would also ask why the Israelites in the Old Testament were commanded to  kill the Canaanites?  Why couldn't God do all that himself?

David killed Goliath and then cut off his head with his own sword.  Beowulf cut off the head of Grendel.  Sir Lancelot beheads both Sir Turquine and Sir Phelot.  Judith cuts off the head of Holofernes, and Jael does the same to Sisera.  Sinuhe cuts off the head of a formidable opponent with his own battle-ax.  In 327 B.C., when he refused to end the Bactrian War, Spitamenes’ wife cut off his head while he slept and then took it to the tent of Alexander the Great. 

[PeterPear]

On 9/30/2017 at 9:58 AM, Benjamin McGuire said:

Strappinglad,

Have you read my essay in the Journal of Book of Mormon Studies:

https://publications.mi.byu.edu/publications/jbms/18/1/S00004-5074648ca9094McGuire.pdf

My position is that while we can discuss the narrative in the way you do (and Nibley did) in a sort of isolated way, it is just as important, if not more so, to discuss why Nephi includes this episode in his narrative (especially when he leaves so many narratives out). In identifying this narrative as a deliberate parallel to an Old Testament narrative, Nephi is trying to have his record say very specific things - things which have little to do with our modern insistence on turning this narrative into some sort of object lesson about obedience. So one thing that Nephi is trying to do is to produce a narrative that explains the dynastic shift (both to his brothers and to their collective descendants), justifying Nephi's right to be made king. These are the kinds of things that we would expect from a text written decades after the events they describe. At any rate, have a look through the essay - it's not terribly long (and as I recall, not as technical as some of my more recent material).

Benjamin's .pdf link works. iPad 4, iOS 10, Safari browser.

I think it's far-fetched to claim Nephi wrote this event in his record, in his smaller plates that deal more with spiritual matters (than in his larger plates which dealt more with secular matters-as described in the Book of Mormon) - to produce a narrative "that explains the dynastic shift justifying Nephi's right to be made king."

Yeah right.

Must have been a slow day and over-creativity was used when the publication deadline arrived. 

Especially, when the article correctly states Nephi had no desire to be made King. Thus the article contradicts itself and the Book of Mormon.

The Angel of the Lord stated Nephi would be made a ruler over his brethren, not a King. (Being made a King is what his people later wanted because he had been thier spiritual ruler, their Prophet. Nephi didn't have to justify that.)

As well as the Angel stating the Lord would deliver Laban into their hands- the Angel was addressing Laman and Lemuel rebuking them for their lack of faith then stating the Lord would help them fulfill the command He gave to them.

This was a spiritual account: An Angel, reaffirming their father Lehi's command from the Lord, that they should return to get the plates. And Nephi, with no guile justifying his being made "King", was merely recording this event for his people.

But give a simple Book of Mormon event to a scholar and one is lead down a rabbit hole.

Edited October 1, 2017 by PeterPear

[strappinglad]

There is something so final, so gruesome, so intimidating , so symbolic  about a beheading.

[The Mean Farmer]

On 9/30/2017 at 5:03 AM, RevTestament said:

Nephi was justified in killing Laban under the Mosaic law. He had not only stolen basically all their wealth, but then attempted to murder them - an offense punishable with death. The judgments of the Mosaic law were carried out by men - it was they who killed criminals when it was required under the law. So it served the purpose of seeing if Nephi would follow the law even if he found it distasteful.

 

This is correct.  Both offenses are punishable by death under the Mosaic law.  Especially from a church leader!!!!

 

Additionally, even at this point there STILL could have been some conjecture or options for all or part of Lehis family to return and try to live back in Jerusalem. 

 

Upon returning to their family a couple hundred miles away from the city they were now:

• Pennyless  -  After their altercations with Laban it would become common knowledge that Lehis family was gone and dared not come back.  Whatever was left behind in the way of homes, possessions, flocks, herds etc...  would fall to local thieves.
• Homeless   -  See above
• Robbers -  An outsider coming into the city to wreck havoc, steal possessions and take them away.
• Murderers - Laban
• Kidnappers - Zoram

 

The Lord arranged this scenario to ingrain in the minds and hearts of Lehis family that they are NOT, under ANY circumstances, going back to live in Jerusalem.   EVER.  If they did they truly had NOTHING to return to except charges of being robbers, murders, thieves, a prophet no one wanted to listen to anyway, and kidnappers. 

No wonder they offered sin offerings upon their return!!!

Edited October 2, 2017 by The Mean Farmer
grammar