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Catholic Practice of "Filial Correction" Implemented (first time since 1333!)


smac97

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Posted

Could this cause a schism in the Catholic church?  I have little experience with this but I know of many Catholics who seem to adore the teachings of Pope Francis, and many who don't.  If both sides dig in their heels, could it cause trouble?

Posted
10 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

That God loves all including the Gays.

I have not heard anyone in the Catholic Church suggest that God does not love gays. Do you know where and when this has been taught in recent history? I do know that many evangelical churches have made such statements, especially Westboro Baptists. God, and his Church and the scripture teach that (too paraphrase) "...he loves all, but hates sin, not the sinner". This applies to any sin, it is not limited to a single sin. 

Posted
1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Could this cause a schism in the Catholic church?  I have little experience with this but I know of many Catholics who seem to adore the teachings of Pope Francis, and many who don't.  If both sides dig in their heels, could it cause trouble?

Yes bluebell, in my opinion, this could in a way cause a schism. If Pope Francis persists, it seems like the world would recognize as "Catholic" the bishops who followed the one living pope. The news media, by which the world is informed,  would largely fail to understand why a significant minority of Catholics could be compelled to deny his novel teachings.

Posted
2 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

I have not heard anyone in the Catholic Church suggest that God does not love gays. Do you know where and when this has been taught in recent history? I do know that many evangelical churches have made such statements, especially Westboro Baptists. God, and his Church and the scripture teach that (too paraphrase) "...he loves all, but hates sin, not the sinner". This applies to any sin, it is not limited to a single sin. 

SEE https://www.cbsnews.com/news/conservative-catholic-bishops-push-back-against-openness-to-gays/

Posted
49 minutes ago, Calm said:

How in any way does this demonstrate a Catholic teaching or viewpoint that God doesn't love those who are gay?

Thanks cal, to both you and Papa. Traditional Catholicism teaches that without exception, God loves disobedient men along with His obedient creatures. It could be argued that He loves us sinners even more! 

Posted
6 hours ago, 3DOP said:

Yes bluebell, in my opinion, this could in a way cause a schism. If Pope Francis persists, it seems like the world would recognize as "Catholic" the bishops who followed the one living pope. The news media, by which the world is informed,  would largely fail to understand why a significant minority of Catholics could be compelled to deny his novel teachings.

Thanks for being willing to talk about this with us 3DOP.  I appreciate being able to understand the Catholic faith better.  Does the doctrine of papal infallibility allow for a pope that persists in teaching or supporting heresy?  I'm wondering how a schism would play out for those who opposed the pope (if it ever came to that)?

 

Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Thanks for being willing to talk about this with us 3DOP.  I appreciate being able to understand the Catholic faith better.  Does the doctrine of papal infallibility allow for a pope that persists in teaching or supporting heresy?  I'm wondering how a schism would play out for those who opposed the pope (if it ever came to that)?

 

Yes. The doctrine of papal infallibility allows that a pope may support heresy, albeit unofficially, not invoking his authority as pope. The exercise of papal infallibility is almost as rare as the "filial correction" with which this thread started. As for your last question...it would seem to me that a pope who favored heresy would also be the schismatic, as opposed to those who accept the teaching of ALL of his predecessors. But as I said, it seems like the media would present the current bishop of Rome as representing the Catholic Church. It would be too easy for them to ignore everybody who was before, even only eight or ten years ago, who echo unanimity for nearly two thousand years! Who in the 21st Century cares about yesterday? For modern man, today defines what is true and good with little regard for what the recent past says. So who today could care about what was believed a hundred years ago, let alone a thousand or two thousand?

3DOP

Edited by 3DOP
Posted
15 hours ago, 3DOP said:

Thanks for the kind words Smac. Since 800 years can go by before a pope needs to be corrected perhaps it is reasonable that Mormons have not seen the need to make such a correction yet. But even centuries hence, if you should have need, you would have Paul's letter to the Galatians where he is provoked to correct his superior, St. Peter, and publicly for giving scandal. We hold that St. Peter humbly accepted Paul's reprimand. How could an humble man do otherwise? He knew he was wrong about "fearing the circumcision" so much as to refuse to eat with the Gentiles. There is no question that John XXII also heeded the correction that he received.

Rory   

Not a live correction but the Church has publicly retracted BYs Adam-God "doctrine." Of course that was about 100 years after the fact. IMHO I haven't seen any Church free from error so continuing revelation is important.

Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Calm said:

How in any way does this demonstrate a Catholic teaching or viewpoint that God doesn't love those who are gay?

It does not, but it is the narrative that so "want" to believe. As such it is "what", which does a disservice to the truth. Different Faiths have allowed too much of the truth about God's love, and their love for all sinners, myself included. Thereby allowing those who wish to hijack the truth, to get away with it. We need to get back, the truth that all are loved, and "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God". All are loved, by a loving God, different groups or behaviors case people to be angry at Church doctrine. On the groups that feels rejected, they then to hate the Church, so that they reject the Church, and by extension even God. The truth is not convenient, to the case, needed to create a sub-culture. Then from that platform they can then "again define the narrative", and bring together greater numbers to make change, or just make noise.  

Edited by Bill "Papa" Lee
Posted
7 hours ago, Calm said:

How in any way does this demonstrate a Catholic teaching or viewpoint that God doesn't love those who are gay?

Sorry but this doesn't sound all that loving to me.

The document said gays had gifts to offer the church and that their partnerships, while morally problematic, provided homosexual couples with "precious" support. It said the church must welcome divorcees and recognize the "positive" aspects of civil marriages and even Catholics who cohabit.

Several known conservatives who participated in the synod immediately came out against the report. The head of the Polish bishops' conference, Cardinal Stanislaw Gadecki, called it "unacceptable" and a deviation from church teaching.

Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

Sorry but this doesn't sound all that loving to me.

The document said gays had gifts to offer the church and that their partnerships, while morally problematic, provided homosexual couples with "precious" support. It said the church must welcome divorcees and recognize the "positive" aspects of civil marriages and even Catholics who cohabit.

Several known conservatives who participated in the synod immediately came out against the report. The head of the Polish bishops' conference, Cardinal Stanislaw Gadecki, called it "unacceptable" and a deviation from church teaching.

Good night the sometimesaint.

God loves everybody. Does that mean He has to approve of everybody's behavior as well?

Love means that you want the best for someone. I would propose that those who approve of behaviors that violate God's law aren't doing so out of love for their neighbor, but out of despising God's law. It isn't charitable to tell somebody it is okay to do that which is prohibited.

I would further suggest that the Polish Bishop's Conference loves homosexuals who sin as well as heterosexuals who sin. But the Poles are almost alone tss. There are so very few "conservative" Catholics bishops left that you should rejoice. The Polish conference is verily nothing. You win. Poles and other believing Catholics like me lose. Cheer up old man.

Edited by 3DOP
Posted
23 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

I would further suggest that the Polish Bishop's Conference loves homosexuals who sin as well as heterosexuals who sin. But the Poles are almost alone tss. There are so very few "conservative" Catholics bishops left that you should rejoice. The Polish conference is verily nothing. You win. Poles and other believing Catholics like me lose. Cheer up old man.

My parents returned from serving a mission in Warsaw in March (two years). They were very impressed by the deep Catholic faith of the Poles, and for their strong conservatism in doctrine and practice. It's definitely a barrier to success in Mormon missionary work, but it was refreshing to see deep, strong faith backed by works (they said that Church activity among Polish Catholics is much higher than anywhere we have lived in the U.S.).

Posted

I have never been there

1 hour ago, rongo said:

My parents returned from serving a mission in Warsaw in March (two years). They were very impressed by the deep Catholic faith of the Poles, and for their strong conservatism in doctrine and practice. It's definitely a barrier to success in Mormon missionary work, but it was refreshing to see deep, strong faith backed by works (they said that Church activity among Polish Catholics is much higher than anywhere we have lived in the U.S.).

Thanks for the anecdote rongo.

I hold that conservative Catholics like your folks saw in Poland, have more in common with Mormonism, than most people on both sides realize. May God bless your parents for their sacrifice.

Posted
3 hours ago, 3DOP said:

Good night the sometimesaint.

God loves everybody. Does that mean He has to approve of everybody's behavior as well?

Love means that you want the best for someone. I would propose that those who approve of behaviors that violate God's law aren't doing so out of love for their neighbor, but out of despising God's law. It isn't charitable to tell somebody it is okay to do that which is prohibited.

I would further suggest that the Polish Bishop's Conference loves homosexuals who sin as well as heterosexuals who sin. But the Poles are almost alone tss. There are so very few "conservative" Catholics bishops left that you should rejoice. The Polish conference is verily nothing. You win. Poles and other believing Catholics like me lose. Cheer up old man.

I don't  see where the Pope's message does violence to the concept of love sinner, but hate the sin. Not so much the conservative Bishops. I have nothing against Catholic beliefs. In some ways I quite admire them. Long ago, as a young man, I gave serious thought to becoming a Catholic.

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