Popular Post smac97 Posted September 24, 2017 Popular Post Posted September 24, 2017 Wow: Quote Clergy and Lay Scholars Issue Filial Correction of Pope Francis Posted by Edward Pentin on Saturday Sep 23rd, 2017 at 4:00 PM The initiative, the first time such a mechanism has been used since the Middle Ages, accuses the Pope of “propagating heresies” and respectfully asks that he teach the truth of the Catholic faith in its integrity. A group of clergy and lay scholars from around the world have taken the very rare step of presenting Pope Francis with a formal filial correction, accusing him of propagating heresies concerning marriage, the moral life, and reception of the sacraments. Entitled Correctio filialis de haeresibus propagatis, meaning ‘A Filial Correction Concerning the Propagation of Heresies,’ the 25 page letter was delivered to the Holy Father at his Santa Marta residence on Aug. 11. The Pope has so far not responded to the initiative, whose 62 signatories include the German intellectual Martin Mosebach, former president of the Vatican Bank, Ettore Gotti Tedeschi, and the superior general of the Society of St. Pius X, Bishop Bernard Fellay (he learned of the document only after it had been delivered to the Pope and signed it on behalf of the Society). The letter begins by saying that with “profound grief but moved by fidelity to our Lord Jesus Christ, by love for the Church and for the papacy, and by filial devotion toward yourself” the signatories feel “compelled” to take this action “on account of the propagation of heresies.” I was not aware of this concept in the Catholic Church (though I don't feel too bad about my ignorance, since it has been nearly 800 years since it was last used). Quote They cite in particular Francis’ apostolic exhortation on marriage and the family, Amoris Laetitia, and “other words, deeds and omissions.” They accuse the Pope of upholding seven heretical positions about “marriage, the moral life, and the reception of the sacraments” which, they say, has “caused these heretical opinions to spread in the Catholic Church.” The clergy and scholars “respectfully insist” that Pope Francis condemn the heresies that he has directly or indirectly upheld, and that he teach the truth of the Catholic faith in its integrity. The filial correction, the first to be made of a reigning Pontiff since Pope John XXII was admonished in 1333, is divided into three main parts. In the first, the signatories say they have the “right and duty” to issue such a correction. They make clear the doctrine of papal infallibility has not been contradicted as the Pope has not promulgated heretical opinions as dogmatic teachings of the Church, but they maintain that Francis has “upheld and propagated heretical opinions by various direct and indirect means.” The second part deals with the correction itself. Written in Latin, it lists the passages of Amoris Laetitia in which, they argue, the Pope insinuates or encourages heretical positions. ... In the third part, the signatories highlight two causes of this crisis: modernism and the influence of Martin Luther. They argue that the embrace of modernism, which they define as the belief that God has not delivered definite truths to the Church which she must continue to teach in exactly the same sense until the end of time, means that faith and morals become “provisional and subject to revision.” Such thinking, they point out, was condemned by Pope St Pius X. ... See here the full text of the correction, and the list of signatories. This is the sixth major initiative in which both clergy and laity have expressed concerns about the Pope's teaching, particularly emanating from Amoris Laetitia. Despite the repeated pleas and warnings of chaos and confusion, Francis has refused to respond or acknowledge the initiatives which are as follows, in chronological order... I hope the wonderful people in the Catholic Church can sort these things out. Though not without real problems, the Catholic Church makes the world a better place. In the LDS Church, D&C 107 addresses discipline of the Presiding High Priest, but that responsibility lies with the Presiding Bishop, not with the laity. So it seems we do not have a comparable doctrine/practice to the one described above. Thanks, -Smac 6
The Nehor Posted September 24, 2017 Posted September 24, 2017 It works better if you nail them on a church door. 4
thesometimesaint Posted September 24, 2017 Posted September 24, 2017 That God loves all including the Gays.
smac97 Posted September 24, 2017 Author Posted September 24, 2017 37 minutes ago, Judd said: What are the seven heretical opinions? See here (starting, I believe, on page 5). Thanks, -Smac 1
RevTestament Posted September 24, 2017 Posted September 24, 2017 34 minutes ago, The Nehor said: It works better if you nail them on a church door. Sorry, that is just too good.... We'll see if they have to be rescued by some king's guard...
Popular Post 3DOP Posted September 24, 2017 Popular Post Posted September 24, 2017 4 hours ago, smac97 said: Wow: I was not aware of this concept in the Catholic Church (though I don't feel too bad about my ignorance, since it has been nearly 800 years since it was last used). I hope the wonderful people in the Catholic Church can sort these things out. Though not without real problems, the Catholic Church makes the world a better place. In the LDS Church, D&C 107 addresses discipline of the Presiding High Priest, but that responsibility lies with the Presiding Bishop, not with the laity. So it seems we do not have a comparable doctrine/practice to the one described above. Thanks, -Smac Thanks for the kind words Smac. Since 800 years can go by before a pope needs to be corrected perhaps it is reasonable that Mormons have not seen the need to make such a correction yet. But even centuries hence, if you should have need, you would have Paul's letter to the Galatians where he is provoked to correct his superior, St. Peter, and publicly for giving scandal. We hold that St. Peter humbly accepted Paul's reprimand. How could an humble man do otherwise? He knew he was wrong about "fearing the circumcision" so much as to refuse to eat with the Gentiles. There is no question that John XXII also heeded the correction that he received. But I fear for this pope, that he will ignore the lawful pleas of his loving children (Code of Can Law 212, para. 3) to address the confusion he has caused with his apparently novel teachings about the sacrament of marriage. All he has to do is affirm what the church has always taught and deny those who have interpreted him to be overturning the tradition of the church. His two most recent predecessors, John Paul II, and Benedict XVI explicitly affirmed the ancient teaching on marriage. It isn't hard to do. But if he should refuse this correction, are the faithful to follow this pope just because he happens to be alive at the same time as us? Of course not. A dead pope is as authoritative as a living pope, and 263 dead popes far outweigh one that is alive, if the living pope should be so audacious as to depart from the faith of his fathers. Thanks again, Spencer, and be assured that there is no reason for dismay to the believing Catholic. Catholic saints and scholars have given their opinions on the duties of the faithful in the event of such a papacy as we are observing. John Henry Cardinal Newman was a scholar and English convert who attended the First Vatican Council (1870) and who believed in the teaching of papal infallibility as that council promulgated. But he doubted that the time was correct for making the teaching certain. Since 1870, both faithful Catholics and non-Catholic observers have ever since failed to grasp the nuances which give distinct limits to papal infallibility. The same may be said for ecumenical councils, which are also demonstrably not entirely infallible. In hindsight, I agree with Newman. The promulgated doctrine of papal infallibility, while true, has been so misunderstood on all sides, as to have caused harm. In former times, it was much more common for the faithful to be able to be critical of popes if they should misbehave or teach something new. Come what may, it is the Sixteenth Sunday after Pentecost, and in this season dedicated to the reign of the Holy Ghost, who ten days after the Ascension of our Blessed Lord, was manifested on Pentecost, will continue to bring good out of evil to the glory of God the Father, and His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ. Come what may, it cannot but be premature for faithful Catholics to be alarmed or dismayed if we should see the prophecies of both testaments and even Latter-day prophecy (forgive the expression, post apostolic revelation) fulfilled in our own happy times. I would wish to live in no other time or place. My good God has never been more merciful to poor sinners (me). I can't be wringing my hands about things that are certainly allowed by God my Father. My apologies for the ramble...But I haven't seen anything very Catholic for a while and was excited to post tonight. God bless y'all. Rory Rory 5
bluebell Posted September 24, 2017 Posted September 24, 2017 Could this cause a schism in the Catholic church? I have little experience with this but I know of many Catholics who seem to adore the teachings of Pope Francis, and many who don't. If both sides dig in their heels, could it cause trouble?
Guest Posted September 24, 2017 Posted September 24, 2017 10 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: That God loves all including the Gays. I have not heard anyone in the Catholic Church suggest that God does not love gays. Do you know where and when this has been taught in recent history? I do know that many evangelical churches have made such statements, especially Westboro Baptists. God, and his Church and the scripture teach that (too paraphrase) "...he loves all, but hates sin, not the sinner". This applies to any sin, it is not limited to a single sin. 3
CV75 Posted September 24, 2017 Posted September 24, 2017 11 hours ago, smac97 said: Wow: I think this filly needs correction:
3DOP Posted September 24, 2017 Posted September 24, 2017 1 hour ago, bluebell said: Could this cause a schism in the Catholic church? I have little experience with this but I know of many Catholics who seem to adore the teachings of Pope Francis, and many who don't. If both sides dig in their heels, could it cause trouble? Yes bluebell, in my opinion, this could in a way cause a schism. If Pope Francis persists, it seems like the world would recognize as "Catholic" the bishops who followed the one living pope. The news media, by which the world is informed, would largely fail to understand why a significant minority of Catholics could be compelled to deny his novel teachings. 3
thesometimesaint Posted September 24, 2017 Posted September 24, 2017 2 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: I have not heard anyone in the Catholic Church suggest that God does not love gays. Do you know where and when this has been taught in recent history? I do know that many evangelical churches have made such statements, especially Westboro Baptists. God, and his Church and the scripture teach that (too paraphrase) "...he loves all, but hates sin, not the sinner". This applies to any sin, it is not limited to a single sin. SEE https://www.cbsnews.com/news/conservative-catholic-bishops-push-back-against-openness-to-gays/
Vance Posted September 24, 2017 Posted September 24, 2017 God loves all, including the heterosexuals.
Calm Posted September 24, 2017 Posted September 24, 2017 2 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: SEE https://www.cbsnews.com/news/conservative-catholic-bishops-push-back-against-openness-to-gays/ How in any way does this demonstrate a Catholic teaching or viewpoint that God doesn't love those who are gay? 4
3DOP Posted September 24, 2017 Posted September 24, 2017 49 minutes ago, Calm said: How in any way does this demonstrate a Catholic teaching or viewpoint that God doesn't love those who are gay? Thanks cal, to both you and Papa. Traditional Catholicism teaches that without exception, God loves disobedient men along with His obedient creatures. It could be argued that He loves us sinners even more! 2
bluebell Posted September 24, 2017 Posted September 24, 2017 6 hours ago, 3DOP said: Yes bluebell, in my opinion, this could in a way cause a schism. If Pope Francis persists, it seems like the world would recognize as "Catholic" the bishops who followed the one living pope. The news media, by which the world is informed, would largely fail to understand why a significant minority of Catholics could be compelled to deny his novel teachings. Thanks for being willing to talk about this with us 3DOP. I appreciate being able to understand the Catholic faith better. Does the doctrine of papal infallibility allow for a pope that persists in teaching or supporting heresy? I'm wondering how a schism would play out for those who opposed the pope (if it ever came to that)? 1
3DOP Posted September 24, 2017 Posted September 24, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, bluebell said: Thanks for being willing to talk about this with us 3DOP. I appreciate being able to understand the Catholic faith better. Does the doctrine of papal infallibility allow for a pope that persists in teaching or supporting heresy? I'm wondering how a schism would play out for those who opposed the pope (if it ever came to that)? Yes. The doctrine of papal infallibility allows that a pope may support heresy, albeit unofficially, not invoking his authority as pope. The exercise of papal infallibility is almost as rare as the "filial correction" with which this thread started. As for your last question...it would seem to me that a pope who favored heresy would also be the schismatic, as opposed to those who accept the teaching of ALL of his predecessors. But as I said, it seems like the media would present the current bishop of Rome as representing the Catholic Church. It would be too easy for them to ignore everybody who was before, even only eight or ten years ago, who echo unanimity for nearly two thousand years! Who in the 21st Century cares about yesterday? For modern man, today defines what is true and good with little regard for what the recent past says. So who today could care about what was believed a hundred years ago, let alone a thousand or two thousand? 3DOP Edited September 24, 2017 by 3DOP 3
RevTestament Posted September 24, 2017 Posted September 24, 2017 15 hours ago, 3DOP said: Thanks for the kind words Smac. Since 800 years can go by before a pope needs to be corrected perhaps it is reasonable that Mormons have not seen the need to make such a correction yet. But even centuries hence, if you should have need, you would have Paul's letter to the Galatians where he is provoked to correct his superior, St. Peter, and publicly for giving scandal. We hold that St. Peter humbly accepted Paul's reprimand. How could an humble man do otherwise? He knew he was wrong about "fearing the circumcision" so much as to refuse to eat with the Gentiles. There is no question that John XXII also heeded the correction that he received. Rory Not a live correction but the Church has publicly retracted BYs Adam-God "doctrine." Of course that was about 100 years after the fact. IMHO I haven't seen any Church free from error so continuing revelation is important.
Guest Posted September 24, 2017 Posted September 24, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, Calm said: How in any way does this demonstrate a Catholic teaching or viewpoint that God doesn't love those who are gay? It does not, but it is the narrative that so "want" to believe. As such it is "what", which does a disservice to the truth. Different Faiths have allowed too much of the truth about God's love, and their love for all sinners, myself included. Thereby allowing those who wish to hijack the truth, to get away with it. We need to get back, the truth that all are loved, and "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God". All are loved, by a loving God, different groups or behaviors case people to be angry at Church doctrine. On the groups that feels rejected, they then to hate the Church, so that they reject the Church, and by extension even God. The truth is not convenient, to the case, needed to create a sub-culture. Then from that platform they can then "again define the narrative", and bring together greater numbers to make change, or just make noise. Edited September 25, 2017 by Bill "Papa" Lee
thesometimesaint Posted September 25, 2017 Posted September 25, 2017 7 hours ago, Calm said: How in any way does this demonstrate a Catholic teaching or viewpoint that God doesn't love those who are gay? Sorry but this doesn't sound all that loving to me. The document said gays had gifts to offer the church and that their partnerships, while morally problematic, provided homosexual couples with "precious" support. It said the church must welcome divorcees and recognize the "positive" aspects of civil marriages and even Catholics who cohabit. Several known conservatives who participated in the synod immediately came out against the report. The head of the Polish bishops' conference, Cardinal Stanislaw Gadecki, called it "unacceptable" and a deviation from church teaching.
3DOP Posted September 26, 2017 Posted September 26, 2017 (edited) 22 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: Sorry but this doesn't sound all that loving to me. The document said gays had gifts to offer the church and that their partnerships, while morally problematic, provided homosexual couples with "precious" support. It said the church must welcome divorcees and recognize the "positive" aspects of civil marriages and even Catholics who cohabit. Several known conservatives who participated in the synod immediately came out against the report. The head of the Polish bishops' conference, Cardinal Stanislaw Gadecki, called it "unacceptable" and a deviation from church teaching. Good night the sometimesaint. God loves everybody. Does that mean He has to approve of everybody's behavior as well? Love means that you want the best for someone. I would propose that those who approve of behaviors that violate God's law aren't doing so out of love for their neighbor, but out of despising God's law. It isn't charitable to tell somebody it is okay to do that which is prohibited. I would further suggest that the Polish Bishop's Conference loves homosexuals who sin as well as heterosexuals who sin. But the Poles are almost alone tss. There are so very few "conservative" Catholics bishops left that you should rejoice. The Polish conference is verily nothing. You win. Poles and other believing Catholics like me lose. Cheer up old man. Edited September 26, 2017 by 3DOP
rongo Posted September 26, 2017 Posted September 26, 2017 23 minutes ago, 3DOP said: I would further suggest that the Polish Bishop's Conference loves homosexuals who sin as well as heterosexuals who sin. But the Poles are almost alone tss. There are so very few "conservative" Catholics bishops left that you should rejoice. The Polish conference is verily nothing. You win. Poles and other believing Catholics like me lose. Cheer up old man. My parents returned from serving a mission in Warsaw in March (two years). They were very impressed by the deep Catholic faith of the Poles, and for their strong conservatism in doctrine and practice. It's definitely a barrier to success in Mormon missionary work, but it was refreshing to see deep, strong faith backed by works (they said that Church activity among Polish Catholics is much higher than anywhere we have lived in the U.S.).
3DOP Posted September 26, 2017 Posted September 26, 2017 I have never been there 1 hour ago, rongo said: My parents returned from serving a mission in Warsaw in March (two years). They were very impressed by the deep Catholic faith of the Poles, and for their strong conservatism in doctrine and practice. It's definitely a barrier to success in Mormon missionary work, but it was refreshing to see deep, strong faith backed by works (they said that Church activity among Polish Catholics is much higher than anywhere we have lived in the U.S.). Thanks for the anecdote rongo. I hold that conservative Catholics like your folks saw in Poland, have more in common with Mormonism, than most people on both sides realize. May God bless your parents for their sacrifice. 1
thesometimesaint Posted September 26, 2017 Posted September 26, 2017 3 hours ago, 3DOP said: Good night the sometimesaint. God loves everybody. Does that mean He has to approve of everybody's behavior as well? Love means that you want the best for someone. I would propose that those who approve of behaviors that violate God's law aren't doing so out of love for their neighbor, but out of despising God's law. It isn't charitable to tell somebody it is okay to do that which is prohibited. I would further suggest that the Polish Bishop's Conference loves homosexuals who sin as well as heterosexuals who sin. But the Poles are almost alone tss. There are so very few "conservative" Catholics bishops left that you should rejoice. The Polish conference is verily nothing. You win. Poles and other believing Catholics like me lose. Cheer up old man. I don't see where the Pope's message does violence to the concept of love sinner, but hate the sin. Not so much the conservative Bishops. I have nothing against Catholic beliefs. In some ways I quite admire them. Long ago, as a young man, I gave serious thought to becoming a Catholic.
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