Establishing Boundaries within the LDS Church

[Five Solas]

Not everyone fits.  That much should be incontestable by now.  And any club can set rules for admission and continuing membership.  That also isn’t up for debate.

The reasons and the tools for maintaining boundaries within the LDS Church and perhaps more broadly in Mormonism—that’s what I’d like this thread to be about.  When should you resign, for reasons of conscience, ethics or other considerations?  And when should someone have their membership revoked or otherwise be disenfranchised?  And when should a member, passively or actively, encourage another member to find a different community with which to associate?

--Erik

PS.  There was a thread about boundaries a while back.  I shared some thoughts, based on my own experience.  Someone even gave me a rep point!  But then my little post got deleted, because someone else got offended (doubtless someone much worthier than I).  Or maybe it was because I quoted from a Willie Nelson song (“I Never Cared for You”, going back to 1964)—and quoting Willie always carries risk in these quarters.  But hopefully we’ll make some headway on the topic of boundaries this time.  It's an interesting topic, at least to me. 
:0)

[RevTestament]

Not to me.

[thatjimguy]

Holy Spirit. Use it for all those questions. Everytime. 

Any other answer is too strict for those kinds of questions. (and maybe any question).

[thesometimesaint]

If someone won't go by the Church's rules, maybe it is better to not be a member.

Edited September 10, 2017 by thesometimesaint

[Scott Lloyd]

19 hours ago, Five Solas said:

Not everyone fits.  That much should be incontestable by now.  And any club can set rules for admission and continuing membership.  That also isn’t up for debate.

The reasons and the tools for maintaining boundaries within the LDS Church and perhaps more broadly in Mormonism—that’s what I’d like this thread to be about.  When should you resign, for reasons of conscience, ethics or other considerations?  And when should someone have their membership revoked or otherwise be disenfranchised?  And when should a member, passively or actively, encourage another member to find a different community with which to associate?

--Erik

PS.  There was a thread about boundaries a while back.  I shared some thoughts, based on my own experience.  Someone even gave me a rep point!  But then my little post got deleted, because someone else got offended (doubtless someone much worthier than I).  Or maybe it was because I quoted from a Willie Nelson song (“I Never Cared for You”, going back to 1964)—and quoting Willie always carries risk in these quarters.  But hopefully we’ll make some headway on the topic of boundaries this time.  It's an interesting topic, at least to me. 
:0)

Since it is, as the proper name conveys, the Church of Jesus Christ, it is He who sets the boundaries, draws the perameters, etc. He does it through the instrumentality of apostles, just as originally. 

Edited September 10, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[MiserereNobis]

3 hours ago, Five Solas said:

Or maybe it was because I quoted from a Willie Nelson song (“I Never Cared for You”, going back to 1964)—and quoting Willie always carries risk in these quarters.

I just started a thread about "A Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief." That's pretty close to the traditional song "Poor Wayfaring Stranger" that was covered by Johnny Cash, an outlaw country man like Willie. Willie ain't so much a stranger here.

I know there are folks here that love such music

 

[Darren10]

2 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

I just started a thread about "A Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief." That's pretty close to the traditional song "Poor Wayfaring Stranger" that was covered by Johnny Cash, an outlaw country man like Willie. Willie ain't so much a stranger here.

I know there are folks here that love such music

 

I love the "Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief" but I do not care much at all for Willie Nelson's music. I do think it's rockin' awesome that he's a 5th degree blackbelt though.

[rpn]

The LDS church doesn't have boundaries that exclude anyone for "not fitting", just for actively encouraging others to adopt their own interpretations of scriptures and refuse to acknowledge the Lord's leadership cadre and their authority on His behalf.

I was very concerned about Denver Snuffer's excommunication for writing a book, and his refusal to withdraw the book because he'd made contractual agreements that would have been breeched and affected others.  But three years later, it is clear that he was already apostate in the full sense of the word when it happened, however much he now preaches to become better disciples of Christ.   Since we are all mortal, the best we can hope for is that decisions are made prayerfully and with inspiration.

Edited September 10, 2017 by rpn

[cdowis]

Snuffer had an interesting way of handling this issue.  "The church went into apostasy when it excommunicated me.  In effect, I excommunicated the entire church and its leadership."

And he found  a sizable group who agreed with him ==>> the true church no longer exists as an organization.  There is no longer a true church consisting as a central organization,  but exists as a group of individuals who individually speak with and get revelations from God.

Do I dare call it, "a priesthood of believers"?  Sounds vaguely familiar.

Edited September 10, 2017 by cdowis

[boblloyd91]

I think the temple recommend questions are a good example of boundaries that are set up in the church to determine who's in good standing and who isn't. If a person feels they can't answer the questions in the affirmative and don't want to get to the point of answering them in the affirmative then perhaps they need to think about their membership.

[rpn]

But if you believe the atonement kicks in with baptism, so as to make one perfect in Christ, why would you ever give up your membership, and how would giving up one's membership ever be helpful to an individual?

[Bobbieaware]

6 hours ago, Darren10 said:

I love the "Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief" but I do not care much at all for Willie Nelson's music. I do think it's rockin' awesome that he's a 5th degree blackbelt though.

Willie Nelson looks too burned-out and decrepit to have a 5th degree black belt.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, rpn said:

But if you believe the atonement kicks in with baptism, so as to make one perfect in Christ, why would you ever give up your membership, and how would giving up one's membership ever be helpful to an individual?

Because breaking those made covenants is worse then not making them. In some cases withdrawing the covenant is a mercy.

[ALarson]

45 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

Willie Nelson looks too burned-out and decrepit to have a 5th degree black belt.

Well he is 84 years old (81 when he received his 5th degree black belt).  Pretty amazing, IMO.

http://time.com/81530/willie-nelson-black-belt/

[Robert F. Smith]

53 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

Willie Nelson looks too burned-out and decrepit to have a 5th degree black belt.

Same thing happened to Elvis.  We all get old and decrepit, eventually.  Still Willie had some great advice:  

 

[Darren10]

52 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

Willie Nelson looks too burned-out and decrepit to have a 5th degree black belt.

He does have the face of an old hippie, that's for sure. And, there isn't any video out there showing him actually practicing his skill.

[Tacenda]

28 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Well he is 84 years old (81 when he received his 5th degree black belt).  Pretty amazing, IMO.

http://time.com/81530/willie-nelson-black-belt/

I luckily saw his concert in Texas in July. He came to Utah in August and the altitude caused him to cancel after only one song, I wasn't there but heard about it on the news. In Texas he struggled even then, hopefully he'll rebound. Or just enjoy life!

Didn't know he got a 5th degree black belt at 81, wow!!

[Bobbieaware]

1 hour ago, ALarson said:

Well he is 84 years old (81 when he received his 5th degree black belt).  Pretty amazing, IMO.

http://time.com/81530/willie-nelson-black-belt/

I don't want to believe it! Tell me it isn't so! But if it is so, perhaps he's a master of a an ancient marshal arts discipline that involves the consumption of cannabis to "inspire" a spirit of serenity in the face of conflict?

Edited September 10, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[thesometimesaint]

Got to do something with all the munchies pot induces.

[rpn]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Because breaking those made covenants is worse then not making them. In some cases withdrawing the covenant is a mercy.

There is no way that mere mortals can know what another's capacity is:  God, OTOH, does, plus also a person's heart.    I've heard this argument before, but I just don't see its validity.

[Vance]

Any "church" that doesn't set boundaries on human behavior is not a church at all, but a useless organization.

[Five Solas]

Okay, seeing as how this is in danger of becoming the Willie Nelson appreciation thread (not that there’d be anything wrong with that)—let me try to get this back & prime the pump a little.  
I’ll share a story from early in the previous decade in one of the University of Washington affiliated YSA wards I was a part of--

A fellow starting visiting our ward.  He had a pretty unpleasant demeanor.  He didn’t smell too good.  He’d occasionally bump into people and make no apology.  And he was too old to be there (you typically got the boot on your 31st birthday—perhaps an example of “active” encouragement I mentioned in my OP).  But our bishop befriended him, gave him some modest financial support.  Worth noting our bishop wasn’t the typical LDS bishop (aren’t at least half of them dentists/orthodontists?).  He was an adult convert who otherwise had no connection to Utah.  He also ran a large, leading-edge technical research team for the UW that drew talent from all over the world.

At the time a lot of us wished this fellow would just find another place to hang out on Sundays and few (if any) made an effort to help him fit in (an example of “passive” encouragement I mentioned in my OP).  He made things really uncomfortable.  He’d repay the bishop’s generosity by sitting on the institute steps facing 15th Ave NE after church, and enjoy a cigarette.  How self-righteous many of us felt, and what a fool our bishop was being for subsidizing tobacco consumption (with our hard-earned money!).

Now, does it change the story if I mention he was also blind and walked with a cane?  Well, it didn’t much for us at the time.

After a while he did move on.  I’d see him in the U-District neighborhood on occasion.  Then after a couple more years I didn’t see him anymore.  Active & passive—yeah, I think we had all the elements.  And whatever else may be said, the boundary was preserved.

What do folks think?  An unlikely story?  Or one that hits close to home?

--Erik

_____________________________________________________

The sun is filled with ice and gives no warmth at all
And the sky was never blue
The stars are raindrops searching for a place to fall
And I never cared for you

--Willie Nelson, 1964

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, rpn said:

There is no way that mere mortals can know what another's capacity is:  God, OTOH, does, plus also a person's heart.    I've heard this argument before, but I just don't see its validity.

I can tell how badly certain people are blatantly breaking their covenants.

[smac97]

20 hours ago, Five Solas said:

Not everyone fits. 

Nope.  While membership is available for the entirety of the family of man, actually joining the Church requires a commitment to certain conditions in terms of belief and behavior.  

Quote

And any club can set rules for admission and continuing membership.  That also isn’t up for debate.

Correct.  The Church claims to be much, much more than a "club."  

Quote

The reasons and the tools for maintaining boundaries within the LDS Church and perhaps more broadly in Mormonism—that’s what I’d like this thread to be about. 

The conditions for membership are not arbitrary, nor are intended to be exclusionary.  Instead, they are designed to facilitate the mission of the Church, which is to help the sons and daughters of God progress and improve.  Alma 5 is apt:

Quote

57 And now I say unto you, all you that are desirous to follow the voice of the good shepherd, come ye out from the wicked, and be ye separate, and touch not their unclean things; and behold, their names shall be blotted out, that the names of the wicked shall not be numbered among the names of the righteous, that the word of God may be fulfilled, which saith: The names of the wicked shall not be mingled with the names of my people;

58 For the names of the righteous shall be written in the book of life, and unto them will I grant an inheritance at my right hand. And now, my brethren, what have ye to say against this?

Agency is at the core of this question.  Nobody will ever be compelled to have their names "written in the book of life."

20 hours ago, Five Solas said:

When should you resign, for reasons of conscience, ethics or other considerations? 

There is no pat answer to that question.  From the perspective of a devoted Latter-day Saint, I would say resignation is never appropriate for those who seek the blessings of exaltation.  D&C 76:50-70 speaks to this issue.  It speaks of those who "received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized," who kept the commandments, who "overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise," who "are the church of the Firstborn," who have "overcome all things," who "are they whom he shall bring with him, when he shall come in the clouds of heaven to reign on the earth over his people," who "shall have part in the first resurrection," who "shall come forth in the resurrection of the just," who "are come unto Mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly place, the holiest of all," who "are they into whose hands the Father has given all things," who "shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever," whose names "are written in heaven, where God and Christ are the judge of all," who "are just men made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant."

Joining the LDS Church is part of this, as is "enduring to the end."  Resignation, then, operates to suspend one's progress in all these things.  It is the equivalent of excommunication.  It is the equivalent of having one's name "blotted out" from the Book of Life.  Consider Alma 5:57:

Quote

57 And now I say unto you, all you that are desirous to follow the voice of the good shepherd, come ye out from the wicked, and be ye separate, and touch not their unclean things; and behold, their names shall be blotted out, that the names of the wicked shall not be numbered among the names of the righteous...

And Alma 26:

Quote

34 And it came to pass that Alma went and judged those that had been taken in iniquity, according to the word of the Lord.

35 And whosoever repented of their sins and did confess them, them he did number among the people of the church;

36 And those that would not confess their sins and repent of their iniquity, the same were not numbered among the people of the church, and their names were blotted out.

And Alma 1:

Quote

21 Now there was a strict law among the people of the church, that there should not any man, belonging to the church, arise and persecute those that did not belong to the church, and that there should be no persecution among themselves.

22 Nevertheless, there were many among them who began to be proud, and began to contend warmly with their adversaries, even unto blows; yea, they would smite one another with their fists.

23 Now this was in the second year of the reign of Alma, and it was a cause of much affliction to the church; yea, it was the cause of much trial with the church.

24 For the hearts of many were hardened, and their names were blotted out, that they were remembered no more among the people of God. And also many withdrew themselves from among them.

And Alma 6:

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1 And now it came to pass that after Alma had made an end of speaking unto the people of the church, which was established in the city of Zarahemla, he ordained priests and elders, by laying on his hands according to the order of God, to preside and watch over the church.

2 And it came to pass that whosoever did not belong to the church who repented of their sins were baptized unto repentance, and were received into the church.

3 And it also came to pass that whosoever did belong to the church that did not repent of their wickedness and humble themselves before God—I mean those who were lifted up in the pride of their hearts—the same were rejected, and their names were blotted out, that their names were not numbered among those of the righteous.

And Moroni 6:

Quote

5 And the church did meet together oft, to fast and to pray, and to speak one with another concerning the welfare of their souls.

6 And they did meet together oft to partake of bread and wine, in remembrance of the Lord Jesus.

7 And they were strict to observe that there should be no iniquity among them; and whoso was found to commit iniquity, and three witnesses of the church did condemn them before the elders, and if they repented not, and confessed not, their names were blotted out, and they were not numbered among the people of Christ.

The consequence of resignation, which is equivalent to excommunication, is severe.  Per D&C 85:

Quote

11 And they who are of the High Priesthood, whose names are not found written in the book of the law, or that are found to have apostatized, or to have been cut off from the church, as well as the lesser priesthood, or the members, in that day shall not find an inheritance among the saints of the Most High.

So in the LDS paradigm, resignation would seemingly never be the right thing to do.  Outside that paradigm, I suppse, any reason or no reason at all is sufficient grounds.

20 hours ago, Five Solas said:

And when should someone have their membership revoked or otherwise be disenfranchised?

The scriptural parameters for excommunication are fairly well-established:

• D&C 50:8-9 - "But the hypocrites shall be detected and shall be cut off, either in life or in death, even as I will; and wo unto them who are cut off from my church, for the same are overcome of the world. Wherefore, let every man beware lest he do that which is not in truth and righteousness before me."
• D&C 64:34-37 - "Behold, the Lord requireth the heart and a willing mind; and the willing and obedient shall eat the good of the land of Zion in these last days. And the rebellious shall be cut off out of the land of Zion, and shall be sent away, and shall not inherit the land. For, verily I say that the rebellious are not of the blood of Ephraim, wherefore they shall be plucked out. Behold, I, the Lord, have made my church in these last days like unto a judge sitting on a hill, or in a high place, to judge the nations."
• D&C 104:6-10 - "For I, the Lord, am not to be mocked in these things. And all this that the innocent among you may not be condemned with the unjust; and that the guilty among you may not escape; because I, the Lord, have promised unto you a crown of glory at my right hand. Therefore, inasmuch as you are found transgressors, you cannot escape my wrath in your lives. Inasmuch as ye are cut off for transgression, ye cannot escape the buffetings of Satan until the day of redemption. And I now give unto you power from this very hour, that if any man among you, of the order, is found a transgressor and repenteth not of the evil, that ye shall deliver him over unto the buffetings of Satan; and he shall not have power to bring evil upon you."
• D&C 51:1-2 - "Hearken unto me, saith the Lord your God, and I will speak unto my servant Edward Partridge, and give unto him directions; for it must needs be that he receive directions how to organize this people. For it must needs be that they be organized according to my laws; if otherwise, they will be cut off."
• D&C 63:60-64 - "Behold, I am Alpha and Omega, even Jesus Christ. Wherefore, let all men beware how they take my name in their lips. For behold, verily I say, that many there be who are under this condemnation, who use the name of the Lord, and use it in vain, having not authority. Wherefore, let the church repent of their sins, and I, the Lord, will own them; otherwise they shall be cut off. Remember that that which cometh from above is sacred, and must be spoken with care, and by constraint of the Spirit; and in this there is no condemnation, and ye receive the Spirit through prayer; wherefore, without this there remaineth condemnation."
• D&C 133:63 - "And upon them that hearken not to the voice of the Lord shall be fulfilled that which was written by the prophet Moses, that they should be cut off from among the people."
• D&C 85:11 - "And they who are of the High Priesthood, whose names are not found written in the book of the law, or that are found to have apostatized, or to have been cut off from the church, as well as the lesser priesthood, or the members, in that day shall not find an inheritance among the saints of the Most High."
• D&C 1:14 - "And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people."
• D&C 134:10 - "We believe that all religious societies have a right to deal with their members for disorderly conduct, according to the rules and regulations of such societies; provided that such dealings be for fellowship and good standing; but we do not believe that any religious society has authority to try men on the right of property or life, to take from them this world’s goods, or to put them in jeopardy of either life or limb, or to inflict any physical punishment upon them. They can only excommunicate them from their society, and withdraw from them their fellowship."
• Alma 1:24 - "The hearts of many were hardened, and their names were blotted out."
• Helaman 12:25 - "And I would that all men might be saved. But we read that in the great and last day there are some who shall be cast out, yea, who shall be cast off from the presence of the Lord."
• 3 Ne. 18:31 - "If he repent not he shall not be numbered among my people."
• D&C 42:24 - "Adulterers who do not repent shall be cast out."
• D&C 42:28 - "He that sinneth and repenteth not shall be cast out."
• D&C 41:5 - "He that receiveth my law and doeth it, the same is my disciple; and he that saith he receiveth it and doeth it not, the same is not my disciple, and shall be cast out from among you."
• D&C 85:11 - "And they who are of the High Priesthood, whose names are not found written in the book of the law, or that are found to have apostatized, or to have been cut off from the church, as well as the lesser priesthood, or the members, in that day shall not find an inheritance among the saints of the Most High."
• Helaman 12:25 - "And I would that all men might be saved. But we read that in the great and last day there are some who shall be cast out, yea, who shall be cast off from the presence of the Lord."
• 3 Nephi 14:15 - "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."
• D&C 134:10 - "We believe that all religious societies have a right to deal with their members for disorderly conduct, according to the rules and regulations of such societies; provided that such dealings be for fellowship and good standing; but we do not believe that any religious society has authority to try men on the right of property or life, to take from them this world’s goods, or to put them in jeopardy of either life or limb, or to inflict any physical punishment upon them. They can only excommunicate them from their society, and withdraw from them their fellowship."

As a practical matter, here is a list of offenses where excommunication may be appropriate.  I am not sure excommunication is ever an "automatic" thing, but I am open to clarification from others on that point.

20 hours ago, Five Solas said:

And when should a member, passively or actively, encourage another member to find a different community with which to associate?

When should an observant, faithful Latter-day Saint encourage another Latter-day Saint to leave the Church?  I can't think of such a situation.

Thanks,

-Smac

[carbon dioxide]

10 minutes ago, smac97 said:

 

So in the LDS paradigm, resignation would seemingly never be the right thing to do.  Outside that paradigm, I suppse, any reason or no reason at all is sufficient grounds.

 

Unless the goal is for one to purposely take themselves off the straight and narrow path and desire something other than Celestial glory for eternity.  If this is the goal, resigning is a good option to advance one towards their goal.