oops Women

[bluebell]

5 minutes ago, DJBrown said:

I have communicated with many women who feel this way.  My own wife felt this way for many years.  

My wife and I have come to a completely different understanding of gender roles in the temple in the last 3-4 years.  A whole new world opened up to both of us.  And those former worries and concerns about gender differences in the temple are gone.  From our perspective now, there is perfect equity and fairness in the ordinances in the temple.  We just couldn't see it before.  

I wish the temple made it a little easier.  They won't even let women know what promises/blessings are made to men during initiatories.  Most women don't even know they are different than theirs.  It seems like it's set up in a way that hinders understanding between the sexes.

[Jeanne]

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I wish the temple made it a little easier.  They won't even let women know what promises/blessings are made to men during initiatories.  Most women don't even know they are different than theirs.  It seems like it's set up in a way that hinders understanding between the sexes.

I admire your honesty in how you feel. 

[pogi]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I wish the temple made it a little easier.  They won't even let women know what promises/blessings are made to men during initiatories.  Most women don't even know they are different than theirs.  It seems like it's set up in a way that hinders understanding between the sexes.

I don't think this is done to keep women in the dark, and I don't think it is so much that they "won't let women know..." as much as it a matter of lack of necessity or application to them, so there is no need to make it known.  It is not like men know any better what promises/blessings are made to women during initiatories.  It could be equally said that most men don't even know they are different than theirs.  I didn't.  

[juliann]

8 minutes ago, pogi said:

I don't think this is done to keep women in the dark, and I don't think it is so much that they "won't let women know..." as much as it a matter of lack of necessity or application to them, so there is no need to make it known.  It is not like men know any better what promises/blessings are made to women during initiatories.  It could be equally said that most men don't even know they are different than theirs.  I didn't.  

Pogi, I don't think it matters why things are done. I suspect even temple presidents don't know the why of most of it. The point is that women are increasingly becoming alienated because of the differences between men and women that no longer make sense. The temple has periodically adjusted for this in previous decades, I'm sure it will again. But I think we are at a much higher level of discomfort than ever before. What I see is that to many active women are dealing with it by quietly withdrawing from temple attendance.  

[pogi]

46 minutes ago, juliann said:

Pogi, I don't think it matters why things are done. I suspect even temple presidents don't know the why of most of it. The point is that women are increasingly becoming alienated because of the differences between men and women that no longer make sense. The temple has periodically adjusted for this in previous decades, I'm sure it will again. But I think we are at a much higher level of discomfort than ever before. What I see is that to many active women are dealing with it by quietly withdrawing from temple attendance.  

I really don't understand this mind-set.  How are women any more "alienated" then men when it comes to initiatories?  Men are equally in the dark as to what blessings women receive in initiatories, so why is this a woman's issue only?  There is no oppression going on in the temple.  It is not like there is going to be any inequity in the comprehensive endowment of all blessings throughout the eternities.  In the end, aren't we all going to be priests and priestesses, kings and queens?  Or is that difference of the sexes oppressive also?

When it comes to differences, I think the why's do matter.  What if it is God's will and there is good reason for the differences.  Does that not matter?  Would it not be careless to disregard the why's, thinking we know better?  If there is no good reason for the difference and it is not God's will, then I agree, it should be changed.

I don't even know what the differences are in the initiatory blessings, are they worse then the men's blessings, or just different?

Edited September 16, 2017 by pogi

[juliann]

I'm not talking about initiatories, that is only one piece. The next time you go through an Endowment, look at it through a woman's view and what she is seeing and saying.  I don't want to get into specifics here.  If you want to understand, you have to make yourself see what women see. Don't look at Adam as your model, look at Eve. Aside from her first important act, she disappears and we see only men. Imagine a life where you as a man, disappear, while women take over.  Pay attention to the difference in covenants. 

Now this is only a ritualized script but it matters. Also try to imagine sitting at church and looking at almost all women on the stand, girls passing the sacrament while your 10 year old son is asking why he can't,  how would that impact your life as a man over the decades? 

I should add that you don't have to agree with it...or some women's reactions... to understand it.

Edited September 16, 2017 by juliann

[BlueDreams]

39 minutes ago, pogi said:

I really don't understand this mind-set.  How are women any more "alienated" then men when it comes to initiatories?  Men are equally in the dark as to what blessings women receive in initiatories, so why is this a woman's issue only?  There is no oppression going on in the temple.  It is not like there is going to be any inequity in the comprehensive endowment of all blessings throughout the eternities.  In the end, aren't we all going to be priests and priestesses, kings and queens?  Or is that difference of the sexes oppressive also?

When it comes to differences, I think the why's do matter.  What if it is God's will and there is good reason for the differences.  Does that not matter?  Would it not be careless to disregard the why's, thinking we know better?  If there is no good reason for the difference and it is not God's will, then I agree, it should be changed.

I don't even know what the differences are in the initiatory blessings, are they worse then the men's blessings, or just different?

I can see it both ways. The temple has been instrumental in seeing an equity in male and female roles. BUT it wasn't necessarily through the rituals themselves, but chronic studying of said rituals, the scriptural references around them, etc. I see it now as that....but it is with a recognition that the language currently used doesn't immediately show that. Just if, say, the dialogue in the endowment followed more closely the relationship between Adam and Eve that is seen in Moses 5 (ie. post fall dialogue) would make a world of difference. I also feel that it is emblematic of the missing understanding of the role of Mother and subsequently the power given to women. Again, it's not completely absent. With study (at least for me) it can definitely be found, but it takes a lot more work to do so than it probably should. 

I don't know fully the differences in the initiatory blessings. I know enough to say that they're not worse....there's differences though in procedure and a little wording. Most of the wording is basically the same. Beyond that, I can't say much....because temple.

For the record I do think there is reason for the differences but I think the current format does a poor job of indicating those reasons. It's taken me years to have to put together a cognizant explanation to this difference. I think temple changes should be made carefully...but I think this is one that can somewhat cripple women's perspectives of their role and power in the priesthood as queens and priestesses and daughters of a Divine Mother. Part of the problem, of course is that the shift that I see in how these differences are taught may also entail some doctrinal shifts in how we view and interact with HM and women in the priesthood. What I'm suggesting ISN'T OW forms of shifts, but it would entail highlighting doctrines around women in a more power-oriented light and better utilizing women's spiritual gifts and prophetic voices.  

 

Sorry if this is vague. I'm trying to stay out of specific temple ceremony as much as possible. 

With luv,

BD

[Meerkat]

15 hours ago, juliann said:

I'm not talking about initiatories, that is only one piece. The next time you go through an Endowment, look at it through a woman's view and what she is seeing and saying.  I don't want to get into specifics here.  If you want to understand, you have to make yourself see what women see. Don't look at Adam as your model, look at Eve. Aside from her first important act, she disappears and we see only men. Imagine a life where you as a man, disappear, while women take over.  Pay attention to the difference in covenants. 

Now this is only a ritualized script but it matters. Also try to imagine sitting at church and looking at almost all women on the stand, girls passing the sacrament while your 10 year old son is asking why he can't,  how would that impact your life as a man over the decades? 

I should add that you don't have to agree with it...or some women's reactions... to understand it.

I am thinking this post will come across as insensitive because doesn't address the disparity in Temple ordinances (as a male Temple worker, I have been oblivious to them.) My wife and I have never thought to compare notes on the wording.  I'm happy with the fruits of the Gospel in this life and so believe God will be more than merciful to me in the next.  This is a man's view.  I believe my wife would agree, but we will need to have that discussion a little later this morning when I see her. 

I do see the often subservient role women appear to play after Genesis 3. But the decision made in verse 6 is so pivotal to the overall plan, and our existence, that Eve (in my view) carries the deeper influence from that point on-- the power behind the throne. It seems to me that Eve made a thoughtful, deliberate decision to partake and influence Adam to partake. When I think of that, I am overcome with gratitude for Mother Eve.  Whenever I ponder that thought, I am struck by the love and humility with which she prepared the way for Adam to see the necessity of partaking.  

"6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, (consider Eve's thought process here) she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."  

Without both partaking, Eve would have been expelled from the Garden and the plan frustrated.  Of course, I love and admire Adam for his role.  But the greater example of faith and action was Mother Eve, analyzing the irony of the opposing commandments, and taking the fork in the road leading to wisdom and godhood for all who would follow her example. 

This exerpt from Moroni 7 strikes me as a metaphor of Mother Eve's great influence:

"39 But behold, my beloved brethren, I judge better things of you, for I judge that ye have faith in Christ because of your meekness; for if ye have not faith in him then ye are not fit to be numbered among the people of his church.
            40 And again, my beloved brethren, I would speak unto you concerning hope. How is it that ye can attain unto faith, save ye shall have hope?
            41 And what is it that ye shall hope for? Behold I say unto you that ye shall have hope through the atonement of Christ and the power of his resurrection, to be raised unto life eternal, and this because of your faith in him according to the promise.
            42 Wherefore, if a man have faith he must needs have hope; for without faith there cannot be any hope.
            43 And again, behold I say unto you that he cannot have faith and hope, save he shall be meek, and lowly of heart.
            44 If so, his faith and hope is vain, for none is acceptable before God, save the meek and lowly in heart; and if a man be meek and lowly in heart, and confesses by the power of the Holy Ghost that Jesus is the Christ, he must needs have charity; for if he have not charity he is nothing; wherefore he must needs have charity.
            45 And charity suffereth long, and is kind, and envieth not, and is not puffed up, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil, and rejoiceth not in iniquity but rejoiceth in the truth, beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things."

Mother Eve, stepping back and allowing Adam to shine strikes me as the example of ultimate power, teaching as Christ taught. She sometimes holds her silence when falsely accused, as the Savior did.  She draws pictures in the sand while asking questions.  She allows others to take the credit for their epiphanies.

While proud men in history have often warred and enslaved women and other men, it is but a temporary condition in my opinion.  The day will come when all wrongs will be righted, when the first will be last, and the last first.

Edited September 16, 2017 by Meerkat

[bluebell]

16 hours ago, pogi said:

I don't think this is done to keep women in the dark, and I don't think it is so much that they "won't let women know..." as much as it a matter of lack of necessity or application to them, so there is no need to make it known.  It is not like men know any better what promises/blessings are made to women during initiatories.  It could be equally said that most men don't even know they are different than theirs.  I didn't.  

I'm sure it's not, and I never meant to imply that the women are treated differently in that regard.  But I do think that each gender would benefit from understanding how their Heavenly Father views the other gender, and what He expects of them.  

My good friend was dealing with some bad choices of her husband last year, and was really feeling unloved by God, specifically as a woman (because it seemed like the consequences that she was experiencing due to his sins were worse than his consequences).  She was struggling.  Her bishop told her that he wished she could hear the initiatory blessings for the men so that she could know of the special blessings that are offered to women that aren't offered to men.  He thought it would really help her.

But, there was no way for her to legitimately find out what he was talking about.  She didn't have the women's blessings memorized and knew of no man that did either so that they could compare while in the temple.  When she asked if someone could share them with her, like if she could talk to the temple president about it, she was told that it wasn't even appropriate for her to ask to know what the men's blessings were.  

Why?  Why the secrecy on those blessings when we are in the temple?

[bluebell]

15 hours ago, juliann said:

Pogi, I don't think it matters why things are done. I suspect even temple presidents don't know the why of most of it. The point is that women are increasingly becoming alienated because of the differences between men and women that no longer make sense. The temple has periodically adjusted for this in previous decades, I'm sure it will again. But I think we are at a much higher level of discomfort than ever before. What I see is that to many active women are dealing with it by quietly withdrawing from temple attendance.  

For me, a huge part of the problem is that we are left with the apparent differences, which are difficult to understand and internalize as they are presented, with no way to talk about them, learn about why they are there, where they came from, and what they mean for each gender.  Saying "God loves women just as much as men so don't worry about it, it'll all be fair" doesn't help much.  Women are finding going to the temple painful because of these issues, and because we can't talk about them outside of the temple, and because there is no good way to teach about them in the temple, it's kind of like being in no-man's-land.  Stuck in limbo. 

[bluebell]

15 hours ago, pogi said:

It is not like there is going to be any inequity in the comprehensive endowment of all blessings throughout the eternities.  In the end, aren't we all going to be priests and priestesses, kings and queens?  Or is that difference of the sexes oppressive also?

 

Next time you are in the endowment, listen to this part.  Women's promised blessings in this regard are not the same as the men's.  Women are removed from God to a degree that the men are not.  

[Buckeye]

16 hours ago, juliann said:

Pogi, I don't think it matters why things are done. I suspect even temple presidents don't know the why of most of it. The point is that women are increasingly becoming alienated because of the differences between men and women that no longer make sense. The temple has periodically adjusted for this in previous decades, I'm sure it will again. But I think we are at a much higher level of discomfort than ever before. What I see is that to many active women are dealing with it by quietly withdrawing from temple attendance.  

Men too. I'm an attorney. The wording of covenants really matters to me. It chafes me that I covenant to obey God and am offered to be his priest, while my wife covenants to obey me (even though since 1990 she gets a veto right) and is offered to be my priestess. Sister Buckeye doesn't care about the wording much because we don't follow it. But it still bothers me greatly. The endowment is a poorer experience for me because of it. 

[ALarson]

18 hours ago, DJBrown said:

I have communicated with many women who feel this way.  My own wife felt this way for many years.  

My wife and I have come to a completely different understanding of gender roles in the temple in the last 3-4 years.  A whole new world opened up to both of us.  And those former worries and concerns about gender differences in the temple are gone.  From our perspective now, there is perfect equity and fairness in the ordinances in the temple.  We just couldn't see it before.  

I think it's great that you have worked through this together.  However, that does not change the fact that men and women are not treated as equals in the temple.  Pay close attention to the wording next time  and you'll understand more of what we are referring to here.  (You may have already done that and have been able to justify it or have accepted it some how and that's fine too if you have.)  

Edited September 16, 2017 by ALarson

[Buckeye]

19 minutes ago, bluebell said:

For me, a huge part of the problem is that we are left with the apparent differences, which are difficult to understand and internalize as they are presented, with no way to talk about them, learn about why they are there, where they came from, and what they mean for each gender.  Saying "God loves women just as much as men so don't worry about it, it'll all be fair" doesn't help much.  Women are finding going to the temple painful because of these issues, and because we can't talk about them outside of the temple, and because there is no good way to teach about them in the temple, it's kind of like being in no-man's-land.  Stuck in limbo. 

The answer is to talk about them. The prohibition on discussing temple content is cultural, not doctrinal. With few exceptions - the tokens and signs - we can discuss the ordinances and covenants. Heck, even temple clothing is now shown and discussed on the church's website. We should be respectful and honest in discussing temple content, but discuss it we should. That's the solution.

[bluebell]

Just now, Buckeye said:

The answer is to talk about them. The prohibition on discussing temple content is cultural, not doctrinal. With few exceptions - the tokens and signs - we can discuss the ordinances and covenants. Heck, even temple clothing is now shown and discussed on the church's website. We should be respectful and honest in discussing temple content, but discuss it we should. That's the solution.

Until an apostle, prophet, or temple president specifically says that we can talk about the covenants that we make in the temple, I don't think telling people to talk about them is the solution because most people still won't.  I know I won't unless I know for certain that God is o.k. with it, and having anyone but someone in charge of the temple tell me to talk about it doesn't give me that certainty.  

And beyond that, I don't think that a lot of people are capable of talking about this in a way that will bring meaningful resolution for the majority of us.  I don't want to know what so and so's opinion of it is.  I don't want to know how they deal with it or what it means to them. Those things could definitely beneficial, but they still fall short of what i'm seeking. 

And "I don't agree with it so I don't believe it" doesn't work for me either (i'm sincerely fine with it working for other people).  I'm not comfortable making my agreement the standard on whether or not something is of God.  I've got too many weaknesses and far too often judge evil for good and good for evil to be comfortable with that kind of a measuring stick for myself. 

For lack of a better phrase, I'm looking for messengers from my Father to teach me.  I want to hear authoritative counsel and teachings from someone in the know on why the covenant works the way it does in the temple, why it is specifically worded the way that it is.  I want to know what the covenant, as it is written, means for women.  What are it's current implications?  What other things am I missing in my understanding that would help me interpret it differently than I am now?  I don't expect to be spoon-fed, but some authoritative direction, interpretation, and reasons from proper church sources would be nice.  

[Buckeye]

7 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Until an apostle, prophet, or temple president specifically says that we can talk about the covenants that we make in the temple, I don't think telling people to talk about them is the solution because most people still won't.  I know I won't unless I know for certain that God is o.k. with it, and having anyone but someone in charge of the temple tell me to talk about it doesn't give me that certainty.  

And beyond that, I don't think that a lot of people are capable of talking about this in a way that will bring meaningful resolution for the majority of us.  I don't want to know what so and so's opinion of it is.  I don't want to know how they deal with it or what it means to them. Those things could definitely beneficial, but they still fall short of what i'm seeking. 

And "I don't agree with it so I don't believe it" doesn't work for me either (i'm sincerely fine with it working for other people).  I'm not comfortable making my agreement the standard on whether or not something is of God.  I've got too many weaknesses and far too often judge evil for good and good for evil to be comfortable with that kind of a measuring stick for myself. 

For lack of a better phrase, I'm looking for messengers from my Father to teach me.  I want to hear authoritative counsel and teachings from someone in the know on why the covenant works the way it does in the temple, why it is specifically worded the way that it is.  I want to know what the covenant, as it is written, means for women.  What are it's current implications?  What other things am I missing in my understanding that would help me interpret it differently than I am now?  I don't expect to be spoon-fed, but some authoritative direction, interpretation, and reasons from proper church sources would be nice.  

Why would you conclude that God is not okay with discussion of temple covenants? 

And if that's your line, why try to sort of discuss the issue but not say exactly what the covenant is? I see a lot of that on this board and in other conversations with members. Maybe we're cut from different cloths but my preference is to speak clearly and directly about the issue. Do so respectfully and consider all points of view, sure, but I can't effectively discuss something unless I can specify what it is.

Here's one example. Hopefully I don't violate board rules, but in the temple we covenant to obey the law of chastity. Unlike the covenant of obedience, the chastity covenant is the same for men and women. But there's not a lot of details given in the temple about what chastity entails. Many members reasonably ask things like "what about porn" or "what about being alone with the opposite sex at work" or "what does chastity mean in a polygamous relationship"? Lots of fine questions. I find value in discussing them with others (well, except the polygamy ones as thats just speculation). For me, authorities matter, but the greatest authority is the spirit, and it tends to speak loudest when I'm engaged in honest dialogue with God (through prayer) or people I trust.

Dialogue is crucial to growth. That's why I believe there is so much frustration with temple issues. If we can't actually discuss them, the issues just fester, crust over, sag, or explode. (yes, I'm quoting Hughes).

[bluebell]

16 minutes ago, Buckeye said:

Why would you conclude that God is not okay with discussion of temple covenants? 

I don't know if He is or not, and unless I know for sure, I usually err on the safe side.

Quote

And if that's your line, why try to sort of discuss the issue but not say exactly what the covenant is? I see a lot of that on this board and in other conversations with members. Maybe we're cut from different cloths but my preference is to speak clearly and directly about the issue. Do so respectfully and consider all points of view, sure, but I can't effectively discuss something unless I can specify what it is.

I don't usually 'try to sort of discuss the issue.'  There are lots of issues that I do discuss that are related in some way or another, but I don't discuss the specifics of this issue outside of the temple.  As for your other question, from my perspective, it doesn't matter what I would personally like or what kind of cloth I'm personally cut from.  I come at it from a 'it's not mine to tell' angle.  These are the things of God, and from my perspective, He, or His authorized servants, are the ones that say when and where they can respectfully and fully be discussed, not me.  What I want or what I think is easiest is irrelevant.  

Quote

Here's one example. Hopefully I don't violate board rules, but in the temple we covenant to obey the law of chastity. Unlike the covenant of obedience, the chastity covenant is the same for men and women. But there's not a lot of details given in the temple about what chastity entails. Many members reasonably ask things like "what about porn" or "what about being alone with the opposite sex at work" or "what does chastity mean in a polygamous relationship"? Lots of fine questions. I find value in discussing them with others (well, except the polygamy ones as thats just speculation). For me, authorities matter, but the greatest authority is the spirit, and it tends to speak loudest when I'm engaged in honest dialogue with God (through prayer) or people I trust.

I don't know that the chastity covenant can be used as an example for discussing the exact wording and implications of the other covenants.  I'm not saying that it can't, only that I find enough differences in it that I'm not sure.  The law of Chastity is something that we are bound by even before we go to the temple, for example.  It applies to us all, even the unendowed. 

Quote

Dialogue is crucial to growth. That's why I believe there is so much frustration with temple issues. If we can't actually discuss them, the issues just fester, crust over, sag, or explode. (yes, I'm quoting Hughes).

I agree, but like I said before, if something isn't ours to share in the first place, then I don't see that any of that matters.  

[juliann]

5 hours ago, Meerkat said:

 

Mother Eve, stepping back and allowing Adam to shine strikes me as the example of ultimate power, teaching as Christ taught. She sometimes holds her silence when falsely accused, as the Savior did.  She draws pictures in the sand while asking questions.  She allows others to take the credit for their epiphanies.

While proud men in history have often warred and enslaved women and other men, it is but a temporary condition in my opinion.  The day will come when all wrongs will be righted, when the first will be last, and the last first.

I didn't see Eve being given an opportunity to do anything but step back. That was made clear when everyone stopped talking to her. 

You did not do what I asked and I think it is a necessary step before explaining why Eve is expected to step back. Instead of explaining away women's position in life, put yourself in that position as a man. You have described what has been expected of women throughout history. They are expected to sacrifice. Almost everything is put in terms of sacrifice. Usually that will include terms like humility. In Mormonism, even motherhood is talked about in terms of sacrifice while a man's role is talked about in terms of protecting, etc. A man's career, for example, is almost never talked about in terms of a sacrifice, the better it is the more of an accomplishment it is. It is never talked about in terms of what he has to give up. I'm going off on a tangent here but you do kind of have to enter our world before telling us it is all cool. Also, it might not be a good idea to tell someone who is suffering from things that can be changed that their life will be better after they die. ;-) That can take away all hope for the here and now and it might give the impression that you don't care.

Again, walk in a woman's shoes for a minute.

[juliann]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

 

For lack of a better phrase, I'm looking for messengers from my Father to teach me.   

I love that. It is the first time I have heard a woman say that.  

But it comes at a price, this was not something I was tuned into.  Meerkat, this is not Eve stepping back, the men have stepped ahead. She has been excluded by the time "we" turned to "I." 

[Meerkat]

2 hours ago, juliann said:

I didn't see Eve being given an opportunity to do anything but step back. That was made clear when everyone stopped talking to her. 

You did not do what I asked and I think it is a necessary step before explaining why Eve is expected to step back. Instead of explaining away women's position in life, put yourself in that position as a man. You have described what has been expected of women throughout history. They are expected to sacrifice. Almost everything is put in terms of sacrifice. Usually that will include terms like humility. In Mormonism, even motherhood is talked about in terms of sacrifice while a man's role is talked about in terms of protecting, etc. A man's career, for example, is almost never talked about in terms of a sacrifice, the better it is the more of an accomplishment it is. It is never talked about in terms of what he has to give up. I'm going off on a tangent here but you do kind of have to enter our world before telling us it is all cool. Also, it might not be a good idea to tell someone who is suffering from things that can be changed that their life will be better after they die. ;-) That can take away all hope for the here and now and it might give the impression that you don't care.

Again, walk in a woman's shoes for a minute.

Fair comment.  It was my point of view from this male's perspective.   I told you my feelings about women.  I think its generally been harder for women than men across the board. Men tend to receive greater recognition in callings, used to have better educational opportunities, were more fulfilled during the day due to adult conversation.  I think my Mother was pretty typical of her generation.  She worked full time outside the home in the rigorous occupation of a nurse.  She would arrive home an hour after my Dad, (who would be asleep on the couch with a newspaper over his face.)  She would breeze through the house, start the laundry, cook the dinner, prepare a dessert, and make sure the dishes were done.  She was continually exhausted.  On weekends, she would try to get the boys to clean their rooms.  When she couldn't, she would relent and clean them herself.  When we asked her to quit smoking, she would say "These cigarettes are the only friends I have in this house."  She was more right than we realized.  She took care of work, her kids, compassionately cared for her own Mother, served mentally ill children of friends after their parents died.  She was a Saint!

My wife didn't have it so bad.  But it was still unfair, which I believe has been the lot for women through the ages.  Bearing and rausing five children, putting off her hopes and dreams, serving faithfully all those years, even homeschooling our children with a rigorous curriculum and encouraging them through college.  Now, after taking care of my parents until they died, and now her own Mother, she deserves a break.  

I don't know why the serious and labor intensive part of life falls to women.  All I do know is the most consistent examples of Christlike love and service have been women.  By Christlike, I mean unappreciated, persecuted, rejected by their own too often, their hearts have been made to bleed over many a thoughtless word or deed.  Why?  My post was my philosophy of it, that God is fair.  The persecution of women may not change in this life.  But I truly believe that, knowing God is just and balances every wrong with a drop of Christ's blood.

That's all.  It's not fair, but Christ can make it fair, eventually imo.  We must work at it in this life.  But I believe the fairness comes over yonder.

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, Meerkat said:

Fair comment.  It was my point of view from this male's perspective.   I told you my feelings about women.  I think its generally been harder for women than men across the board. Men tend to receive greater recognition in callings, used to have better educational opportunities, were more fulfilled during the day due to adult conversation.  I think my Mother was pretty typical of her generation.  She worked full time outside the home in the rigorous occupation of a nurse.  She would arrive home an hour after my Dad, (who would be asleep on the couch with a newspaper over his face.)  She would breeze through the house, start the laundry, cook the dinner, prepare a dessert, and make sure the dishes were done.  She was continually exhausted.  On weekends, she would try to get the boys to clean their rooms.  When she couldn't, she would relent and clean them herself.  When we asked her to quit smoking, she would say "These cigarettes are the only friends I have in this house."  She was more right than we realized.  She took care of work, her kids, compassionately cared for her own Mother, served mentally ill children of friends after their parents died.  She was a Saint!

My wife didn't have it so bad.  But it was still unfair, which I believe has been the lot for women through the ages.  Bearing and rausing five children, putting off her hopes and dreams, serving faithfully all those years, even homeschooling our children with a rigorous curriculum and encouraging them through college.  Now, after taking care of my parents until they died, and now her own Mother, she deserves a break.  

I don't know why the serious and labor intensive part of life falls to women.  All I do know is the most consistent examples of Christlike love and service have been women.  By Christlike, I mean unappreciated, persecuted, rejected by their own too often, their hearts have been made to bleed over many a thoughtless word or deed.  Why?  My post was my philosophy of it, that God is fair.  The persecution of women may not change in this life.  But I truly believe that, knowing God is just and balances every wrong with a drop of Christ's blood.

That's all.  It's not fair, but Christ can make it fair, eventually imo.  We must work at it in this life.  But I believe the fairness comes over yonder.

Excellent thoughts Meerkat.

For me, and I think for a lot of women, my questions don't often stay too long on the 'it's not fair' end of the spectrum.  I kind of have an 'it is what it is' perspective on that and understand that most of it is a reaction to culture.  Spiritually, I want to understand my purpose better, not so I know better what to do (I don't think that what I should do or shouldn't do would change much) but so I know better who I am in relation to God.  I want to understand my relationship to my Heavenly Father better.  As it stands now, i feel like the temple muddies that.  

All of our church lives we are told that we are sons and daughters of God.  It seems pretty straightforward.  And then we get to the temple and are taught that being a son of God is different from being a daughter of God, not in purpose but in our actual relationship to Him on earth and in eternity.  There is no explanation or interpretation of that.  There's no guidance on processing what that means for us, or how we incorporate that knowledge into our relationship with our Father in Heaven.  The absence of guidance and explanation leaves us distanced from God (literally distanced, if we take the covenant literally) in a way that I don't think women are meant to be.  

[Meerkat]

On 9/15/2017 at 1:50 PM, bluebell said:

I wish the temple made it a little easier.  They won't even let women know what promises/blessings are made to men during initiatories.  Most women don't even know they are different than theirs.  It seems like it's set up in a way that hinders understanding between the sexes.

Generally, I don't think male Temple Workers know there is a difference either.  I never thought about it until this thread.  We just do our work on the men's side.

[bluebell]

5 minutes ago, Meerkat said:

Generally, I don't think male Temple Workers know there is a difference either.  I never thought about it until this thread.  We just do our work on the men's side.

I'm guessing that's probably true.  

[Calm]

"don't know why the serious and labor intensive part of life falls to women"

Probably because there is at least nine months and for societies that don't have the option, an additional two years where they are physically tied to children.  Add the stigma in many cultures for being childless and you have men (who can if they choose walk away without obviously killing their children...who can have children and deny responsibility preDNA)calling the shots.  Traveling for trade or hunting requiring long term absences from home...not a role a mother can easily take on.

While work outside the home has shifted to much more sedentary ways of life for most, housework may be easier given tools like vacuums and hot water from the tap, washing machines, etc, but the huge increase in material possessions adds a huge increase in work as well, so physical housework level has dropped, but not as significantly as farming, caravaning, and hunting to desk, phone, or computer work.

These days women can even farm out pregnancies if they want to go through the discomfort of harvesting eggs so their status is approaching men's in that sense, though now with DNA and long distance law enforcement it is harder for a parent to abandon children and not get caught; it will be interesting to see what happens beyond the current fewer children choice and nannies the more educated and affluent often make.

Edited September 16, 2017 by Calm

[Tacenda]

7 hours ago, bluebell said:

I'm sure it's not, and I never meant to imply that the women are treated differently in that regard.  But I do think that each gender would benefit from understanding how their Heavenly Father views the other gender, and what He expects of them.  

My good friend was dealing with some bad choices of her husband last year, and was really feeling unloved by God, specifically as a woman (because it seemed like the consequences that she was experiencing due to his sins were worse than his consequences).  She was struggling.  Her bishop told her that he wished she could hear the initiatory blessings for the men so that she could know of the special blessings that are offered to women that aren't offered to men.  He thought it would really help her.

But, there was no way for her to legitimately find out what he was talking about.  She didn't have the women's blessings memorized and knew of no man that did either so that they could compare while in the temple.  When she asked if someone could share them with her, like if she could talk to the temple president about it, she was told that it wasn't even appropriate for her to ask to know what the men's blessings were.  

Why?  Why the secrecy on those blessings when we are in the temple?

Makes me think it might have something to do with polygamy in the next life if they don't want women to know. But that's what I do when I don't get the facts up front, start guessing.