oops Women

[Darren10]

22 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

"

Funny you started a thread about women. One of my biggest reasons for quitting Belief altogether was that Scriptures doing horrendous job excluding women from the narrative altogether.  

No, actually, they do a *superb* job "excluding women" from their narrative.

The server seems to be down so I'll later edit to ad the Mornon Interpreter article Mathew Bowen wrote on Abish. It's very fascinating and it embraces the fact that women are rarely mentioned in the scriptures. 

Edited August 24, 2017 by Darren10

[Physics Guy]

Where does this breakdown appear? I couldn't find it on the site.

29 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Utah was first in Educational-Attainment Disparity: FUll weight

but last in the second measure:  Disparity in Advanced Education Attainment: Full weight

46th in Math scores for women

18th in Affordability for Doctor's visits. 

Utah is not among the six states shown as tied for best place in educational attainment equality (bachelor's degree).

[bluebell]

I've looked but haven't seen it. Does the study tell us what year(s) they are getting their data from?  

[thesometimesaint]

9 minutes ago, Darren10 said:

Does "affordability" for a doctor's visit only include out of pocket cost or does it include how mich taxes are used to subsidize healthcare. If any tax cost is involved that very much should be counted toward the cost per person to visit a doctor. 

Add in Health Insurance. If any health insurance is involved it is the rate payers that are subsidizing the health care recipient  I'm sure that doctor and hospital will take chickens in exchange for that week long stay in the ICU.

[rongo]

12 minutes ago, Physics Guy said:

Where does this breakdown appear? I couldn't find it on the site.

Utah is not among the six states shown as tied for best place in educational attainment equality (bachelor's degree).

This is another factor. My wife just got her associate's degree (Central Arizona College) and completed Pathway this year (2017). She will soon have a BA from BYU-I, but she's almost 40. If we lived in Utah, Utah would have been dinged because she didn't get her bachelor's out of high school. Many Utah women are in this boat, but it doesn't mean that Utah is "bad" for women, education-wise.

[stemelbow]

55 minutes ago, bluebell said:

As I said before, it's not the number of stay at home moms that make the difference but the way that the belief impacts women's desires to become executives, serve in politics, or pay for advanced degrees.  Does the study take that into consideration?

Possible, But that measure is not considered and we have no evidence to say Utah is lower on any of this than any other state. 

Quote

If women self-select out of the workforce, politics, and advance degrees, a higher numbers than men because of their personal religious belief, can the state be described as supporting the inequality of women?

 

And if not, then this reason to dismiss the study's results is out the window, of course.  If more women in Utah choose politics than in Kansas and yet Kansas ranks higher, has a better score, does that mean those women in Utah who stay at home are the reason Utah is lower? 

I also saw this from the same:

https://wallethub.com/edu/best-states-for-working-moms/3565/

Utah ranks 18th for best states for working moms. 

Edited August 24, 2017 by stemelbow

[stemelbow]

2 minutes ago, rongo said:

This is another factor. My wife just got her associate's degree (Central Arizona College) and completed Pathway this year (2017). She will soon have a BA from BYU-I, but she's almost 40. If we lived in Utah, Utah would have been dinged because she didn't get her bachelor's out of high school. Many Utah women are in this boat, but it doesn't mean that Utah is "bad" for women, education-wise.

Actually Utah is the top in the country in terms of women having bachelor's degrees compared to men.  So that theory is out. 

[stemelbow]

18 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I've looked but haven't seen it. Does the study tell us what year(s) they are getting their data from?  

It might depend.  Not all data is collected through the US Census bureau, for instance, each year.  It might be that some came from the 2010 census and some from the 2017 census. 

They note:

Data used to create this ranking were collected from the U.S. Census Bureau, Bureau of Labor Statistics, Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, National Women's Law Center, National Center for Educational Statistics, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and Center for American Women and Politics.

It's probably likely hard to reference the year since it spans years, quite likely.

[rongo]

9 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Actually Utah is the top in the country in terms of women having bachelor's degrees compared to men.  So that theory is out. 

Well, it's stupid that this "study" ranks Utah in the bottom tier (43rd) then. 

Kind of seems like they have predetermined outcomes they would like to show with certain states/regions, doesn't it?

[bluebell]

Just now, stemelbow said:

 

And if not, then the excuse is out the window, of course.  If more women in Utah choose politics than in Kansas and yet Kansas ranks higher, has a better score, does that mean those women in Utah who stay at home are the reason Utah is lower? 

I also saw this from the same:

https://wallethub.com/edu/best-states-for-working-moms/3565/

Utah ranks 18th for best states for working moms. 

This conversation would be a lot better if you could get away from the 'excuse' frame of mind.  My questions are not about finding excuses not to believe the study and I have no desire to discuss this with someone who can't recognize that.  

One of the reasons that I'm having trouble trusting this study is because a couple of years ago another study was released which ranked gender inequality in each state and out of the 6 topics measured (politics, employment and earnings, poverty and opportunity, reproductive rights, work and family, and health and well-being) Utah was last only in two (politics and work and family).  It wasn't in the bottom five in any of the other topics measured.  This meant that in the study's overall ranking, Utah didn't even make the bottom five for worst states for women.

Quote

Possible, But that measure is not considered and we have no evidence to say Utah is lower on any of this than any other state. 

I'm wondering if it's possible to know how Utah really ranks when it comes to gender inequality without considering that. 

 

[stemelbow]

22 minutes ago, Physics Guy said:

Where does this breakdown appear? I couldn't find it on the site.

Utah is not among the six states shown as tied for best place in educational attainment equality (bachelor's degree).

I got that from http://kutv.com/news/local/utah-ranked-last-in-us-gender-equality

I'm guessing the listed top 6 are alphabetical and Utah must be out fo the scene tied with a number of other states.  The fact that Utah tied with so many others is likely why that top ranking didn't raise it up much compared to the others.

 

 

[stemelbow]

9 minutes ago, rongo said:

Well, it's stupid that this "study" ranks Utah in the bottom tier (43rd) then. 

Kind of seems like they have predetermined outcomes they would like to show with certain states/regions, doesn't it?

The other measures in that category weighted Utah lower than the top.  That's not stupid.  That's how this works. 

[stemelbow]

15 minutes ago, bluebell said:

This conversation would be a lot better if you could get away from the 'excuse' frame of mind.  My questions are not about finding excuses not to believe the study and I have no desire to discuss this with someone who can't recognize that.  

I didn't see excuse as a negative thing.  I'll go back and change it to something else.   

Quote

One of the reasons that I'm having trouble trusting this study is because a couple of years ago another study was released which ranked gender inequality in each state and out of the 6 topics measured (politics, employment and earnings, poverty and opportunity, reproductive rights, work and family, and health and well-being) Utah was last only in two (politics and work and family).  It wasn't in the bottom five in any of the other topics measured.  This meant that in the study's overall ranking, Utah didn't even make the bottom five for worst states for women.

Link?

Quote

I'm wondering if it's possible to know how Utah really ranks when it comes to gender inequality without considering that. 

 

Of course it seems Utah would have to be considerably higher in terms of stay and home moms then all other states, on such an assumption.  It might be.  I found a map which shows that Utah is among the top 12-15 states in terms of percent of stay at home moms, though.   of coruse other states, like California and Washington are in the same category as Utah in terms of rate of stay at home mom's and they each rate much higher than the average on this scale.  It feels like this reasoning of stay at home mom's isn't really panning out as a reason (not excuse) why this study isn't to be trusted or valuable or whatever. 

Edited August 24, 2017 by stemelbow

[bluebell]

15 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Link?

The Status of Women in the States

Quote

Of course it seems Utah would have to be considerably higher in terms of stay and home moms then all other states, on such an assumption.  It might be.  I found a map which shows that Utah is among the top 12-15 states in terms of percent of stay at home moms, though.   of coruse other states, like California and Washington are in the same category as Utah in terms of rate of stay at home mom's and they each rate much higher than the average on this scale.  It feels like this reasoning of stay at home mom's isn't really panning out as a reason (not excuse) why this study isn't to be trusted or valuable or whatever. 

California nd Washing have the same percentage rates for stay at home moms as Utah?

[rongo]

22 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

The other measures in that category weighted Utah lower than the top.  That's not stupid.  That's how this works. 

Remind me what those other measures are?

[Darren10]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

Don't know.  I don't care about that kind of stuff.  But Utah got a very pleasant 18th ranking on that particular measure, so it was one trying to bring the state's overall ranking up, but failed, because it's still way down below the rest.

The problem for me is that it seems nobody knows.

Currently unfunded liabilities for the national debt is over $107 Trillion. Unfunded liabilities is in part medical promises made by the federal government. How much per person is $107 Trillion and then how much per state?

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

[CV75]

2 hours ago, stemelbow said:

https://wallethub.com/edu/best-and-worst-states-for-women-equality/5835/

Is this mostly due to the Church's influence on the state's culture and it's view of women? 

Utah coming in last.  But it's not that its last.  If you look at the index, the number for Utah is substantially lower than the 49th ranked state.  Meaning, not only is Utah last, but it's way behind. 

Maybe a little surprising to me. 

It seems Utah is overall only 63% LDS. http://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=1842825&itype=CMSID

"Utah's predominant faith, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, provides county-level membership numbers to state government for demographic purposes." Does that mean a good portion of the 63% is non-practicing? If so, it wouls seem that the majority influence on state culture would come from say the 20% lapsed LDS and the remaining non-LDS population, yielding 43% practicing LDS and 57% not- and non-practicing LDS (20% lapsed members plus 37% non-LDS).

The non-practicing LDS would probably be influenced less by the Church and more by non-religious tradition or secular values. The non-LDS would be a mix of religious, secular and traditional values.

Maybe the offenders take advantage of the perceived Church culture to excuse taking liberties to their advantage, contributing to this inequality.

Edited August 24, 2017 by CV75

[RevTestament]

2 hours ago, stemelbow said:

https://wallethub.com/edu/best-and-worst-states-for-women-equality/5835/

Is this mostly due to the Church's influence on the state's culture and it's view of women? 

Utah coming in last.  But it's not that its last.  If you look at the index, the number for Utah is substantially lower than the 49th ranked state.  Meaning, not only is Utah last, but it's way behind. 

Maybe a little surprising to me. 

Using percentages may tend to skew results a little bit. I don't believe Utah deserves dead last for education for women. Here are some other statistics for women in Utah:

• In 2012, 91 percent of Utah women aged 25 and older had graduated from high school. Utah men also showed a high school graduation rate of roughly 91 percent.  Nationally, high school graduation rates equaled 87 percent for women and 86 percent for men.
• Roughly 28 percent of Utah women had a bachelor’s degree or higher in 2012 compared to 29 percent of U.S. women. Utah men showed a 33 percent rate of college graduation in contrast to the U.S. average of 29 percent.
• https://jobs.utah.gov/wi/pubs/womencareers/factsheet.html

So compared to national rates, women fare significantly better in high school graduation rates - among the best in the country. Women are about average for college graduation. 

The sticking point seems to be that Utah has a 4 percent higher college graduation rate for men that the national average and 5 percent higher than its women. That should hardly be looked upon as unfavorable for women, and I believe should not place Utah dead last just because LDS men pursue a college degree at a higher rate than the national average. LDS men want to be able to support their families. Women likely become mothers at a higher rate than in other states by their own choice. So neither the numbers nor the reality of how women feel about it seem to be accurately represented by coming in 50th according to your site. There are other states in which women have lower graduation rates.

[thesometimesaint]

50 minutes ago, Darren10 said:

The problem for me is that it seems nobody knows.

Currently unfunded liabilities for the national debt is over $107 Trillion. Unfunded liabilities is in part medical promises made by the federal government. How much per person is $107 Trillion and then how much per state?

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

Divide (about $19 Trillion) current national debt by the average life expectancy for the people  alive or expected to be born and live over that time frame. Then compare that number with the expected income taxes paid over the same time frame. SEE http://www.usdebtclock.org/

BTW Infrastructure(Things like roads and bridges) are also part of our national debt. If you don't pay for them you won't have them.

Edited August 24, 2017 by thesometimesaint

[stemelbow]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

The Status of Women in the States

California nd Washing have the same percentage rates for stay at home moms as Utah?

Here's the link I forgot to leave for you:

http://eyeonhousing.org/2012/07/the-geography-of-stay-at-home-moms/

In this map California, Utah and Washington are in the same graded category per the rate of stay at home mom's.  I wish I could find the data behind this but have been unsuccessful in between other tasks I'm up to.  I found some data at the Census site, but none of it is by state. 

[stemelbow]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

The Status of Women in the States

 

Looks like Utah got a grade of D on this report and 39th overall for Employment and Earnings

Rank 29, grade C- in poverty and earnings

Rank 50, grade F in work and family

Rank 37, C- in Reproductive Rights

Rank 4 and B in Health and Wellbeing

Rank 50 and F in Political well being

According to this.

That feels about the same as this study overall. 

[Kenngo1969]

4 hours ago, stemelbow said:

https://wallethub.com/edu/best-and-worst-states-for-women-equality/5835/

Is this mostly due to the Church's influence on the state's culture and it's view of women? 

Utah coming in last.  But it's not that its last.  If you look at the index, the number for Utah is substantially lower than the 49th ranked state.  Meaning, not only is Utah last, but it's way behind. 

Maybe a little surprising to me. 

Oh, noes! Stemelbow, uber-enlightened Chief of the PC Police, is here to lecture us backward, benighted Utahns on our blatant horrendous, mistreatment of wimmunz!  

Edited August 24, 2017 by Kenngo1969

[stemelbow]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

Using percentages may tend to skew results a little bit. I don't believe Utah deserves dead last for education for women. Here are some other statistics for women in Utah:

• In 2012, 91 percent of Utah women aged 25 and older had graduated from high school. Utah men also showed a high school graduation rate of roughly 91 percent.  Nationally, high school graduation rates equaled 87 percent for women and 86 percent for men.
• Roughly 28 percent of Utah women had a bachelor’s degree or higher in 2012 compared to 29 percent of U.S. women. Utah men showed a 33 percent rate of college graduation in contrast to the U.S. average of 29 percent.
• https://jobs.utah.gov/wi/pubs/womencareers/factsheet.html

So compared to national rates, women fare significantly better in high school graduation rates - among the best in the country. Women are about average for college graduation. 

The sticking point seems to be that Utah has a 4 percent higher college graduation rate for men that the national average and 5 percent higher than its women. That should hardly be looked upon as unfavorable for women, and I believe should not place Utah dead last just because LDS men pursue a college degree at a higher rate than the national average. LDS men want to be able to support their families. Women likely become mothers at a higher rate than in other states by their own choice. So neither the numbers nor the reality of how women feel about it seem to be accurately represented by coming in 50th according to your site. There are other states in which women have lower graduation rates.

Utah was tied for first in the measure you outline here.  Overall though, in that category, Utah was last. 

[bluebell]

31 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Here's the link I forgot to leave for you:

http://eyeonhousing.org/2012/07/the-geography-of-stay-at-home-moms/

In this map California, Utah and Washington are in the same graded category per the rate of stay at home mom's.  I wish I could find the data behind this but have been unsuccessful in between other tasks I'm up to.  I found some data at the Census site, but none of it is by state. 

I see that the map doesn't say that the rates of stay at home moms are the same for CA and UT but that both states have at least 33% or more.  So if California had a rate of 34% and Utah had a rate of 50% (I'm completely making up those numbers.  I don't think Utah's rate is 50%), both would still be listed in the same category.

[Physics Guy]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

Roughly 28 percent of Utah women had a bachelor’s degree or higher in 2012 compared to 29 percent of U.S. women. Utah men showed a 33 percent rate of college graduation in contrast to the U.S. average of 29 percent.

I found something a bit different that I thought was more recent. Part of the difference might be whether one looks at education of working people (some statistics), or of everyone. On the one hand the figures I saw had Utah below the national average for both men and women, and had women disadvantaged more than average, in that nationally more women get bachelor's degrees than men do, but in Utah it was the other way around. On the other hand the actual differences were not so enormous.

I still don't think Utah really did top the nation in bachelor's degree equality. I only see that in the kutv site, not the page that shows all the names and pictures of the study conductors, so I think maybe kutv just messed up that figure. Plunging from first to worst in getting just one more degree seems unlikely, and I think data from other sites show that Utah is not so awesome in giving bachelor's degrees equally to men and women.

So I'm not sure the 50 ranking for health and education disparity is really such an anomaly. That "first place for bachelor's degrees" might just be misreporting by kutv.