oops Women

[bluebell]

24 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Looks like Utah got a grade of D on this report and 39th overall for Employment and Earnings

Rank 29, grade C- in poverty and earnings

Rank 50, grade F in work and family

Rank 37, C- in Reproductive Rights

Rank 4 and B in Health and Wellbeing

Rank 50 and F in Political well being

According to this.

That feels about the same as this study overall. 

I'm not sure how it feels about the same.  The OP study ranks Utah at 50/50.  This study (which uses more data to arrive at it's conclusions) ranks Utah at 34/50.   That's a notable difference, isn't it?

The OP study says that Utah is the worst state for gender equality.  This other study says that there are 16 states worse than Utah.

[stemelbow]

10 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I see that the map doesn't say that the rates of stay at home moms are the same for CA and UT but that both states have at least 33% or more.  So if California had a rate of 34% and Utah had a rate of 50% (I'm completely making up those numbers.  I don't think Utah's rate is 50%), both would still be listed in the same category.

That's what I was trying to explain when I said what I did.  They are in the same graded category according to this. 

[pogi]

4 hours ago, stemelbow said:

https://wallethub.com/edu/best-and-worst-states-for-women-equality/5835/

Is this mostly due to the Church's influence on the state's culture and it's view of women? 

Utah coming in last.  But it's not that its last.  If you look at the index, the number for Utah is substantially lower than the 49th ranked state.  Meaning, not only is Utah last, but it's way behind. 

Maybe a little surprising to me. 

That is certainly concerning problem that needs to be addressed in our state.  Here are some good articles explaining some of the potential reasons:

http://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/women-and-the-gender-pay-gap-why-does-utah-score/article_8e6a0a06-90cc-5993-a572-db04f99fd070.html

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865554240/Wage-gap-emphasizes-educational-gap-for-Utah-women.html

http://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=3738626&itype=CMSID

I do believe that the Church's influence can explain some of the numbers, but not all.  For instance, college graduation rates for women in Utah are the worst in the nation.  I would be willing to bet that this is because women in Utah choose not to wait to start a family, get pregnant in the middle of college, and drop out more than other states.  I certainly saw it a few times studying nursing at UVU.  I think it would be fair to attribute this statistic to the Church's influence of prioritizing a family over a career for women.  However, I can't see how other factors could be attributed to the Church.   For example, according to these articles, discrimination is the leading cause of wage gaps between men and women in Utah.  I don't see how that could be attributed to the Church's influence, as such a practice is contrary to the church's teachings and requirements for a temple recommend (honest in your dealings...).

There are several other factors listed in these articles:  Women are not seeking STEM fields as much in Utah and instead pursue lower paying careers as compared to the rest of the nation.  This means that more lower paying, minimum wage jobs are held by women (true across the nation, but especially true in Utah) , so if minimum wages are much lower in Utah then other states, this compounds the issue because a lower minimum wage will affect more women then men.  In other words, if a state has a higher minimum wage, then that state is going to appear to have more gender equality. 

[DJBrown]

4 hours ago, stemelbow said:

https://wallethub.com/edu/best-and-worst-states-for-women-equality/5835/

Is this mostly due to the Church's influence on the state's culture and it's view of women? 

Utah coming in last.  But it's not that its last.  If you look at the index, the number for Utah is substantially lower than the 49th ranked state.  Meaning, not only is Utah last, but it's way behind. 

Maybe a little surprising to me. 

I am most familiar with the medical and surgical literature.  And it is recognized that in that field, only 5-10% of the conclusions in the medical/surgical literature are actually supported by the data.  In other words, 90-95% of the conclusions are invalid.  And that literature includes the details of the methodologies in those studies.

This study here is not worth 10 seconds attention.  Nowhere are the actual methodologies, data, and statistics detailed that would be required to make these conclusions.  

I would not trust anything the authors state in their conclusions.

[stemelbow]

6 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I'm not sure how it feels about the same.  The OP study ranks Utah at 50/50.  This study (which uses more data to arrive at it's conclusions) ranks Utah at 34/50.   That's a notable difference, isn't it?

The OP study says that Utah is the worst state for gender equality.  This other study says that there are 16 states worse than Utah.

They are certainly measuring these in different ways.  and then when they sum it up and put them all together they do it differently.  I found the info for the IWPR (the study you linked) For Employment and earnings interesting.  Utah got a ranking of 39 and a D grade on this category.  The four measures for this category are, it seems:  What workers earn (Utah was ranked 27th in this measure);  Gender wage ratio (Utah ranked 48th); Labor Force Participation Rate (Utah ranked 29th--this seems to apply to the stay at mom concern expressed earlier); and Share of all workers in Managerial and professional jobs (Utah ranked 36th). 

In the other study (Wallethub):

Quote

Workplace Environment – Total Points: 33.33

• Income Disparity: Full Weight (~4.76 Points)
  Note: “Income” refers to median weekly earnings.
• Higher-Income Disparity: Full Weight (~4.76 Points)
  Note: “Higher Income” refers to median annual earnings of $100,000 or more.
• Disparity in Share of Executive Positions: Full Weight (~4.76 Points)
• Disparity in Number of Minimum-Wage Workers: Full Weight (~4.76 Points)
• Unemployment-Rate Disparity: Full Weight (~4.76 Points)
• Entrepreneurship-Rate Disparity: Full Weight (~4.76 Points)
• Disparity in Average Number of Work Hours: Full Weight (~4.76 Points)
  Note: “Average Number of Work Hours” pertains to full-time workers.

So they grade state's for this category using different measures, but in some cases similar. 

 

Quote

 The best states must:  1) rank in the top ten on at least one composite index of women’s status, and 2) never rank in the bottom half of all states. Twelve states qualified under these criteria. Honorable mention is given to states that rank in the top half on all the composite indices, although no state received honorable mention. The worst states:  1) rank in the bottom ten on at least one composite index of women’s status, and 2) never rank in the top half of all states.

Meaning they don't just let the numbers do the talking.  They have to move states either up or down to accommodate other states who don't fit their criteria.  I can't see where it gives us the overall ranking (other than on the fact sheet when it doesn't show the whole list).  I see it categorized in each case.  Utah:

 

Quote

 

Report Card Summary

Chapters	Rank	Grade
Employment & Earnings	39	D
Political Participation	50	F
Poverty & Opportunity	29	C-
Reproductive Rights	37	C-
Health & Well-Being	4	B
Work & Family	50	F

 

Alabama (lowest ranked) for comparison Report Card Summary Chapters Rank Grade Employment & Earnings 46 D- Political Participation 41 D- Poverty & Opportunity 45 D- Reproductive Rights 40 D+ Health & Well-Being 50 F Work & Family 39 D

[stemelbow]

6 minutes ago, DJBrown said:

I am most familiar with the medical and surgical literature.  And it is recognized that in that field, only 5-10% of the conclusions in the medical/surgical literature are actually supported by the data.  In other words, 90-95% of the conclusions are invalid.  And that literature includes the details of the methodologies in those studies.

This study here is not worth 10 seconds attention.  Nowhere are the actual methodologies, data, and statistics detailed that would be required to make these conclusions.  

I would not trust anything the authors state in their conclusions.

What medical and surgical literature? 

[DJBrown]

3 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

What medical and surgical literature? 

What do you mean?  I read the articles in periodicals like Annals of Surgery, Obesity, JAMA, American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Metabolism and Nutrition, New England Journal of Medicine, etc.  

[stemelbow]

2 minutes ago, DJBrown said:

What do you mean?  I read the articles in periodicals like Annals of Surgery, Obesity, JAMA, American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Metabolism and Nutrition, New England Journal of Medicine, etc.  

I don't see anything in this study that has anything to do with that.  the closest it seems is Disparity in Doctor-Visit Affordability.  But I'm not so sure the periodicals you mention have any info on that. 

[DJBrown]

2 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I don't see anything in this study that has anything to do with that.  the closest it seems is Disparity in Doctor-Visit Affordability.  But I'm not so sure the periodicals you mention have any info on that. 

My point is about research articles in general.  I believe no conclusions that are not clearly supported by the primary data, methodology, and statistical analysis in the study.  The article you linked to does not provide anything approaching an appropriate description of the data, methodology, or statistical analysis needed to make the conclusions they make.  The article's conclusions are worthless as written.  

[CV75]

32 minutes ago, pogi said:

That is certainly concerning problem that needs to be addressed in our state.  Here are some good articles explaining some of the potential reasons:

http://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/women-and-the-gender-pay-gap-why-does-utah-score/article_8e6a0a06-90cc-5993-a572-db04f99fd070.html

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865554240/Wage-gap-emphasizes-educational-gap-for-Utah-women.html

http://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=3738626&itype=CMSID

I do believe that the Church's influence can explain some of the numbers, but not all.  For instance, college graduation rates for women in Utah are the worst in the nation.  I would be willing to bet that this is because women in Utah choose not to wait to start a family, get pregnant in the middle of college, and drop out more than other states.  I certainly saw it a few times studying nursing at UVU.  I think it would be fair to attribute this statistic to the Church's influence of prioritizing a family over a career for women.  However, I can't see how other factors could be attributed to the Church.   For example, according to these articles, discrimination is the leading cause of wage gaps between men and women in Utah.  I don't see how that could be attributed to the Church's influence, as such a practice is contrary to the church's teachings and requirements for a temple recommend (honest in your dealings...).

There are several other factors listed in these articles:  Women are not seeking STEM fields as much in Utah and instead pursue lower paying careers as compared to the rest of the nation.  This means that more lower paying, minimum wage jobs are held by women (true across the nation, but especially true in Utah) , so if minimum wages are much lower in Utah then other states, this compounds the issue because a lower minimum wage will affect more women then men.  In other words, if a state has a higher minimum wage, then that state is going to appear to have more gender equality. 

I'm still trying to figure out how big an influence the Church actually is. It seems Utah is overall only 63% LDS. http://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=1842825&itype=CMSID

"Utah's predominant faith, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, provides county-level membership numbers to state government for demographic purposes." Does that mean a good portion of the 63% is non-practicing? If so, it would seem that the majority influence on state culture would come from say the 20% lapsed LDS and the remaining non-LDS population, yielding 43% practicing LDS and 57% not- and non-practicing LDS (20% lapsed members plus 37% non-LDS).

The non-practicing LDS would probably be influenced less by the Church and more by non-religious tradition or secular values. The non-LDS would be a mix of religious, secular and traditional values.

Are the majority of the population tag-alongs to the controlling minority, or are they taking advantage of a perceived/touted Church culture to their advantage, contributing to this inequality, or is the trend simply reflecting the majority values irrespective of Church affliction or involvement?

[stemelbow]

10 minutes ago, DJBrown said:

My point is about research articles in general.  I believe no conclusions that are not clearly supported by the primary data, methodology, and statistical analysis in the study.  The article you linked to does not provide anything approaching an appropriate description of the data, methodology, or statistical analysis needed to make the conclusions they make.  The article's conclusions are worthless as written.  

Gotcha.  Not of interest to you.  Fair enough. 

[DJBrown]

2 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Gotcha.  Not of interest to you.  Fair enough. 

 

No.  The authors just as well could have claimed that aliens landed in the front lawn of their university and revealed these conclusions to them.  The authors do NOT provide support for their conclusions.  Only a person with very little experience in reading and analysing research articles for validity would believe this article.  But never underestimate how many gullible people there are in this world!

[stemelbow]

2 minutes ago, DJBrown said:

 

No.  The authors just as well could have claimed that aliens landed in the front lawn of their university and revealed these conclusions to them.  The authors do NOT provide support for their conclusions.  Only a person with very little experience in reading and analysing research articles for validity would believe this article.  But never underestimate how many gullible people there are in this world!

It's not a matter of believing anything.  They created indices since measuring the women's equality is not a concrete measure.  The other study that measures the status of women does the same thing--creating indices and makes comparisons. 

They each do things like, measure the difference between wages of men and women in the work force for each state, or measure the difference in number of college grads per capita of men versus women in each state.  They are ranked form the highest to the lowest in these measures, and in the sum each measure is considered and weighted to come to a conclusion.  Now that conclusion is not meant to be concrete because there is no way to arrive at concrete.  But the issue is worth considering for some of us.  This is not hard science even if some math is involved.  Any reader of it recognizes, or should recognize, the conclusions are not objective. 

I'd love to have access to all that they considered in either study.  But they just don't give it all to us, unfortunately. 

[pogi]

48 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I'm still trying to figure out how big an influence the Church actually is. It seems Utah is overall only 63% LDS. http://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=1842825&itype=CMSID

"Utah's predominant faith, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, provides county-level membership numbers to state government for demographic purposes." Does that mean a good portion of the 63% is non-practicing? If so, it would seem that the majority influence on state culture would come from say the 20% lapsed LDS and the remaining non-LDS population, yielding 43% practicing LDS and 57% not- and non-practicing LDS (20% lapsed members plus 37% non-LDS).

The non-practicing LDS would probably be influenced less by the Church and more by non-religious tradition or secular values. The non-LDS would be a mix of religious, secular and traditional values.

Are the majority of the population tag-alongs to the controlling minority, or are they taking advantage of a perceived/touted Church culture to their advantage, contributing to this inequality, or is the trend simply reflecting the majority values irrespective of Church affliction or involvement?

That is true, but 43% is still enough to sway stats significantly for a state.  For example, I think that 43% can easily explain the 3.2% college graduation gap between men and women in Utah, while in other states women actually have a 4.6% higher graduation rate then men.  I think the best explanation for that would be Mormon pregnancy in college.

I think you are right though that the church is not to blame for much of the other statistics.   

[DJBrown]

50 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

It's not a matter of believing anything.  They created indices since measuring the women's equality is not a concrete measure.  The other study that measures the status of women does the same thing--creating indices and makes comparisons. 

They each do things like, measure the difference between wages of men and women in the work force for each state, or measure the difference in number of college grads per capita of men versus women in each state.  They are ranked form the highest to the lowest in these measures, and in the sum each measure is considered and weighted to come to a conclusion.  Now that conclusion is not meant to be concrete because there is no way to arrive at concrete.  But the issue is worth considering for some of us.  This is not hard science even if some math is involved.  Any reader of it recognizes, or should recognize, the conclusions are not objective. 

I'd love to have access to all that they considered in either study.  But they just don't give it all to us, unfortunately. 

They give us an astonishingly small amount.  

I could come up with indices for anything from a database to demonstrate any conclusion I desired.  There are thousands of potential confounding variables.  That is precisely why these details must be disclosed for something like this to be taken seriously.  

This study is worthless.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Of course it seems Utah would have to be considerably higher in terms of stay and home moms then all other states, on such an assumption.  It might be.  I found a map which shows that Utah is among the top 12-15 states in terms of percent of stay at home moms, though.   of coruse other states, like California and Washington are in the same category as Utah in terms of rate of stay at home mom's and they each rate much higher than the average on this scale. It feels like this reasoning of stay at home mom's isn't really panning out as a reason (not excuse) why this study isn't to be trusted or valuable or whatever.

 

2 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Here's the link I forgot to leave for you:

http://eyeonhousing.org/2012/07/the-geography-of-stay-at-home-moms/

In this map California, Utah and Washington are in the same graded category per the rate of stay at home mom's.  I wish I could find the data behind this but have been unsuccessful in between other tasks I'm up to.  I found some data at the Census site, but none of it is by state. 

The bold cannot be concluded just because CA and WA happened to be in the same graded area.  First off there could still be a highly significant difference in numbers since the category is 33% and over if CA and WA are on the low end and UT is high.

Also that study does not indicate the reason to stay home or income level for the family.  It could be possible that stay at home mom's in Utah are in a higher income bracket or lower If due to cultural/religious reasons, they are willing to sacrifice financially more to stay at home than the other states.  Also staying at home may be a choice for more moms in Utah than other states.  Stay at home moms may be a result of borderline cases where working lowers income for state assisted families (I knew of several cases in Canada where a single mother couldn't work because that shifted her bills into unplayable by removing her family from subsidized housing and health care).

The study also doesn't indicate whether these stay at home mothers are single or married, etc.

There are too many factors that impact why a woman is a stay at home mom that will also impact other measures to just dismiss the stay at home factor for impacting Utah's measurements just because this study lumps Utah, California, and Eashington into the highest SAHM category.

Unless we know the actual percentage is not significantly different and the reasons for staying home are similar as well, the SAHM factor cannot be dismissed as impacting Utah's ratings.

[stemelbow]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

 

The bold cannot be concluded just because CA and WA happened to be in the same graded area.  

It wasn't.  I said it feels like its not really panning out as a reason.  There's nothing conclusive in that. 

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

First off there could still be a highly significant difference in numbers since the category is 33% and over if CA and WA are on the low end and UT is high.

Of course.  That's what I've said. 

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

Also that study does not indicate the reason to stay home or income level for the family.  It could be possible that stay at home mom's in Utah are in a higher income bracket or lower If due to cultural/religious reasons, they are willing to sacrifice financially more to stay at home than the other states.  Also staying at home may be a choice for more moms in Utah than other states.  Stay at home moms may be a result of borderline cases where working lowers income for state assisted families (I knew of several cases in Canada where a single mother couldn't work because that shifted her bills into unplayable by removing her family from subsidized housing and health care).

Anything's possible. 

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

The study also doesn't indicate whether these stay at home mothers are single or married, etc.

There are too many factors that impact why a woman is a stay at home mom that will also impact other measures to just dismiss the stay at home factor for impacting Utah's measurements just because this study lumps Utah, California, and Eashington into the highest SAHM category.

Unless we know the actual percentage is not significantly different and the reasons for staying home are similar as well, the SAHM factor cannot be dismissed as impacting Utah's ratings.

Thanks for your thoughts.  It's certainly possible. 

[hagoth7]

7 hours ago, stemelbow said:

https://wallethub.com/edu/best-and-worst-states-for-women-equality/5835/

Is this mostly due to the Church's influence on the state's culture and it's view of women? 

Utah coming in last.  But it's not that its last.  If you look at the index, the number for Utah is substantially lower than the 49th ranked state.  Meaning, not only is Utah last, but it's way behind. 

Maybe a little surprising to me. 

Tell that Utah's court of appeals.

Women filling the majority of the seats there made the front page news earlier this month. :0) 

Changes are in motion.

[pogi]

I also don't agree with the conclusion of this study that inequality = unfair treatment.  While that may certainly be the case in some instances (pay gap), I don't think that unfair treatment can explain all gender inequality.  For example, can "unfair treatment" explain why women across the country (not just Utah) seek for STEM fields less then men do?  Are colleges discriminating against women in these programs?  I doubt it.  I think they have an equal opportunity and fair treatment in that regard, but perhaps women are self-limiting to some degree because of their own misguided gender perceptions.  I believe that there is nothing holding women back but their own self-limiting beliefs in some instances.  Old cultural beliefs and perceptions can infect and limit progress, even when all of the tangible barriers of progress have been removed.  

Belief is incredibly powerful.  There were no tangible physical barriers keeping anyone from running a 4 minute mile (there were only mental barriers).  Once Roger Bannister believed that he could do it, he did it.  Once other people saw that it could be done, they believed and did it too, and now a 4 minute mile is relatively slow.  Once women start believing that they can graduate and succeed in STEM fields, then we will see gender equality in STEM fields.

So, I think the problem is multifaceted.  I think there are some cultural/religious explenations for some variables, actual discrimination for others, as well as self-limiting beliefs with tentacles reaching from old paradigms.  

Edited August 24, 2017 by pogi

[bluebell]

9 minutes ago, DJBrown said:

I am most familiar with the medical and surgical literature.  And it is recognized that in that field, only 5-10% of the conclusions in the medical/surgical literature are actually supported by the data.  In other words, 90-95% of the conclusions are invalid.  And that literature includes the details of the methodologies in those studies.

This study here is not worth 10 seconds attention.  Nowhere are the actual methodologies, data, and statistics detailed that would be required to make these conclusions.  

I would not trust anything the authors state in their conclusions.

That's what I'm wondering.  How did they arrive at the conclusions they did.  

[CV75]

3 hours ago, pogi said:

That is true, but 43% is still enough to sway stats significantly for a state.  For example, I think that 43% can easily explain the 3.2% college graduation gap between men and women in Utah, while in other states women actually have a 4.6% higher graduation rate then men.  I think the best explanation for that would be Mormon pregnancy in college.

I think you are right though that the church is not to blame for much of the other statistics.   

Maybe 43% is too high an estimate, considering all the members leaving (or staying in name only) over the Church’s countless problematic issues...

A quick, lazy, Google research: Over 90% of the Utah population is urban (9th highest urban population in the nation), with over 13% living in poverty. Urban students lag behind rural students in high school graduation rates https://nscresearchcenter.org/high-school-benchmarks-2016-national-college-progression-rates/ and teen pregnancy is well above the State average (17.6) in the urban counties of Salt Lake (35.9) and Weber (24.1; Davis and Utah counties are below the State average, 13.2 and 11.5 respectively -- but these are college urban centers, aren't they?) https://ibis.health.utah.gov/indicator/complete_profile/AdoBrth.html . And let’s say the % non-student LDS is smaller in the urban counties. To me, these factors would affect the college education rates more than religious values.

Edited August 25, 2017 by CV75

[Calm]

The teen pregnancies, last I checked, were primarily married(18 and 19 year olds getting married and then pretty much instantly pregnant like one of my sister-in-law)...unmarried pregnancies were quite low in Utah.  That type of teen pregnancy probably doesn't interfere with high school graduation rates.

[Robert F. Smith]

10 hours ago, stemelbow said:

.............................

What do you mean?  Are you saying this is ranking based on how many women are in the workforce?  Is Utah the highest in the country in terms of states where adult women don't work?  I don't think that's the biggest factor in dropping Utah so incredibly low compared to the others. 

Well, then pray tell which were the biggest factors?  Perhaps you are unaware that Utah was one of the first states to grant women suffrage, while they were denied the vote everywhere else.  Are you even looking at relevant data?

What percentage of the state's youth are on missions during the crucial measurement years?

Edited August 25, 2017 by Robert F. Smith

[Scott Lloyd]

Daniel Peterson on his blog has some thoughts on this study and how there are ways such a thing might be influenced by the way it is structured, considerations that are included, questions that are asked, ideological assumptions that are made, etc.

 

[Robert F. Smith]

6 hours ago, pogi said:

.....................................................

There are several other factors listed in these articles:  Women are not seeking STEM fields as much in Utah and instead pursue lower paying careers as compared to the rest of the nation.  This means that more lower paying, minimum wage jobs are held by women (true across the nation, but especially true in Utah) , so if minimum wages are much lower in Utah then other states, this compounds the issue because a lower minimum wage will affect more women then men.  In other words, if a state has a higher minimum wage, then that state is going to appear to have more gender equality. 

Then too, Utah has a much lower standard of living than other states, in addition to paying school teachers so poorly that they rank last or next to last -- even so managing to educate the children of Utah much more successfully than other states.  How does that happen?  There are a number of oddities to be taken account of in this debate.