oops Women

[stemelbow]

https://wallethub.com/edu/best-and-worst-states-for-women-equality/5835/

Is this mostly due to the Church's influence on the state's culture and it's view of women? 

Utah coming in last.  But it's not that its last.  If you look at the index, the number for Utah is substantially lower than the 49th ranked state.  Meaning, not only is Utah last, but it's way behind. 

Maybe a little surprising to me. 

[bluebell]

I'm not surprised, given the parameters they are using (women in the workplace and women in politics).  In a state where a large part of the female population believes in the benefits of being stay at home moms, it's not too surprising to me to see the state ranked poorly using that measurement.  But I am surprised the state ranked so low in education/health for women.  It doesn't make a lot of sense to me.  I would love to see the actual evidence they used to determine their numbers.  

It's impossible to know how trustworthy the study is without seeing the data.

[rongo]

Yeah, the standard for this is numerical equality in the workforce and in politics. Does that mean that women's equality actually is dead last in Utah?

My wife is a career housewife and homemaker by *her* choice. Nobody who knows her (me least of all, and certainly not her) would describe her as unequal to anybody. But the people pushing this narrative would insist that she is a repressed, oppressed underling.

That's the dynamic with surveys, studies, and stories like this.

[stemelbow]

9 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I'm not surprised, given the parameters they are using (women in the workplace and women in politics).  In a state where a large part of the female population believes in the benefits of being stay at home moms, it's not too surprising to me to see the state ranked poorly using that measurement.  But I am surprised the state ranked so low in education/health for women.  It doesn't make a lot of sense to me.  I would love to see the actual evidence they used to determine their numbers.  

It's impossible to know how trustworthy the study is without seeing the data.

Well I found this:

Quote

Utah led the nation in educational attainment disparity, with a .01 percent difference between men and women. It dropped from first to last in getting advanced education.

Bluebell said

Quote

given the parameters they are using (women in the workplace and women in politics).  In a state where a large part of the female population believes in the benefits of being stay at home moms, it's not too surprising to me to see the state ranked poorly using that measurement.

What do you mean?  Are you saying this is ranking based on how many women are in the workforce?  Is Utah the highest in the country in terms of states where adult women don't work?  I don't think that's the biggest factor in dropping Utah so incredibly low compared to the others. 

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

https://wallethub.com/edu/best-and-worst-states-for-women-equality/5835/

Is this mostly due to the Church's influence on the state's culture and it's view of women? 

Utah coming in last.  But it's not that its last.  If you look at the index, the number for Utah is substantially lower than the 49th ranked state.  Meaning, not only is Utah last, but it's way behind. 

Maybe a little surprising to me. 

I wonder often, who makes these polls, and I guess it is due (in the yes of the poll makers to "women and the Priesthood", as the Church and State have been very forward thinking of our Sisters. If memory serves, the State of Utah was first to "give" or "grant" the right to vote. In addition within the Church they hold positions of great responsibility, on every level, and Priesthood power is given to some women who serve in the Temple. As more than one lesson points out that those who are married to Priesthood holders, share in those duties in the home. My Mother was not even a member, but she possessed great power due to her unwavering Faith, ambition is a dangerous and prideful thing in the Gospel. But, Oh that I were (had) the power of healing and comport that she possessed in her lifetime. I have told this story before, but while I was in the hospital in the ER, although out of it and unaware, Doctors were giving me meds to calm me and my heart, both of which I was unaware. The ER Doctors told my wife that they would thinking about putting me under to save me from a heart attack. As they were discussing their options, my Mother arrived, she gently put her hand on my forehead (as I am told) and my heart rate came down, and my body relaxed, in an instant. The Doctors (pausing because she was whispering, what she did, in her fashion, she replied, "just praying, and speaking peace unto his soul". Such was her power and her humidity, every child, and those who have or had such a Mother growing up, the simple touch and kiss from their Mother's growing up, could ease suffering and dispell fear, so effortless. 

Back in 1973 (amidst one of the worst ice storms we ever had, and with no power) I was out of school with many childhood illness that I had dodged until the age of 15, she sat up day and night, or slept on a lounge chair, but my bed, making my suffering bearable. On two different occasions that month, my Doctor was not sure I would make it, but never my Mother, she knew I would be alright. Anyway, methinks I write to much. 

[stemelbow]

5 minutes ago, rongo said:

Yeah, the standard for this is numerical equality in the workforce and in politics. Does that mean that women's equality actually is dead last in Utah?

My wife is a career housewife and homemaker by *her* choice. Nobody who knows her (me least of all, and certainly not her) would describe her as unequal to anybody. But the people pushing this narrative would insist that she is a repressed, oppressed underling.

That's the dynamic with surveys, studies, and stories like this.

I thought you weren't in Utah?  Are you saying that this study suggests that women who choose to stay at home are causing the numbers to go down?  Also, do you know if there are far less women in Utah, per capita who work, then other states? 

[bluebell]

For example, in 2015 19% of women in West Virginia had a bachelors degree or higher.  But 28% of women in Utah had the same.  (In Wyoming it was 26%.)  For health, it was harder for me to find statistics for that but generally, the adult population of WV is ranked 2nd in the country for having the worst health and being the most unhealthy.  In a study of the U.S. in 2015 WV was in the top ten for unhealthiest state while Utah was in the top ten.

But Utah is dead last for women's education and health (score of 50) while WV got a score of 9?  That doesn't make much sense.   How is that even possible? 

 

[USU78]

24 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I'm not surprised, given the parameters they are using (women in the workplace and women in politics).  In a state where a large part of the female population believes in the benefits of being stay at home moms, it's not too surprising to me to see the state ranked poorly using that measurement.  But I am surprised the state ranked so low in education/health for women.  It doesn't make a lot of sense to me.  I would love to see the actual evidence they used to determine their numbers.  

It's impossible to know how trustworthy the study is without seeing the data.

Education/health is code for abortion

[stemelbow]

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

For example, in 2015 19% of women in West Virginia had a bachelors degree or higher.  But 28% of women in Utah had the same.  (In Wyoming it was 26%.)  For health, it was harder for me to find statistics for that but generally, the adult population of WV is ranked 2nd in the country for having the worst health and being the most unhealthy.  In a study of the U.S. in 2015 WV was in the top ten for unhealthiest state while Utah was in the top ten.

But Utah is dead last for women's education and health (score of 50) while WV got a score of 9?  That doesn't make much sense.   How is that even possible? 

 

Well it's all there for you to consider:

Quote

Education & Health – Total Points: 33.33

• Educational-Attainment Disparity: Full Weight (~8.33 Points)
  Note: “Educational Attainment” refers to the percentage of the population aged 25 and older holding a bachelor’s degree.
• Disparity in Advanced Educational Attainment: Full Weight (~8.33 Points)
  Note: “Advanced Educational Attainment” refers to the percentage of the population aged 25 and older with an advanced degree (higher than a bachelor’s degree).
• Disparity in Math Test Scores: Full Weight (~8.33 Points)
• Disparity in Doctor-Visit Affordability: Full Weight (~8.33 Points)
  Note: This metric measures the percentage of adults who could not afford a doctor’s visit in the past year due to costs.

Utah was first in Educational-Attainment Disparity: FUll weight

but last in the second measure:  Disparity in Advanced Education Attainment: Full weight

46th in Math scores for women

18th in Affordability for Doctor's visits. 

Your looking at different measures.  Seems like you are objecting to the study's basis.  This never claimed to be a measure of which state is healthiest, though. 

[stemelbow]

5 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Education/health is code for abortion

not in this case. 

[thesometimesaint]

A woman's place is in the House and the Senate.

[bluebell]

8 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Well I found this:

Bluebell said

What do you mean?  Are you saying this is ranking based on how many women are in the workforce?  Is Utah the highest in the country in terms of states where adult women don't work?  I don't think that's the biggest factor in dropping Utah so incredibly low compared to the others. 

The study says that there are three things which they used to determine a state's rank.  Workplace environment (things like how many executives are women and pay gap), Education and Health, and Political empowerment (how many women hold political office).

A belief that women's main career should be being a mom and wife will impact those three things because there will not be as many women trying to run for office or be an executive (for example) or willing to pay to get an advanced degree.  Women will self-select out of those interests at a higher rate than they will in other states where core beliefs are different.  

Does that mean the state treats women unequally?  I have my doubts.

[Physics Guy]

The study measures disparity between men and women, not absolute levels. If things in West Virginia are much worse for women than in Utah, West Virginia can still have much less disparity, if things are more equally awful there for women and men. Utah could come dead last for disparity even if it were the best place on Earth for women—if it were heaven for men.

[rongo]

18 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I thought you weren't in Utah?  Are you saying that this study suggests that women who choose to stay at home are causing the numbers to go down?  Also, do you know if there are far less women in Utah, per capita who work, then other states? 

I'm not in Utah, but you are correct ---  I think the main reason for Utah's "ranking" and "score" is that women not working (and gender representation in the legislature and state house) is the main factor. I don't have actual numbers, but I would expect that Utah would have less women per capita in the workforce, and less women absolutely and per capita in politics.

[Atheist Mormon]

"

Quote

"oops Women"

Funny you started a thread about women. One of my biggest reasons for quitting Belief altogether was that Scriptures doing horrendous job excluding women from the narrative altogether.  

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Well it's all there for you to consider:

Utah was first in Educational-Attainment Disparity: FUll weight

but last in the second measure:  Disparity in Advanced Education Attainment: Full weight

46th in Math scores for women

18th in Affordability for Doctor's visits. 

Your looking at different measures.  Seems like you are objecting to the study's basis.  This never claimed to be a measure of which state is healthiest, though. 

If utah is not last in any of their education or health measurements except the number of women who have advanced degrees compared to men, how did it rank last in their study?  That doesn't make any sense to me which is why i'm questioning it.  Why would doing better than every other state in education except in getting masters and doctorates mean that state was dead last for education equality for women?

And why combine health and education?   

[stemelbow]

8 minutes ago, bluebell said:

The study says that there are three things which they used to determine a state's rank.  Workplace environment (things like how many executives are women and pay gap), Education and Health, and Political empowerment (how many women hold political office).

A belief that women's main career should be being a mom and wife will impact those three things because there will not be as many women trying to run for office or be an executive (for example) or willing to pay to get an advanced degree.  Women will self-select out of those interests at a higher rate than they will in other states where core beliefs are different.  

Does that mean the state treats women unequally?  I have my doubts.

There are a number of factors in each of the three categories for a reason.  Not one of them indicate it's a measure of more women staying at home to be mom's.  I'm still curious if Utah is ranked the highest in that category since it seems you are dismissing this study based on that. 

Here are the measures for the category of women in the work place:

Quote

Workplace Environment – Total Points: 33.33

• Income Disparity: Full Weight (~4.76 Points)
  Note: “Income” refers to median weekly earnings.
• Higher-Income Disparity: Full Weight (~4.76 Points)
  Note: “Higher Income” refers to median annual earnings of $100,000 or more.
• Disparity in Share of Executive Positions: Full Weight (~4.76 Points)
• Disparity in Number of Minimum-Wage Workers: Full Weight (~4.76 Points)
• Unemployment-Rate Disparity: Full Weight (~4.76 Points)
• Entrepreneurship-Rate Disparity: Full Weight (~4.76 Points)
• Disparity in Average Number of Work Hours: Full Weight (~4.76 Points)
  Note: “Average Number of Work Hours” pertains to full-time workers.

Utah ranked 43rd in that category.  None of these are direct measures of women staying at home. 

[stemelbow]

16 minutes ago, rongo said:

I'm not in Utah, but you are correct ---  I think the main reason for Utah's "ranking" and "score" is that women not working (and gender representation in the legislature and state house) is the main factor. I don't have actual numbers, but I would expect that Utah would have less women per capita in the workforce, and less women absolutely and per capita in politics.

Utah ranks 43rd in the workforce category, not last.  None of the measures, as physics guy suggested are based on women number of women but the disparity between the sexes.

Edited August 24, 2017 by stemelbow

[stemelbow]

2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

If utah is not last in any of their education or health measurements except the number of women who have advanced degrees compared to men, how did it rank last in their study?  That doesn't make any sense to me which is why i'm questioning it.  Why would doing better than every other state in education except in getting masters and doctorates mean that state was dead last for education equality for women?

And why combine health and education?   

The four measures, as I showed earlier, are equally weighted in this category of education and health.  When the were all equally weighted for Utah, Utah had the lowest score, compared to the other 50 states.  Are you saying because Utah was highest in one measure it should not have come out as last overall?  That's not taking into account the measures used. 

[Darren10]

14 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Well it's all there for you to consider:

Utah was first in Educational-Attainment Disparity: FUll weight

but last in the second measure:  Disparity in Advanced Education Attainment: Full weight

46th in Math scores for women

18th in Affordability for Doctor's visits. 

Your looking at different measures.  Seems like you are objecting to the study's basis.  This never claimed to be a measure of which state is healthiest, though. 

Does "affordability" for a doctor's visit only include out of pocket cost or does it include how mich taxes are used to subsidize healthcare. If any tax cost is involved that very much should be counted toward the cost per person to visit a doctor. 

[bluebell]

8 minutes ago, Physics Guy said:

The study measures disparity between men and women, not absolute levels. If things in West Virginia are much worse for women than in Utah, West Virginia can still have much less disparity, if things are more equally awful there for women and men. Utah could come dead last for disparity even if it were the best place on Earth for women—if it were heaven for men.

I do get that, but I still don't understand their conclusions.   

[bluebell]

7 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

There are a number of factors in each of the three categories for a reason.  Not one of them indicate it's a measure of more women staying at home to be mom's.  I'm still curious if Utah is ranked the highest in that category since it seems you are dismissing this study based on that. 

Here are the measures for the category of women in the work place:

Utah ranked 43rd in that category.  None of these are direct measures of women staying at home. 

As I said before, it's not the number of stay at home moms that make the difference but the way that the belief impacts women's desires to become executives, serve in politics, or pay for advanced degrees.  Does the study take that into consideration?

If women self-select out of the workforce, politics, and advance degrees, a higher numbers than men because of their personal religious belief, can the state be described as supporting the inequality of women?

 

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

The four measures, as I showed earlier, are equally weighted in this category of education and health.  When the were all equally weighted for Utah, Utah had the lowest score, compared to the other 50 states.  Are you saying because Utah was highest in one measure it should not have come out as last overall?  That's not taking into account the measures used. 

No, that's not what i'm saying.  

 

[rongo]

7 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Utah ranks 43rd in the workforce category, not last.  None of the measures, as physics guy suggested are based on women who stay at home.

They indirectly do, though --- which has a *direct* bearing on their rankings. For example, if a woman has four children (and especially if she takes time off to be with her children before re-entering the workforce), this will naturally impact her earnings and chances for promotion.

That's just one example. Bluebell had some other good points about education. Utah does very well by women as far as education, but if the yardstick is masters degrees and doctorates, then one can claim that Utah is "bad" for women's education.

[stemelbow]

6 minutes ago, Darren10 said:

Does "affordability" for a doctor's visit only include out of pocket cost or does it include how mich taxes are used to subsidize healthcare. If any tax cost is involved that very much should be counted toward the cost per person to visit a doctor. 

Don't know.  I don't care about that kind of stuff.  But Utah got a very pleasant 18th ranking on that particular measure, so it was one trying to bring the state's overall ranking up, but failed, because it's still way down below the rest.