Revelations come "after the manner of their language"

[Scott Lloyd]

The transcript of this might be up on the FairMormon website by now; I haven't checked.

At any rate, here is my summary report of Mike Ash's address at the recent FairMormon Conference in which he takes up the matter of God modifying His communication to suit the capacity of mortals to understand it.

I found it very stimulating.

 

Edited August 12, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[ksfisher]

2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The transcript of this might be up on the FairMormon website by now; I haven't checked.

 

 

The only transcript up so far is Neal Rappleye's.

[Pete Ahlstrom]

I don't know why God just doesn't appear and communicate. It sure would silence all the competing religions. It also could have prevented the priesthood ban derail and mountain meadows.

[JLHPROF]

12 minutes ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

I don't know why God just doesn't appear and communicate. It sure would silence all the competing religions. It also could have prevented the priesthood ban derail and mountain meadows.

Faith.

[theplains]

1 hour ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

I don't know why God just doesn't appear and communicate. It sure would silence all the competing religions.

God did appear and communicate to the Israelites during their exodus. They still fell into disbelief.

Jim

[USU78]

Paging MFB! Paging MFB!

[Glenn101]

On 8/12/2017 at 11:46 AM, Scott Lloyd said:

The transcript of this might be up on the FairMormon website by now; I haven't checked.

At any rate, here is my summary report of Mike Ash's address at the recent FairMormon Conference in which he takes up the matter of God modifying His communication to suit the capacity of mortals to understand it.

I found it very stimulating.

 

The idea really makes sense. It would not make sense for God to give things that are entirely incomprehensible and expect us to follow through. There are things about God and the Gospel that we do not fully understnad, but the principles, commandments, and ordinances are easy to grasp and follow.

One minor point concerning Mike's example of Ammon teaching King Lamoni about God. Ammon's teaching that the Great Spirit that King Lamoni and his people worshiped was indeed God was entirely accurate, as it is seems that Ammon was speaking of Jesus the Christ. At that point in time Jesus the Christ, Jehovah, was indeed a spirit as He had not yet been born unto the flesh.

Glenn

[CV75]

50 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

The idea really makes sense. It would not make sense for God to give things that are entirely incomprehensible and expect us to follow through. There are things about God and the Gospel that we do not fully understnad, but the principles, commandments, and ordinances are easy to grasp and follow.

One minor point concerning Mike's example of Ammon teaching King Lamoni about God. Ammon's teaching that the Great Spirit that King Lamoni and his people worshiped was indeed God was entirely accurate, as it is seems that Ammon was speaking of Jesus the Christ. At that point in time Jesus the Christ, Jehovah, was indeed a spirit as He had not yet been born unto the flesh.

Glenn

Notable that Ammon did not charge Lamoni with worshiping a "different" Great Spirit...

Edited August 13, 2017 by CV75

[CV75]

On 8/12/2017 at 11:46 AM, Scott Lloyd said:

The transcript of this might be up on the FairMormon website by now; I haven't checked.

At any rate, here is my summary report of Mike Ash's address at the recent FairMormon Conference in which he takes up the matter of God modifying His communication to suit the capacity of mortals to understand it.

I found it very stimulating.

“Ash’s black-and-white TV metaphor was by way of explaining that God’s divine thoughts are so far above those of mortal men and women that He modifies His communication to fit the mortal capacity for understanding.”

Of course this is the case, but also the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not. Perhaps like the black and white TV, some are not turned on, and the rest that are “on” are simply not equipped for color, but once we qualify, we receive more. This retrofitting comes by grace, precept upon precept.

[Pete Ahlstrom]

20 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Faith.

I would call it blame shifting when the "answer" doesn't come.  It is part of the ruse.  It's like when the missionaries tell an investigator to keep praying when the investigator comes back and says he/she didn't get an answer.  Just keep flipping that coin until it comes up heads ..... then stop .... and for heaven's sake don't think about the many times the coin came up tails.

[Bernard Gui]

18 hours ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

I would call it blame shifting when the "answer" doesn't come.  It is part of the ruse.  It's like when the missionaries tell an investigator to keep praying when the investigator comes back and says he/she didn't get an answer.  Just keep flipping that coin until it comes up heads ..... then stop .... and for heaven's sake don't think about the many times the coin came up tails.

On the other hand, we knocked on a Costa Rican family's door, and when they opened it they said,"Oh, come in! We have been waiting for you." Both husband and wife had seen in dreams two Americans in white shirts carrying books who had an important message for them. On our second visit their oldest son had memorized all 13 Articles of Faith, they were well into the Book of Mormon and wanted to be baptized. No coins were flipped. All we did was show up.

Edited August 15, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

On 8/12/2017 at 8:46 AM, Scott Lloyd said:

The transcript of this might be up on the FairMormon website by now; I haven't checked.

At any rate, here is my summary report of Mike Ash's address at the recent FairMormon Conference in which he takes up the matter of God modifying His communication to suit the capacity of mortals to understand it.

I found it very stimulating.

 

I also interpret that scripture to show that God speaks to all people, not just LDS, and gives them light to guide them.

[Meerkat]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

I also interpret that scripture to show that God speaks to all people, not just LDS, and gives them light to guide them.

Many years ago, we visited the interpretive center at Mt. St. Helens.  On one wall was an old worn canvas with a descriptive painting of Chief Big Head asking the medicine man if the end of the world had come after the volcano had erupted in the early 1800s. The medicine man told him "No, men will come from the East with a book.  Then the end will come."  I thought that was interesting.  

[Scott Lloyd]

On 8/13/2017 at 3:32 PM, CV75 said:

“Ash’s black-and-white TV metaphor was by way of explaining that God’s divine thoughts are so far above those of mortal men and women that He modifies His communication to fit the mortal capacity for understanding.”

Of course this is the case, but also the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not. Perhaps like the black and white TV, some are not turned on, and the rest that are “on” are simply not equipped for color, but once we qualify, we receive more. This retrofitting comes by grace, precept upon precept.

True. 

To view it another way, color TV signals can be received by black-and-white television sets but can only be processed in a limited way. The same signal is much more vivid and pleasing when received by a color set.

Similarly, we can receive God's communication with our limited capacity, but we gain much more from it as our capacity increases. 

[USU78]

56 minutes ago, Meerkat said:

Many years ago, we visited the interpretive center at Mt. St. Helens.  On one wall was an old worn canvas with a descriptive painting of Chief Big Head asking the medicine man if the end of the world had come after the volcano had erupted in the early 1800s. The medicine man told him "No, men will come from the East with a book.  Then the end will come."  I thought that was interesting.  

Chief Washakie of the Shoshone is reported as having had a similar vision, leaving a document on hide.

[Scott Lloyd]

22 hours ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

I would call it blame shifting when the "answer" doesn't come.  It is part of the ruse.  It's like when the missionaries tell an investigator to keep praying when the investigator comes back and says he/she didn't get an answer.  Just keep flipping that coin until it comes up heads ..... then stop .... and for heaven's sake don't think about the many times the coin came up tails.

I view it as being more like the crystal radio set I received as a Christmas gift as a child. I would move a "cat's whisker" around on a crystal until I brought in the radio signal and heard it over head phones. The signal was always there. I just needed to have the primitive equipment correctly positioned to receive it. Once I did, the unsuccessful attempts no longer mattered.  And the unsuccessful attempts by others to bring in a signal would not have nullified the reality of my experience, despite any complaints they made about "blame shifting."

Incidentally, we had electronic AM and even FM radios when I was a kid. The crystal radio I received as a gift was only a curiosity. I'm not that old! 

See this Wilipedia link for a discussion of crystal radio receivers and a picture of a 1970s era set like the one I had in my youth. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_radio

Edited August 15, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[Bobbieaware]

On 8/13/2017 at 1:42 PM, Pete Ahlstrom said:

I don't know why God just doesn't appear and communicate. It sure would silence all the competing religions. It also could have prevented the priesthood ban derail and mountain meadows.

You're naive to believe that people would change and do the right things if God appeared to the world. In the war in heaven one-third of the spirit children of God totally rebelled against him in the most bitter spirit of hatred, and they did this in spite of the fact that they were living in God's immediate presence. Similarly, if God were to appear today and set the record straight, it would make a stir for a few days but the wicked would soon ignore and eventually forget or explain away the event. Then the situation would be made exponentially worse because now the people would continue sinning and defying God in the light of noon-day. The natural man isn't at all interested in God or his laws, and if the Lord were to stop by for a visit they wouldn't want to give him the time of day.

The only kind of visitation that might work would be one with accompanying overwhelming power and glory and a dramatic fear-inducing threat of instantaneous destruction. If the wicked knew they were about to suffer horrible deaths they might temporarily comply to save their necks but that wouldn't necessarily mean their hearts would be changed.

Edited August 15, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[Five Solas]

Michael Ash's address in a nutshell:  The Creator can't adequately communicate with His creations.   

The cynic might wonder if Ash's real motivation is to get LDS leaders off the intellectual hook for some history of discrepant teaching and errant prophecy.  Because, his listener must conclude, misunderstanding is inherent in the design.  Therefore it would be mightily unfair for anyone to criticize an LDS prophet and/or expect accountability from leadership. 

But only the cynic could think this way, naturally. 

;0)

Thank you for sharing, Scott

--Erik

[hope_for_things]

On 8/12/2017 at 9:46 AM, Scott Lloyd said:

The transcript of this might be up on the FairMormon website by now; I haven't checked.

At any rate, here is my summary report of Mike Ash's address at the recent FairMormon Conference in which he takes up the matter of God modifying His communication to suit the capacity of mortals to understand it.

I found it very stimulating.

 

Thanks for posting this, I think this was pretty good.  I liked the comments and analogy.  I think its important to remember that God communicates with us according not only to the language (English in this case) that we speak, but also I think uniquely to our individual/personal language meaning that I should only expect to find inspiration from God within the capacity I have to understand the world around me, so within my limited sphere of knowledge and biases and world view.  

God can't really work outside of those limits with respect to communicating to someone.  For example, I believe God was able to influence Einstein in ways where he discovered things that had never been discovered before.  But God could not have influenced you or I in those same ways because we don't have the intellectual capacity or foundational understanding about math and physics to discover those kinds of things. 

This is also a call for us to continue to learn and grow explore and seek new knowledge, because the more we understand, the more we can be influenced for greater good because we are able to receive inspiration only within the limits of our current understandings.  

[Meerkat]

On 8/13/2017 at 10:42 AM, Pete Ahlstrom said:

I don't know why God just doesn't appear and communicate. It sure would silence all the competing religions. It also could have prevented the priesthood ban derail and mountain meadows.

Many years ago we took an Institute class on evidences of the Book of Mormon.  It was during a time the Church owned many media outlets around the country, such as KIRO radio and TV in Seattle and newspapers and other media around the country.  My question was "Why doesn't the Church just put this on the front page of their newspapers and on the news so everyone would know?" The answer, of course, was that "evidence" is subjective.  The only way a person will gain a testimony is on their knees.

[Five Solas]

Thinking about this a little more, these communication "limits" (hope_for_things word choice) if true, must have some implication for the understanding of faith in an LDS context.  I would hypothesize that a limited god (or gods) makes an LDS member's faith in the LDS Church and its leadership even more important (vis-a-vis faith in the LDS Jesus).  Because occasional moments of incoherence notwithstanding, the Church and its leaders can make themselves understood.  Then the faith that matters most--is your faith that their intentions are best. 

You recognize (for the reasons Ash gives--language barriers, the unsearchable judgments of God, etc.) that leadership may simply have no knowledge of the will of their Creator in any given matter.  But that becomes a secondary concern. 

Do others see implications for LDS faith in Ash's idea?      

--Erik

[mfbukowski]

On 8/12/2017 at 8:46 AM, Scott Lloyd said:

The transcript of this might be up on the FairMormon website by now; I haven't checked.

At any rate, here is my summary report of Mike Ash's address at the recent FairMormon Conference in which he takes up the matter of God modifying His communication to suit the capacity of mortals to understand it.

I found it very stimulating.

 

Exactly what I have been saying again and again right here.

And now it's time to take the message to the secular world in the secular world's vocabulary.

[mfbukowski]

On 8/13/2017 at 10:42 AM, Pete Ahlstrom said:

I don't know why God just doesn't appear and communicate. It sure would silence all the competing religions. It also could have prevented the priesthood ban derail and mountain meadows.

Uh, did you miss that this is your time to figure out the answers?  Like for yourself and by yourself?  Time to put on the big boy pants!

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Five Solas said:

Michael Ash's address in a nutshell:  The Creator can't adequately communicate with His creations.   

The cynic might wonder if Ash's real motivation is to get LDS leaders off the intellectual hook for some history of discrepant teaching and errant prophecy.  Because, his listener must conclude, misunderstanding is inherent in the design.  Therefore it would be mightily unfair for anyone to criticize an LDS prophet and/or expect accountability from leadership. 

But only the cynic could think this way, naturally. 

;0)

Thank you for sharing, Scott

--Erik

Now how is it again that you know you should listen to the bible again?

Because it says you should and Jerusalem exists?

How well has God been communicating with you lately?  Like how do you know the bible is true to slavishly follow it??

Have you ever considered in your life truly that the Bible might not be true??  

We are here to reason this stuff out.  Do you know how many allegedly sacred scriptures exist on the earth?   Have you studied that?  Why pick that one because you grew up with it ??  The creator communicates with a 6 day creation, the sun stopping at Joshua's command and talking donkeys?  And so we should forget about science and go back to the stone age because that is the way God communicates?

Not the best argument.

Edited August 15, 2017 by mfbukowski

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I view it as being more like the crystal radio set I received as a Christmas gift as a child. I would move a "cat's whisker" around on a crystal until I brought in the radio signal and heard it over head phones. The signal was always there. I just needed to have the primitive equipment correctly positioned to receive it. Once I did, the unsuccessful attempts no longer mattered.  And the unsuccessful attempts by others to bring in a signal would not have nullified the reality of my experience, despite any complaints they made about "blame shifting."

Incidentally, we had electronic AM and even FM radios when I was a kid. The crystal radio I received as a gift was only a curiosity. I'm not that old! 

See this Wilipedia link for a discussion of crystal radio receivers and a picture of a 1970s era set like the one I had in my youth. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_radio

An electrical engineer in our ward in Los Alamos NM gave me one he made....in a cigar box! I was about 6 or 7. I listened to it at night in bed for years. It had these really hard black plastic headphones. I thought it was magical.

I like your analogy with the Spirit.