BoM The Musical in SLC

[california boy]

You all bring up valid points that I don't think anyone disputes.  Every person on this thread has said that the play is vulgar and does not represent Mormonism or the people of Uganda accurately. It never was the intent to do so.  And yes, some of the material is totally inappropriate.  Do they cross the line?  Absolutely and then take a few steps further.

I think what me and others are trying (unsuccessfully) to say is that it is not a play about bashing Mormonism and making it appear to be the worst delusional religion ever.  People walk away with a warmth towards the church.  You here over and over again in the reviews and from people that have actually seen the play that it has a sweetness to it.  It has heart.  Some on here are so focused on the first part of my post that they can not see or accept the second half of what I and others are saying.  If your only focus is going to be on the vulgarity and raunchiness of the play then that is fine.  You will just miss the other half that so many attending the production see.

I don't think anyone is denying that this is a very successful musical.  So there is one thing to ask yourselves.  Do you honestly believe that the reason it is so successful is because people despise the Mormon church so much  that they are willing to pay hundreds of dollars to watch a musical whose sole purpose it is to make fun of Mormonism?  Are they walking out of the theater with smiles on their face because they have spent the last two hours reviling the Mormon church?  If you believe that, then the church has much bigger issues to worry about than a broadway musical.

Edited August 8, 2017 by california boy

[pogi]

3 hours ago, california boy said:

You all bring up valid points that I don't think anyone disputes.  Every person on this thread has said that the play is vulgar and does not represent Mormonism or the people of Uganda accurately. It never was the intent to do so.  And yes, some of the material is totally inappropriate.  Do they cross the line?  Absolutely and then take a few steps further.

I think what me and others are trying (unsuccessfully) to say is that it is not a play about bashing Mormonism and making it appear to be the worst delusional religion ever.  People walk away with a warmth towards the church.  You here over and over again in the reviews and from people that have actually seen the play that it has a sweetness to it.  It has heart.  Some on here are so focused on the first part of my post that they can not see or accept the second half of what I and others are saying.  If your only focus is going to be on the vulgarity and raunchiness of the play then that is fine.  You will just miss the other half that so many attending the production see.

I don't think anyone is denying that this is a very successful musical.  So there is one thing to ask yourselves.  Do you honestly believe that the reason it is so successful is because people despise the Mormon church so much  that they are willing to pay hundreds of dollars to watch a musical whose sole purpose it is to make fun of Mormonism?  Are they walking out of the theater with smiles on their face because they have spent the last two hours reviling the Mormon church?  If you believe that, then the church has much bigger issues to worry about than a broadway musical.

Don't confuse the warmth that they display towards the church and its members as a respect for our sacred beliefs. 

"Look at those cute, sweet, silly little Mormons.  Aren't they adorable!"  The sweetness and "warmth" of the play only makes it that much more patronizing.  It is as if they want to hold my hand whilst they piss on my God. 

 

 

[The Nehor]

5 minutes ago, pogi said:

Don't confuse the warmth that they display towards the church and its members as a respect for our sacred beliefs. 

"Look at those cute, sweet, silly little Mormons.  Aren't they adorable!"  The sweetness and "warmth" of the play only makes it that much more patronizing.  It is as if they want to hold my hand whilst they piss on my God. 

 

 

No worries. We get final vindication. To quote Weird Al's song:

"A local boy kicked me in the butt last week but I smiled at him and I turned the other cheek. I really don't mind in fact I wish him well......because I'll be laughing my head off once he's burning in hell!"

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, california boy said:

I think what me and others are trying (unsuccessfully) to say is that it is not a play about bashing Mormonism and making it appear to be the worst delusional religion ever.

There is a good reason for the lack of success.

[JulieM]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

No worries. We get final vindication. To quote Weird Al's song:

"A local boy kicked me in the butt last week but I smiled at him and I turned the other cheek. I really don't mind in fact I wish him well......because I'll be laughing my head off once he's burning in hell!"

I think South Park did a skit about that 

(Same writers as BofM musical)

[sjdawg]

23 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

There is a good reason for the lack of success.

comment deleted.  Not a beneficial reply

Edited August 8, 2017 by sjdawg

[JulieM]

30 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

There is a good reason for the lack of success.

Maybe members should follow the example of their leaders regarding the play:

"As Michael Otterson, former Mormon church public affairs director, put it in a column on the church’s news outlet: 'If we Mormons really do follow Jesus Christ in our lives and look to him as an example, then it’s hard for us to ignore the injunction to turn the other cheek,'" 

Here's an article from a few days ago, praising the church's reaction;

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5984e33ae4b08b75dcc6f7cc

[Kenngo1969]

Julie M:

I bear no personal ill will toward the purveyors of The Book of Mormon: The Musical.  From a public relations standpoint, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has nothing to gain from braying shrilly over the injustices (caricatures, half-truths, outright lies, and so on) foisted upon it by the work's purveyors.  Thus, I support the Church of Jesus Christ in responding as it has.

That having been said, I reserve the right to speak my mind freely regarding the work of Parker, Stone, and Lopez.  I reserve the right to call a spade a spade, to critique this so-called work of "art," to call out the rank prejudices underlying it, and so on and so forth.  If doing so means that I'm not hewing to the Christian ethic, this is pretty far down the list of instances in which I have done (and perhaps am doing) that.

Your silence regarding my questioning members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who choose to support this rank work even though it demeans many things which are supposed to be sacred to them is telling. Would you care to comment?

Thanks,

-Ken

Edited August 8, 2017 by Kenngo1969

[Bernard Gui]

46 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Maybe members should follow the example of their leaders regarding the play:

"As Michael Otterson, former Mormon church public affairs director, put it in a column on the church’s news outlet: 'If we Mormons really do follow Jesus Christ in our lives and look to him as an example, then it’s hard for us to ignore the injunction to turn the other cheek,'" 

Here's an article from a few days ago, praising the church's reaction;

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5984e33ae4b08b75dcc6f7cc

I too praise the Church's PR reaction. It's brilliant even though I don't know how effective it has been. But what else could the Church do?

I've learned in addiction recovery that turning the other cheek does not mean being someone's doormat. On the other hand, when the local paper trumpets the return of this show to the area and gloss over its true nature, I don't hesitate exposing it for the travesty it really is. Even though I don't know how effect that has been. I don't feel less a Christian because I choose to be vocal about abuse.

Edited August 8, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[california boy]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

Don't confuse the warmth that they display towards the church and its members as a respect for our sacred beliefs. 

"Look at those cute, sweet, silly little Mormons.  Aren't they adorable!"  The sweetness and "warmth" of the play only makes it that much more patronizing.  It is as if they want to hold my hand whilst they piss on my God. 

 

 

You know, it is not like the Mormon church respects the beliefs and lifestyle choices other groups choose to make.  They thought it was their personal duty to make the decision of whether others should be allowed to marry or not..  Where was the respect for other peoples beliefs then?  Yet  you and others are all offended if people don't respect your beliefs and choices you have made.  

Like I said, "Are they walking out of the theater with smiles on their face because they have spent the last two hours reviling the Mormon church?  If you believe that, then the church has much bigger issues to worry about than a broadway musical."

[Bernard Gui]

7 hours ago, california boy said:

Do you honestly believe that the reason it is so successful is because people despise the Mormon church so much  that they are willing to pay hundreds of dollars to watch a musical whose sole purpose it is to make fun of Mormonism?

The reviewer quoted above by Calm seems to think so.

Quote

Is it as subversive as South Park? Unequivocally, The Book of Mormon is pee-in-pants funny, outrageous, shocking, which you’d expect. What you might not have seen coming are energetic and elaborate dancing, catchy tunes, insight into the nature of faith and the American hubris of spreading our brand of magic and lies all over the globe. 

The plot: A pair of Salt Lake City teenage missionaries are sent to Uganda to convert the AIDS and poverty plagued locals to Mormonism. Their only tool is a slim volume — the gospel of the American Moses, Joseph Smith. Passages from the Book are revealed to the audience slowly, each relevation nuttier than the last. Those who walked in with only a sketchy understanding of Mormonism will exit the theater more convinced of its absurdity.

 

[california boy]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

The reviewer quoted above by Calm seems to think so.

 

Well then I think the church should be asking the hard question of what it has done that has caused the public to have that kind of attitude toward the church.  I don't think they have to think very hard to find the answer. 

Quite honestly, there are a lot of people that do not have much sympathy towards a church that has shown such little respect for the beliefs civil rights and choices gay couples make.  This seems to fall directly into the " Judge not, that ye be not judged."  Kind of sucks doesn't it.

[JulieM]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Julie M:

I bear no personal ill will toward the purveyors of The Book of Mormon: The Musical.  From a public relations standpoint, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has nothing to gain from braying shrilly over the injustices (caricatures, half-truths, outright lies, and so on) foisted upon it by the work's purveyors.  Thus, I support the Church of Jesus Christ in responding as it has.

That having been said, I reserve the right to speak my mind freely regarding the work of Parker, Stone, and Lopez.  I reserve the right to call a spade a spade, to critique this so-called work of "art," to call out the rank prejudices underlying it, and so on and so forth.  If doing so means that I'm not hewing to the Christian ethic, this is pretty far down the list of instances in which I have done (and perhaps am doing) that.

Your silence regarding my questioning members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who choose to support this rank work even though it demeans many things which are supposed to be sacred to them is telling. Would you care to comment?

I haven't been silent here, so you must have me confused with someone else possibly?  I've stated this play in not for everyone and I respect other's right to feel as they do, I understand it and understand why they would not support or attend the play. 

Of course you have every right to speak "your mind freely", but others with different views have that right as well.  

I do love the church's reaction and that's why I posted it.  I feel they set a great example that we should consider following.  Kudos to them.

 

Edited August 8, 2017 by JulieM

[pogi]

44 minutes ago, california boy said:

You know, it is not like the Mormon church respects the beliefs and lifestyle choices other groups choose to make.  They thought it was their personal [moral] duty to make the decision of whether others should be allowed to marry or not..  Where was the respect for other peoples beliefs then?  Yet  you and others are all offended if people don't respect your beliefs and choices you have made.  

Being more of a libertarian, I have always disagreed with the church's stance on SSM.  Yes, I do respect other peoples beliefs and agency, even if I disagree - but even for me, there are limits.  I don't respect public mockery of other peoples sacred beliefs, for one.  You can choose to believe it or not, but I would be just as outraged at a dark, satirical, and patronizing play that publicly mocked gay people and gay marriage.  Yet when the South Park boys trample on my sacred beliefs, society gives them critical acclaim and accolades.  That is messed up!  "But they did it in such a sweet way!"

1 hour ago, california boy said:

Like I said, "Are they walking out of the theater with smiles on their face because they have spent the last two hours reviling the Mormon church?  If you believe that, then the church has much bigger issues to worry about than a broadway musical."

You are right, the church does have much bigger problems.  This play is simply a reflection of society - it has lost all manners, taste, respect, while embracing mockery of God and religion, and the filthy tongue that disgraces our sensibilities.  Society rightly would not tolerate the same treatment of Muslims and gays - why do we not deserve the same respect from society?  Is it because of the church's stance on gay marriage?  We deserve it?  Last I checked, Muslims are not keen on the idea of homosexuality either, yet for some reason, they deserve protection and respect...so that can't be the explanation.  Hmmm, I just can't explain it!  It is as if society thinks it is OK to disgrace us so long as we don't put up a big fight like gays and Muslims surely would have.  Maybe it is because we don't demand respect?

I am not asking for people to respect my beliefs.  What I am asking for is that people respect civility and the delicate treatment of sacred beliefs, and stand in defense of Muslims, gays, and, yes, even us cute, silly little Mormons alike.  

[JulieM]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

I too praise the Church's PR reaction. It's brilliant even though I don't know how effective it has been. But what else could the Church do?

You think that reaction was their only choice?  It wasn't.  There were many ways they could have responded.  But what they're doing is brilliant and very admirable, IMO.

That's why I posted about it.

[pogi]

17 minutes ago, california boy said:

Well then I think the church should be asking the hard question of what it has done that has caused the public to have that kind of attitude toward the church.  I don't think they have to think very hard to find the answer. 

Quite honestly, there are a lot of people that do not have much sympathy towards a church that has shown such little respect for the beliefs civil rights and choices gay couples make.  This seems to fall directly into the " Judge not, that ye be not judged."  Kind of sucks doesn't it.

So you are admitting that this play was in poor treatment of the LDS faith and not some sweet "love letter"?  

This play was not a retaliation for the church's position on gay marriage.  It had nothing to do with gay marriage, as you seem to think everything is about.  It was a dark satirical and patronizing mockery of religious belief in general.

 

[california boy]

9 minutes ago, pogi said:

Being more of a libertarian, I have always disagreed with the church's stance on SSM.  Yes, I do respect other peoples beliefs and agency, even if I disagree - but even for me, there are limits.  I don't respect public mockery of other peoples sacred beliefs, for one.  You can choose to believe it or not, but I would be just as outraged at a dark, satirical, and patronizing play that publicly mocked gay people and gay marriage.  Yet when the South Park boys trample on my sacred beliefs, society gives them critical acclaim and accolades.  That is messed up!  "But they did it in such a sweet way!"

You are right, the church does have much bigger problems.  This play is simply a reflection of society - it has lost all manners, taste, respect, while embracing mockery of God and religion, and the filthy tongue that disgraces our sensibilities.  Society rightly would not tolerate the same treatment of Muslims and gays - why do we not deserve the same respect from society?  Is it because of the church's stance on gay marriage?  We deserve it?  Last I checked, Muslims are not keen on the idea of homosexuality either, yet for some reason, they deserve protection and respect...so that can't be the explanation.  Hmmm, I just can't explain it!  It is as if society thinks it is OK to disgrace us so long as we don't put up a big fight like gays and Muslims surely would have.  Maybe it is because we don't demand respect?

I am not asking for people to respect my beliefs.  What I am asking for is that people respect civility and the delicate treatment of sacred beliefs, and stand in defense of Muslims, gays, and, yes, even us cute, silly little Mormons alike.  

Actually you are wrong.  More Muslims support the right for gay couples (42%) to marry in the United States than Mormons (37%).  Does that make a difference to you?  And I actually don't remember any Muslins in America trying to take away the civil rights of gay couples to marry.  

Maybe it is because the church hasn't shown respect towards other groups that have different views and choices in who they marry.  They want their version of  personal [moral] belief to be forced on others.  

While i believe that what I have brought up is very pertinent to the discussion concerning this thread, I am not going to continue to talk about gay marriage.  I think my point has been well made. And yes, I do believe there is a lot of animosity against the Mormon church as a direct result of their actions.  I have always said that the church had every right to participate in the political process.  But they also are not free from the consequences of that action.  I agree with you.  Some of that animosity towards the church may very well be directly related to both the musical and people's reaction to it.  What a shame.

[california boy]

18 minutes ago, pogi said:

So you are admitting that this play was in poor treatment of the LDS faith and not some sweet "love letter"?  

This play was not a retaliation for the church's position on gay marriage.  It had nothing to do with gay marriage, as you seem to think everything is about.  It was a dark satirical and patronizing mockery of religious belief in general.

 

I think it is a mixed bag.  And actually I do think it is related to the church's ACTIONS towards gay marriage.  I think the people at South Park didn't just arbitrarily choose the Mormon church to be the center of their play. The Mormon church has the lowest favorable opinion rating among ALL Christian and Jewish religions in the United States.  And it is tied with American Muslins as being the least favorable religion in America.  Like I said, what a shame.  I don't think it was like this when I was growing up, I certainly don't remember any animosity towards the church in California.  Now, I can't believe some the anger and animosity directed at the church.  

 

[Calm]

"The Mormon church has the lowest favorable opinion rating among ALL Christian and Jewish religions in the United States."

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865673444/Youre-getting-warmer-2-Pew-studies-Americans-feelings-toward-religious-groups-including.html

"The “warming” trend in regard to those of the LDS faith is more of a substantial bump than what Pew saw in a separate study in 2012 — the year of presidential candidate Mitt Romney, “The Book of Mormon” musical on Broadway, Time magazine’s “Mormon moment” and the LDS Church’s own promotional campaigns. The 2012 Pew study found that while Americans learned little of the Mormons and their faith, some attitudes did soften."

[USU78]

51 minutes ago, pogi said:

This play was not a retaliation for the church's position on gay marriage.  It had nothing to do with gay marriage, as you seem to think everything is about.

[Calm]

"certainly don't remember any animosity towards the church in California."

In my experience in California, they generally just thought we were naive, racist idiots.

Edited August 8, 2017 by Calm

[USU78]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

"certainly don't remember any animosity towards the church in California."

In my experience in California, they generally just thought we were naive, racist, idiots.

Oh yeah, all Californians are just peachykeen over Mormons.  

 

[Calm]

CB was saying prior to Prop 8 it was pretty mellow if I understand him correctly, which was in 2008, so you just confirmed his POV.

Edited August 8, 2017 by Calm

[pogi]

59 minutes ago, california boy said:

And actually I do think it is related to the church's ACTIONS towards gay marriage.  I think the people at South Park didn't just arbitrarily choose the Mormon church to be the center of their play. 

Quote

 

Actually, I think you are wrong.  It sounds pretty arbitrary to me, and certainly nothing in retaliation for the actions on gay marriage.

Here are some snippets from interviews with Matt Stone and Trey Parker:

On producer Scott Rudin’s advice, Parker and Stone went to see the writer-composer’s Tony-winning Avenue Q, then took him for a drink.

“Bobby said, ‘I want to do something about Joseph Smith,’ ” recalls Stone, the younger and more extroverted of the South Park duo, referrring to the founder of the Mormon religion. “And we were like: ‘Wait! We want to do something about Joseph Smith!’ [Totally arbitrary]

Growing up in Colorado, next door to Utah, Parker and Stone had long been familiar with the Mormon church and its members; Parker even dated a Mormon girl and was badly hurt when she ditched him.

They had first thought of a fictionalized Smith while working on an aborted Fox TV series about historical characters. Now, with Lopez, they started bandying about more concrete ideas — though they weren’t sure if their work would lead to a play or a film or something else altogether — only to realize Smith didn’t provide a strong enough hook.

“Within a few days, we were like, ‘Nah!’ ” Parker says. “We pretty quickly got to a modern story.”

This new version revolved around two young men who would go into the world on behalf of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a missionary task that’s obligatory for all Mormons. Precisely who they would be and where they would go remained undetermined.

 

And this:

Quote

 

"I don't think anybody would want to see a two-hour-long Mormon-bashing, and we wouldn't want to see that either," Parker tells Fresh Air's Terry Gross. "We love the goofiness of Mormon stories. Some of them are incredulous, and we loved almost all the Mormons that we had ever met. So this was sort of this conundrum that we like to talk about — we think what they believe is really, really ridiculous, and yet they seem like pretty happy people."

Parker: I’ve been fascinated with the Mormons for a long time. They are the nicest people in the world. If a religion’s going to take over the world, and the one that really believes “just be super nice to everyone” takes over, that’s all right with me.

reason magazine: I have Mormon friends who are convinced you guys were raised Mormon, because of some of the references in the show.

Parker: Well, we grew up in Colorado. Colorado’s right next to Utah–you know, Mormon Central. My first girlfriend was Mormon, and I went to experience family home evening at her house for the first time. “What are you all doing?” “We’re sitting, and we’re singing songs and playing games together.” I was like, “Boy, that’s f****d up. Families are not supposed to be doing that.”

Yet South Park's treatment of religion, like its treatment of politics, is never simplistic, stupid, or uninformed. Indeed, Matt and Trey's 1997 movie Orgazmo, which centers around a young Mormon missionary who ends up taking on the role of a superhero porn star, clearly reflects not only a great deal of knowledge of the Latter-day Saints but some real affection for the group. 

 

You see, this duo have long been fascinated with Mormons and long mocked their beliefs in cartoons, movies (long before prop 8 ) and now a play.  This had nothing to do with gay marriage....absolutely nothing! 

 

[The Nehor]

57 minutes ago, Calm said:

"certainly don't remember any animosity towards the church in California."

In my experience in California, they generally just thought we were naive, racist idiots.

"Naive Racist Idiots" would be a good band name.