BoM The Musical in SLC

[Calm]

6 hours ago, JulieM said:

But you're not correct on the other two (iirc), those topics weren't joked about and especially the FGM was handled with outrage and horror (as it should be).

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/valerie-frankel/god-must-be-crazy-the-boo_b_832394.html

"I can say with complete certainty that no other Broadway musical in history has used baby rape and female genital mutilation as comic plot devices — and none will again"

"all the lyrics get darker, clearer, funnier – to be about Aids, baby-rape"

https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2013/mar/24/book-of-mormon-review

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9984600/British-Mormons-take-on-The-Book-of-Mormon.html

"it makes jokes related to baby rape, female circumcision and Aids"

Do I need to go on?

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Daniel2 said:

...From my perspective, the creators are making the point that many of the deplorable conditions that the Africans have to live with day by day ARE inherently offensive to audience members (rampant violence, immorality, raping babies, female genital mutilation, etc) and they SHOULD be inherently offensive, but that sometimes, it's necessary to confront offensive topics in an effort to find ways to alleviate suffering, abuse, injustice, and the horrors that face inhabitants in some third-world countries, and in the face of the failure of political movements, religion has an inherent strength to help in such circumstances, and that no religious ideal is or should be so sacred or untouchable or non-adaptable that it can't or shouldn't be employed in an innovative, useful way to save human lives and/or end human suffering.

Are you saying the purpose and intent of this play is to inspire religious activism in 3rd world countries?  That is a creative spin!  Just about every review I have read calls The Book of Mormon a satirical look at Mormonism and religion in general.  It is a satire, as in "the use of humor, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule to expose and criticize people's stupidity or vices..."  One reviewer said that one of the messages of the play is that "religions can do good so long as they don't really believe in their religious teachings."  Great message, and not insulting at all, kudos! 

The question for me is, should society openly embrace and celebrate sacred satire and the mocking of religious belief?  Should we brush off and even laugh at the words "F*** God right back in his c***?" because it is only satirical?  Kudos for writing those lyrics?  Should we turn a blind eye to those lyrics because we are not taking them in the "whole context"?  That is like turning a blind eye to a murderer because in the context of his whole life, he was a decent man.  No, I will not give kudos for dark satire of any religion.  I don't support pissing on the sacred worship of other faiths through dark humor. 

 I haven't seen the play, and after reading some of the lyrics in this thread, I never intend to.  Even the New York Times columnist, David Brooks observed that "The central theme of 'The Book of Mormon' is that many religious stories are silly."  

The Wall Street Journal's Bret Stephens said

"So let's get this straight: In the consensus view of modern American liberalism, it is hilarious to mock Mormons and Mormonism but outrageous to mock Muslims and Islam," he wrote. "Why?”

Theodore P. Mahne, writing for the New Orleans Times-Picayune after the show opened in New Orleans in 2013, called the production "little more than degrading, offensive trash."

"The details of Mormon theology are unfamiliar to most who are not a part of that faith," Mahne wrote. "But the exaggerations and mocking of those beliefs are simply insulting. And the overriding attack on religious faith, in general, is blasphemously offensive."

the Salt Lake Tribune published an op-ed by Salt Lake City native Kate Wilson titled "Why is 'Book of Mormon' play tolerated and even praised?"

"Although I never identified with Mormonism, growing up in Salt Lake City made me hyper-aware of the Broadway hit's offensiveness," Wilson wrote. "Would my childhood classmates be ashamed to call me their friend if they were to witness my laughter in the theater that mocked the foundation of their religion and lifestyle?"

In an interview with abc Matt Stone and Trey Parker were interviewed.  They were asked "What do Mormons generally think of your musical?"  Trey Parker stated that "there are a select few who like it", then Matt Stone continues, "Maybe they like that someone's paying attention to them?"  

Not even the authors can come up with a good reason for why any Mormon would like the play.  It seems clear that their intent is to lampoon Mormonism and religion in general. 
 

[Bernard Gui]

30 minutes ago, Analytics said:

My point is that the experience matters. I suppose somebody could pick up some sheet music and if they have the right skills could audialize it in their mind. Or they might listen to bits of it on YouTube. But it's a different experience to go to symphony hall and experience it live. There are nuances and a cumulative effect of the scenes that are hard to otherwise appreciate.

Really, my only point on this thread is to try and represent the viewpoint of the people who find the show uplifting and neither see nor feel the spite that others see in it. I wouldn't argue with somebody who says, "I wouldn't want to see that show because the language offends me." In contrast, I would want to argue with people who say things like, "That show has no redeeming qualities and does nothing but mock religion for cheap laughs, and anybody who thinks otherwise is lying."

With that, I've said my piece. Thanks for starting this thread. The last word is yours.

And far better to be able to compare and discuss the interpretations of Bernstein, Fischer, Rattle, Levine, Muti, Ozawa, Dudamel, Imbal, Haitink, von Karajan, Mehta, Ormandy, Rainier, and Gui, of course.

What if the audiences lined up for your local symphony orchestra or theater company or school play like they do for this thing? It saddens me that our culture puts such extraordinary value on mockery, ridicule, and obscenity when there is such beauty available. For me, that's the bottom line.

You have yet to respond to my question, and you don't have to....could they have made the same points without the vulgarity? I think so. In which case, I might be tempted, I say tempted, to see it.

Thanks for participating. I appreciate your point of view, your candor and willingness to engage over a long thread.

Edited August 7, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

30 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Probably not at the part...that part is vulger

Indeed.

[Amulek]

13 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

You said it wasn't on Vimeo. I just watched part of it on Vimeo. Either it is or it isn't.

That's not exactly what I said. I said the only full-length version of the play on Vimeo is a bootlegged copy.

You said you watched the entire production online. There is no authorized version of the entire production available online. You either watched a pirated copy or you didn't. 

 

[Bernard Gui]

28 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

But I'm guessing that you enjoyed Sister Act or The Sound of Music which lampoons certain aspects of the Catholic faith right?

Not sure how Catholics were lampooned in Sound of Music.

[Bernard Gui]

27 minutes ago, JulieM said:

That's the point.  You do feel and experience something different when being there in person and seeing it live.

 

We are talking past each other. Of course you feel and experience something different seeing it live. That's the emotional

part of performance. My objection is to the vulgarity and disrespect, not the flashiness of the dance numbers, the zingy

dialogue, or the pop music tracks. Do you think the writers could have made the same points without the obscenity?

Edited August 7, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

4 minutes ago, Amulek said:

That's not exactly what I said. I said the only full-length version of the play on Vimeo is a bootlegged copy.

You said you watched the entire production online. There is no authorized version of the entire production available online. You either watched a pirated copy or you didn't. 

 

Well, if it's pirated as you say, why does Vimeo allow it to stay up? I have the entire musical available and it's on vimeo.com.

Edited August 7, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Kenngo1969]

Bernard Gui:

Quote

What if the audiences lined up for your local symphony orchestra or theater company or school play like they do for this thing? It saddens me that our culture puts such extraordinary value on mockery, ridicule, and obscenity when there is such beauty available. For me, that's the bottom line.

Quoted for truth.  That is all.

[Bernard Gui]

16 minutes ago, Calm said:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/valerie-frankel/god-must-be-crazy-the-boo_b_832394.html

"I can say with complete certainty that no other Broadway musical in history has used baby rape and female genital mutilation as comic plot devices — and none will again"

"all the lyrics get darker, clearer, funnier – to be about Aids, baby-rape"

https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2013/mar/24/book-of-mormon-review

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9984600/British-Mormons-take-on-The-Book-of-Mormon.html

"it makes jokes related to baby rape, female circumcision and Aids"

Do I need to go on?

You see, this is what I do not understand. And there's more even worse. How can this be defended, even by non-Mormons? It's a mystery to me.

Edited August 7, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

19 minutes ago, pogi said:

Are you saying the purpose and intent of this play is to inspire religious activism in 3rd world countries?  That is a creative spin!  Just about every review I have read calls The Book of Mormon a satirical look at Mormonism and religion in general.  It is a satire, as in "the use of humor, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule to expose and criticize people's stupidity or vices..."  One reviewer said that one of the messages of the play is that "religions can do good so long as they don't really believe in their religious teachings."  Great message, and not insulting at all, kudos! 

The question for me is, should society openly embrace and celebrate sacred satire and the mocking of religious belief?  Should we brush off and even laugh at the words "F*** God right back in his c***?" because it is only satirical?  Kudos for writing those lyrics?  Should we turn a blind eye to those lyrics because we are not taking them in the "whole context"?  That is like turning a blind eye to a murderer because in the context of his whole life, he was a decent man.  No, I will not give kudos for dark satire of any religion.  I don't support pissing on the sacred worship of other faiths through dark humor. 

 I haven't seen the play, and after reading some of the lyrics in this thread, I never intend to.  Even the New York Times columnist, David Brooks observed that "The central theme of 'The Book of Mormon' is that many religious stories are silly."  

The Wall Street Journal's Bret Stephens said

"So let's get this straight: In the consensus view of modern American liberalism, it is hilarious to mock Mormons and Mormonism but outrageous to mock Muslims and Islam," he wrote. "Why?”

Theodore P. Mahne, writing for the New Orleans Times-Picayune after the show opened in New Orleans in 2013, called the production "little more than degrading, offensive trash."

"The details of Mormon theology are unfamiliar to most who are not a part of that faith," Mahne wrote. "But the exaggerations and mocking of those beliefs are simply insulting. And the overriding attack on religious faith, in general, is blasphemously offensive."

the Salt Lake Tribune published an op-ed by Salt Lake City native Kate Wilson titled "Why is 'Book of Mormon' play tolerated and even praised?"

"Although I never identified with Mormonism, growing up in Salt Lake City made me hyper-aware of the Broadway hit's offensiveness," Wilson wrote. "Would my childhood classmates be ashamed to call me their friend if they were to witness my laughter in the theater that mocked the foundation of their religion and lifestyle?"

In an interview with abc Matt Stone and Trey Parker were interviewed.  They were asked "What do Mormons generally think of your musical?"  Trey Parker stated that "there are a select few who like it", then Matt Stone continues, "Maybe they like that someone's paying attention to them?"  

Not even the authors can come up with a good reason for why any Mormon would like the play.  It seems clear that their intent is to lampoon Mormonism and religion in general. 
 

This! Thank you for gathering these.

The "it's purpose is to call attention to atrocities in Africa" is a new one for me. And I've read a lot of reviews.

Edited August 7, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Kenngo1969]

8 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Not sure how Catholics were lampooned in Sound of Music.

Lampooning is one thing: Lampooning with the degree of crudity and vulgarity that occurs in The Book of Mormon: The Musical is a whole, whole 'nuther thing.

[Amulek]

19 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Well, if it's pirated as you say, why does Vimeo allow it to stay up?

"As I say." That's rich. Are you really going to try and argue that the cam footage from some guy's cellphone isn't a bootleg copy of the production?

As for why it's still up (if you mean that to be a serious question) it's probably because they haven't received a DMCA take-down notice yet. 

 

Quote

I have the entire musical available and it's on vimeo.com.

And I have the entire Lord of the Rings trilogy (along with almost any other popular movie, album, or television program) available on The Pirate Bay. 

Seriously, just because you can find something on the internet doesn't mean it's legal. You know that, right?

 

Edited August 7, 2017 by Amulek
Edit to fix weird format issue.

[USU78]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

You see, this is what I do not understand. And there's more even worse. How can this be defended, even by non-Mormons? It's a mystery to me.

You understand better than you know:  were Mormons taken out of the equation, nobody would put up with that dreck for a moment.  And that's awfully sad.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

 

The "it's purpose is to call attention to atrocities in Africa" is a new one for me. And I've read a lot of reviews.

From what I have read, the writers took no time to actually familiarize themselves with the issues beyond reading news headlines.

They show no familiarity with or respect for Ugandan culture.  They are deeply religious, very tech savvy when it comes to cell phones.  It is unlikely the reaction would be to curse God in such a fashion.  That is a first world European culture reaction in many ways, Imo.

If this is supposed to be a 'typical' African village, again there is an inherent lack of awareness.  The idea that they are somehow bringing awareness to the tragedy of FGM when they blame it on a local warlord's fear of its mystical power rather than the actual deeply embedded tradition that is carried on by mothers and grandmothers as well as fathers.  From the script that I won't link to due to language:

"Here you don't protect anyone! We have not signed up for your rebellion! It is just a gang of thugs who steal and mutliate women for no reason!

General:

For no reeason?! [walks up to the man] The clitoris... is an abomination! It's hoodoo power... has brought a warth upon Uganda and it must be cast out!."

It does no good to publicize a problem while ignoring what the actual problem is.  Such an ignorant and lazy and counterproductive approach if they for one minute actually went to 'we need to do something about FGM!'  Leaves the audience less aware of the issue than when they walked into the theatre.

Edited August 8, 2017 by Calm

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

You see, this is what I do not understand. And there's more even worse. How can this be defended, even by non-Mormons? It's a mystery to me.

More than a few non-Mormons have decried this piece of ... art  ... for its notable crassness and crudity.  It's a pity that even those non-Mormons know something that seems to be lost on so many of my fellow Latter-day Saints.

[Calm]

https://eladbenelul.wordpress.com/2013/07/11/the-book-of-mormon-humour-aside-the-joke-was-on-who/ (some language due to repeating the script)

"Now, anyone with a slight post-colonial awareness can spot the extremely problematic narrative and themes brought in this story immediately- an extremely stereotypical and old fashioned portrayal of contemporary Africa and Africaness, which is a primitive and deprived place lacking any spirituality or wisdom, simply waiting to be saved by the white man and his book of progress. But the problem is double- 1. Not many people have a post-colonial awareness 2. With the mask of good humour and satire, the spectator is encouraged to believe that these are only jokes and that the show is actually dedicated to mock Mormons and not Africans. Let’s de construct these claims.....

In this scene the writers tell us- we’re not going to show you the stereotypical Lion King Africa, but the “real” one. As one of the show’s stars claimed in an interview for The Guardian, “I think the show is partly a comment on American blindness about what Africa is actually like. They think it’s like The Lion King”. And what Africa “actually is” according to the show? A village struck with poverty and dirt, where EVERYONE has aids, where technology or medicine were not yet introduced and where rape, illiteracy, killing, female circumcision and despair are random and even funny everyday things (I am even shocked while writing this!). The only “native” [me:  in quotes because the words are made up because they were too lazy to look them up or figure out how to work them into actual lyrics] language words in the show mean “*********" and are presented as the village’s motto to portray their low morals and lack of faith- of course all is decorated with jokes and catchy music with the constant reminding- this is South Park, it’s a liberal satire – not racism.

Not once were the stereotypes and clichés broken, questioned or challenged (except those about Mormonism) and not once did we get a glimpse to the wisdom and wealth of indigenous African tribes, the growing technological innovation and advancement in Uganda and the basic pride and knowledge of what it means to be African, that not one of the characters seem to have. Instead, ignorance and lies were immortalised as the villagers in the play (apart from raping babies to cure aids) are under constant threat of the leadership (General *****, who also happens to be a cruel murderer and a homosexual), to perform female circumcision on all the women in the village. Just a few facts about Uganda you will never hear about in the musical:

1. Christianity was first introduced in Uganda in 1877 and today 85% of the country is Christian! Instead what we see is not only non-Christians, but non believers whatsoever, as if before Christianity Africans lacked any dimension of spiritual belief.

2. About 12 percent of Ugandans are Muslims and most female circumcision is performed amongst that community (and not as part of Africa’s local “pagan” religions as described in the play). Moreover, the Ugandan government (amongst many other African countries) outlawed this practice and been working on eliminating it for many years. Many voices within Islam as well fight to protect the young girls who are being circumcised and the issue is hardly appropriate as a joke.

3. Ugandan cities have rapidly grown with the British colonial project and the country is now rich with busy metropolises with skyscrapers, luxurious hotels and shopping districts and a growing technological advancement and innovation with international impacts.  There is a very strong decline of rural village life as more and more people move to the social hub of the city to get academic education and professional training.

4. Mobile phones are integral and essential in many African countries- with the lack of access to wireless internet in many areas, mobile phones are used in many creative ways to allow intercity communication. According to this article, farmers in Uganda use mobile phones to order supplies, monitor crops, collect data and insure their fields. The growth of the mobile phone market in Africa is actually three times higher than anywhere in the world! Of course, in the liberal and witty satire of the Broadway show, what we see is a young tribal woman walking around holding an old typing machine thinking she is “texting” people as a joke about how Africans were not yet informed about the wonder of mobile phones.

5.... Parody or not, the concept is clear: the woman is an empty vessel with unfulfilled fertility that awaits for a man to turn her into something good. The black woman is objectified and exotified as a fetishistic subject to be conquered. The “barbaric” sexuality of the natives was also seen... This discourse was common during Colonialism when the lands of Africa, Australia and America were seen as fertile yet empty land, awaiting their arrival and are only completed once the settlers seed their sperm in them. Moreover, when history of rape, slavery and colonialism are still so recent and understudied, and as the two do not even end up being together, the scene was a disgrace to theatre and took us many steps back to very dark days."

Randomly changing a few things in order to get the censor to accept it

[The Nehor]

20 minutes ago, Calm said:

https://eladbenelul.wordpress.com/2013/07/11/the-book-of-mormon-humour-aside-the-joke-was-on-who/ (some language due to repeating the script)

"Now, anyone with a slight post-colonial awareness can spot the extremely problematic narrative and themes brought in this story immediately- an extremely stereotypical and old fashioned portrayal of contemporary Africa and Africaness, which is a primitive and deprived place lacking any spirituality or wisdom, simply waiting to be saved by the white man and his book of progress. But the problem is double- 1. Not many people have a post-colonial awareness 2. With the mask of good humour and satire, the spectator is encouraged to believe that these are only jokes and that the show is actually dedicated to mock Mormons and not Africans. Let’s de construct these claims.....

In this scene the writers tell us- we’re not going to show you the stereotypical Lion King Africa, but the “real” one. As one of the show’s stars claimed in an interview for The Guardian, “I think the show is partly a comment on American blindness about what Africa is actually like. They think it’s like The Lion King”. And what Africa “actually is” according to the show? A village struck with poverty and dirt, where EVERYONE has aids, where technology or medicine were not yet introduced and where rape, illiteracy, killing, female circumcision and despair are random and even funny everyday things (I am even shocked while writing this!). The only “native” [me:  in quotes because the words are made up because they were too lazy to look them up or figure out how to work them into actual lyrics] language words in the show mean “*********" and are presented as the village’s motto to portray their low morals and lack of faith- of course all is decorated with jokes and catchy music with the constant reminding- this is South Park, it’s a liberal satire – not racism.

Not once were the stereotypes and clichés broken, questioned or challenged (except those about Mormonism) and not once did we get a glimpse to the wisdom and wealth of indigenous African tribes, the growing technological innovation and advancement in Uganda and the basic pride and knowledge of what it means to be African, that not one of the characters seem to have. Instead, ignorance and lies were immortalised as the villagers in the play (apart from raping babies to cure aids) are under constant threat of the leadership (General *****, who also happens to be a cruel murderer and a homosexual), to perform female circumcision on all the women in the village. Just a few facts about Uganda you will never hear about in the musical:

1. Christianity was first introduced in Uganda in 1877 and today 85% of the country is Christian! Instead what we see is not only non-Christians, but non believers whatsoever, as if before Christianity Africans lacked any dimension of spiritual belief.

2. About 12 percent of Ugandans are Muslims and most female circumcision is performed amongst that community (and not as part of Africa’s local “pagan” religions as described in the play). Moreover, the Ugandan government (amongst many other African countries) outlawed this practice and been working on eliminating it for many years. Many voices within Islam as well fight to protect the young girls who are being circumcised and the issue is hardly appropriate as a joke.

3. Ugandan cities have rapidly grown with the British colonial project and the country is now rich with busy metropolises with skyscrapers, luxurious hotels and shopping districts and a growing technological advancement and innovation with international impacts.  There is a very strong decline of rural village life as more and more people move to the social hub of the city to get academic education and professional training.

4. Mobile phones are integral and essential in many African countries- with the lack of access to wireless internet in many areas, mobile phones are used in many creative ways to allow intercity communication. According to this article, farmers in Uganda use mobile phones to order supplies, monitor crops, collect data and insure their fields. The growth of the mobile phone market in Africa is actually three times higher than anywhere in the world! Of course, in the liberal and witty satire of the Broadway show, what we see is a young tribal woman walking around holding an old typing machine thinking she is “texting” people as a joke about how Africans were not yet informed about the wonder of mobile phones.

5.... Parody or not, the concept is clear: the woman is an empty vessel with unfulfilled fertility that awaits for a man to turn her into something good. The black woman is objectified and exotified as a fetishistic subject to be conquered. The “barbaric” sexuality of the natives was also seen... This discourse was common during Colonialism when the lands of Africa, Australia and America were seen as fertile yet empty land, awaiting their arrival and are only completed once the settlers seed their sperm in them. Moreover, when history of rape, slavery and colonialism are still so recent and understudied, and as the two do not even end up being together, the scene was a disgrace to theatre and took us many steps back to very dark days."

Randomly changing a few things in order to get the censor to accept it

This guy says what I thought much better then I did.

[Analytics]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

You have yet to respond to my question, and you don't have to....could they have made the same points without the vulgarity?

That's an interesting question. It's said that using comedy to address taboo subjects has gone back at least as far as Aristophanes. I suppose if the vulgar jokes were toned down, the play would have become more heartbreaking. They could have then toned down the content and it would have become drab. If they made it happy without the intense drama would it be superficial? I readily concede that there are many ways to make the same point, but whether the finished product would have been better or not is unknowable. It's a hypothetical like asking if God could have implemented the Plan of Salvation without having a priesthood ban. Paraphrasing our friend Charles Anton, I can't review a play that hasn't been written.

[Johnnie Cake]

3 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Lampooning is one thing: Lampooning with the degree of crudity and vulgarity that occurs in The Book of Mormon: The Musical is a whole, whole 'nuther thing.

I agree...BoM musical is vulgar 

[JulieM]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/valerie-frankel/god-must-be-crazy-the-boo_b_832394.html

"I can say with complete certainty that no other Broadway musical in history has used baby rape and female genital mutilation as comic plot devices — and none will again"

"all the lyrics get darker, clearer, funnier – to be about Aids, baby-rape"

https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2013/mar/24/book-of-mormon-review

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9984600/British-Mormons-take-on-The-Book-of-Mormon.html

"it makes jokes related to baby rape, female circumcision and Aids"

Do I need to go on?

I honestly do not remember any jokes about those.  The whole topic of FGM is very disturbing for me and I remember it being handled with horror and with characters trying to hide or protect the young girl in the play from it being done to her.  I'm only going on my memory of it and I admit it was several years ago.  I'm not doubting what you found.

[Kenngo1969]

29 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I agree...BoM musical is vulgar 

You may be surprised to read this, but, actually, I'd give you a rep point for this ... if'n ah could.  

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, Amulek said:

As for why it's still up (if you mean that to be a serious question) it's probably because they haven't received a DMCA take-down notice yet. 

It's an honest question. It's been there for over a year...maybe two or more. I'm not hip to Vimeo usage and procedures. Apparently you are. Now back to the topic.

Edited August 8, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, Analytics said:

I can't review a play that hasn't been written.

Just asking for your opinion. 

[sjdawg]

I don't think anyone is arguing that the Book of Mormon musical isn't crude and vulgar.  It absolutely is. I have a pretty high threshold for language and at times I was even shocked at the boundaries that the production crossed. It isn't for everyone and wasn't intended for everyone. I didn't, however, find it as disrespectful to Mormon beliefs as I expected. I can't imagine anyone there  leaving the production thinking that was an accurate portrayal of what Mormon's belief or what Ugandans are like in real life.  It is entertainment.   Just like an R-Rated movie not everyone should attend and some will enjoy it and others will not. Neither side is necessary wrong but just have differing opinions on what is entertaining.

 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2017 by sjdawg