BoM The Musical in SLC

[gopher]

I'm a bit disappointed to see those who regularly criticize the Church and its members support and defend this play.  This could have been an opportunity to help bridge the gap and restore trust with those who defend the church.  I get South Park humor.  But Bernard and others have clearly laid out the reasons why anyone who professes to believe in tolerance, respect, and understanding should not see this play.  It can cause you to lose the moral high ground and your criticisms of the church start to ring hollow.  It is sad that in this day of increased sensitivities to other cultures, beliefs, and lifestyles that this play has become such a success.  But that's just the world we live in.
 

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, Calm said:

I can get enjoying something where the language more or less happens in between the good stuff or the language is the point a few times in the story for shock value, increasing the pace of the story for a moment.  I don't like roller coasters or horror movies, but I get that some people do.

However, when vulgarity becomes a major theme or the major theme as the script appears to make it to me, I don't get the enjoyment there.  Eating something extremely sour may, if done right, enhance a sweet dessert (or ruin it if not done right), but eating all extremely sour just dulls the taste in the long run.  A slasher movie that is all slash and no suspense or plot I hear gets boring, not thrilling.

I agree. It is a lazy way to write. It seems however, that writers and viewers cannot get satiated with certain "naughty" shock words. What used to be the uncommon is now demanded. 

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, gopher said:

I'm a bit disappointed to see those who regularly criticize the Church and its members support and defend this play.  This could have been an opportunity to help bridge the gap and restore trust with those who defend the church.  I get South Park humor.  But Bernard and others have clearly laid out the reasons why anyone who professes to believe in tolerance, respect, and understanding should not see this play.  It can cause you to lose the moral high ground and your criticisms of the church start to ring hollow.  It is sad that in this day of increased sensitivities to other cultures, beliefs, and lifestyles that this play has become such a success.  But that's just the world we live in.
 

Perhaps it's generational. Being a fogey of the old school, I grew up in an environment where the shock words were those that fall from the mouths of babies in Disney movies today. I cannot see the brilliance in writing that depends on cascades of foul words and images. One of the lies told about BOMTM is that it follows in the traditions and footsteps of the great old musicals. Well, no, it does not. The script, plot, and music are mediocre. The gross obscenities sell the show. Period. They got their awards the cheap and easy way. This is notable given the juxtaposition of their extreme profanity with a religion that eschews even the mildest swearing to the point that it's members make up their own swear words like flip, flippen, scrud, oh my heck, and snap. Apparently modern audiences and critics confuse titillation with entertainment. Perhaps as the culture becomes coarser, they unknowingly expect less. We certainly are getting less.

Edited August 11, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

12 hours ago, Dexter Eli said:

13 hours ago, Dexter Eli said:

I want world hunger to end but wishing it doesn't make it happen.

 

Zucchinis could be a solution. In the meantime, 

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org.ng/article/first-public-borehole-in-amaeke-item-community

[thesometimesaint]

15 hours ago, Dexter Eli said:

I think you are making too much of this.

I am thrilled that we live in a society where religions can be mocked without those who mock being killed, tortured or imprisoned.  

I am sickened by cowardly media groups who allow threats from some religions to scare them into NOT expressing their views.  (those who didn't support Jyllands-Posten)

It's not as complicated as many make it out to be. Do you want a society where religion trumps freedom of speech?  I certainly don't. 

Is the BOM Musical offensive? It certainly is to many, including myself. Am I glad I live in a country where it can be put on? ABSOLUTELY! 

Besides, the church should just view it as any publicity is good publicity so what's the harm? 

Laws against such productions? Absolutely Not. The good taste to not indulge in, or support such? Absolutely Yes. I don't mock other's religions or lack thereof, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with them.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Perhaps it's generational. Being a fogey of the old school, I grew up in an environment where the shock words were those that fall from the mouths of babies in Disney movies today. I cannot see the brilliance in writing that depends on cascades of foul words and images. One of the lies told about BOMTM is that it follows in the traditions and of footsteps of the great old musicals. Well, no, it does not. The script, plot, and music are mediocre. The gross obscenities sell the show. Period. They got their awards the cheap and easy way. This is notable given the juxtaposition of their extreme profanity with a religion that eschews even the mildest swearing to the point that it's members make up their own swear words like flip, flippen, scrud, oh my heck, and snap. Apparently modern audiences and critics confuse titillation with entertainment. Perhaps as the culture becomes coarser, they unknowingly expect less. We certainly are getting less.

[Bolded above for reference.]

That being the case, it is easy to explain the presence of the vulgarity in TBOMM. Tittilation is like drug-induced high. One develops a tolerance and it takes larger and more frequent doses to bring about the same effect.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

 

Zucchinis could be a solution. In the meantime, 

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org.ng/article/first-public-borehole-in-amaeke-item-community

Zucchinis are the only crop I can grow with an acceptable degree of reliability. They seem to grow larger by the hour regardless of the attention (or fertiiztion or cultivation) I give them.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

[Bolded above for reference.]

That being the case, it is easy to explain the presence of the vulgarity in TBOMM. Tittilation is like drug-induced high. One develops a tolerance and it takes larger and more frequent doses to bring about the same effect.

Indeed. Note the mainstream triumph of this incredibly foul production. 

Edited August 11, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Zucchinis are the only crop I can grow with an acceptable degree of reliability. They seem to grow larger by the hour regardless of the attention (or fertiiztion or cultivation) I give them.

Mine are growing as we speak. One plant can feed an entire city.

[Tacenda]

1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said:

Mine are growing as we speak. One plant can feed an entire city.

Every day I almost pity those that get asked if they need any zucchini. They freeze well, so I will use them in the winter for baking I hope. 

[pogi]

15 hours ago, california boy said:

I haven't defended the obscene language and gestures in the play at all.  None.  Nothing.  You are welcome as well as others to express that disgust.  

On the other hand I tried to bring up possibilities as to why the public has such a dislike for the Mormon church.  This doesn't happen in a vacuum.  Do you think anyone wants to discuss the reasons why society is so accepting of this?  So far no.

 

Interesting perspective.  But I think you would agree that we live in a society where everyone is allowed to say whatever they want about whoever or whatever they want.  (The whole free speech thing.)  But that doesn't mean that there are consequences.  When a person pays to go to a performance, what is said is not forced on anyone who happens to be within ear range.  That is why saying similar things in Walmart or at your office would have such consequences as getting kicked out of the store or fired from your workplace.  I think you are saying that you also see the difference.

Now the question you raise is why do some people that do pay for a theater ticket not get criticized for paying for that kind of language and disrespect for a religion.  Perhaps those attending the theater believe the church doesn't deserve the respect that it is asking for.  Perhaps when a church doesn't allow a person full participation in their religion simply because of the color of their skin or allow a gay couple the right to their beliefs and choices they make, the church looses that respect among much of the public.  There are consequences for that kind of speech as well.  Specifically the Pew poll that I quoted shows that almost half of the American people have a negative view of the church.  I think that a large part of those negative feelings against Mormonism is a direct result of the church's own actions and policies.  Respect is not freely given.  It has to be earned.

I am honestly trying to see your perspective, but I am not persuaded by this argument at all.  Are you suggesting that if prop 8 never happened, that this play would have been publicly denounced and would have miserably failed in the box-office?  Or, that if the priesthood ban never happened, people would not find our sacred beliefs ridiculous and hilariously mock-able?    

The reason that this play was successful is because the authors and society perceive us likable and friendly (as portrayed in the play) yet out-of-touch with our "ridiculous" beliefs - as in 'worthy of ridicule' or 'laughable'.  People are not revenge-viewing as you pretend.

I don't require that anyone respect my beliefs, but if we want to live in a society that is conscientious of the significance and beauty of religious diversity and diversity of beliefs in general, and also of friendliness/civility; if we want to live in a society where people are not ridiculed for their deeply held sacred beliefs, than I do expect a greater level of sensitivity to incredibly sacred topics.  While I don't demand respect for my personal religious beliefs (or anyone else's), I do defend cultural and religious diversity and sensitivity.  I also defend the free speech of these authors, but will with that free speech, call them out.

[Bernard Gui]

2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Every day I almost pity those that get asked if they need any zucchini. They freeze well, so I will use them in the winter for baking I hope. 

Zucchini bread is a good way to use them. I roast zucchini strips with salt and pepper, paprika, olive oil and Parmesan cheese.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

8 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Indeed. Note the mainstream triumph of this incredibly foul production.

Making the Church of Jesus Christ the object of it enhances the thrill for some, I fear -- akin to using a crucifix for object rape.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Zucchini bread is a good way to use them. I roast zucchini strips with salt and pepper, paprika, olive oil and Parmesan cheese.

 

I'm afraid I've grown tired of zucchini bread. But I found a recipe online for a velvety soup made with pureed zucchini. My wife made it, and it was delicious. Great comfort food. And the recipe doesn't even call for cream.

[Bernard Gui]

5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Making the Church of Jesus Christ the object of it enhances the thrill for some, I fear -- akin to using a crucifix for object rape.

Well, according to some we deserve the abuse. Submerging a zucchini in a jar of urine as a work of "art" wouldn't draw much attention.

Edited August 11, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I'm afraid I've grown tired of zucchini bread. But I found a recipe online for a velvety soup made with pureed zucchini. My wife made it, and it was delicious. Great comfort food. And the recipe doesn't even call for cream.

I'll look for it. Gotta find more ways to use my bumper crop....from one plant!

Edited August 11, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Scott Lloyd]

33 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Mine are growing as we speak. One plant can feed an entire city.

Hey Bernard, have you had any luck with crookneck squash?

I planted one hill of it the same time I planted two hills of zucchini. All the zucchini plants sprang up and are doing very well now, even though I didn't thin them and even though I planted them late in the season. The crookneck, by contrast, had only one out of six seeds sprout, and it was much slower than the zucchini. And it hasn't started producing yet.

Edited August 11, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[Tacenda]

3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I'm afraid I've grown tired of zucchini bread. But I found a recipe online for a velvety soup made with pureed zucchini. My wife made it, and it was delicious. Great comfort food. And the recipe doesn't even call for cream.

Sounds wonderful, and I wouldn't need to turn on a hot oven in our record summer heat in Utah. If you want could you post in the "Tasty Food Recipes" in Social Hall? 

[Scott Lloyd]

11 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Sounds wonderful, and I wouldn't need to turn on a hot oven in our record summer heat in Utah. If you want could you post in the "Tasty Food Recipes" in Social Hall? 

I'll just do it here:

http://www.foodandwine.com/recipes/silky-zucchini-soup

We didn't make it with the julienne zucchini strip garnish, although I'm sure that makes it look prettier.

Edited August 11, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[USU78]

23 minutes ago, pogi said:

People are not revenge-viewing as you pretend.

Let's not discard this so quickly.  It appears the poster is admitting to a phenomenon which, if accurately described, would be more highly troubling than an initial glance would justify.

IF people are watching this precisely because they hate Mormons and/or the Church for whatever personal reason motivates them (the poster's reason being Prop 8, etc), then the existence of this play and its continued popularity would be best evidence of more widespread and more virulent bigotry than we suspected.

From what I see on Facebook, it would no surprise me in the slightest.  I had dumped onto my feed last week a whole lot of obscene and rage-filled posts and comments triggered (allegedly) by the lack of an adequate liquor license at SLC's Eccles Theatre preventing intended intoxicated viewership from enjoying the experience.  "F***** Mormons!" was the typical comment.

[gopher]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Perhaps it's generational. Being a fogey of the old school, I grew up in an environment where the shock words were those that fall from the mouths of babies in Disney movies today. I cannot see the brilliance in writing that depends on cascades of foul words and images. One of the lies told about BOMTM is that it follows in the traditions and footsteps of the great old musicals. Well, no, it does not. The script, plot, and music are mediocre. The gross obscenities sell the show. Period. They got their awards the cheap and easy way. This is notable given the juxtaposition of their extreme profanity with a religion that eschews even the mildest swearing to the point that it's members make up their own swear words like flip, flippen, scrud, oh my heck, and snap. Apparently modern audiences and critics confuse titillation with entertainment. Perhaps as the culture becomes coarser, they unknowingly expect less. We certainly are getting less.

You are probably correct.  I understand that some are attracted to the vulgarity and the shock value of the play.  I had hoped the blasphemy and other mocking of sacred LDS beliefs in the play would be a deterrent to seeing it, especially to those who are appalled when it is done to other religions or groups.

But I don't know what members should do about it.  I thought about getting a group of angry members together to go riot and vandalize my town and then place all the blame on the play, but I got back too late from hometeaching and had to scrap the idea  

[Scott Lloyd]

3 minutes ago, gopher said:

You are probably correct.  I understand that some are attracted to the vulgarity and the shock value of the play.  I had hoped the blasphemy and other mocking of sacred LDS beliefs in the play would be a deterrent to seeing it, especially to those who are appalled when it is done to other religions or groups.

But I don't know what members should do about it.  I thought about getting a group of angry members together to go riot and vandalize my town and then place all the blame on the play, but I got back too late from hometeaching and had to scrap the idea  

Heh. You could hire some of the snowflakes at UC Berkeley as consultants -- but then, they would probably be some of the ones most in favor of the play.

I'm afraid the strongest thing we can reasonably do is vote with our wallets and feet and stay away from it. Alas, even that seems too difficult for some of our own people to do.

[Kenngo1969]

19 hours ago, california boy said:

Interesting perspective.  But I think you would agree that we live in a society where everyone is allowed to say whatever they want about whoever or whatever they want.  ...

Hmmm.  No laws against raising a false alarm of "Fire!" in a crowded theater or otherwise causing a false panic?  No laws against libel or slander?  No laws against false light?  Huh.  Who knew?  Color me surprised.  

Edited August 11, 2017 by Kenngo1969

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I agree. It is a lazy way to write. It seems however, that writers and viewers cannot get satiated with certain "naughty" shock words. What used to be the uncommon is now demanded. 

I have never gotten why some feel that vulgarities are "edgy", pushing the envelope.  There are plenty of people who speak that way, treat others that way, in plenty of places in our society and societies around the world and many of those who are forced to live in such environments would love to get out.  The educated, well off indulging in it for entertainment comes across as "slumming" to me.

I have noticed that many dramas that have limited vulgarity (in order to pass the censors for a more general audience, I suspect) are having the refined, but powerful women be the ones resorting to vulgarity.  The other typical users are lower class thugs.

It is strange to me that writers make a connection that those in power or desiring power think one of the ways to achieve it is to emulate those who usually have little power themselves and often less developed intelligence and only achieve destructive violence.  Would someone moving up in the world continue to get cheap haircuts, wear worn out, cheap clothing of little taste, drive junker cars or would they be putting aside these things for those of better quality? (Not suggesting ostentatiousness, but refinement)

Edited August 11, 2017 by Calm

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Hey Bernard, have you had any luck with crookneck squash?

I planted one hill of it the same time I planted two hills of zucchini. All the zucchini plants sprang up and are doing very well now, even though I didn't thin them and even though I planted them late in the season. The crookneck, by contrast, had only one out of six seeds sprout, and it was much slower than the zucchini. And it hasn't started producing yet.

Never tried other types of squash. IIRC, one year I planted zucchini and cucumbers close to each other and the next year got some unusual hybrids.