BoM The Musical in SLC

[california boy]

35 minutes ago, pogi said:

And this:

You see, this duo have long been fascinated with Mormons and long mocked their beliefs in cartoons, movies (long before prop 8 ) and now a play.  This had nothing to do with gay marriage....absolutely nothing! 

 

This interview was after Prop 8.  

[pogi]

9 minutes ago, california boy said:

This interview was after Prop 8.  

Yes I know that, but the South Park episode (2003) and movie about a returned missionary porn star hero (Orgazmo; 1997) was before prop 8.  You see, they have been disgracing our sacred beliefs and making satirical stories about Mormon missionaries for a very long time.  

Edited August 8, 2017 by pogi

[california boy]

26 minutes ago, pogi said:

Yes I know that, but the South Park episode (2003) and movie about a returned missionary porn star hero (Orgazmo; 1997) was before prop 8.  You see, they have been disgracing our sacred beliefs and making satirical stories about Mormon missionaries for a very long time.  

I take it you never watch South Park.  They poke fun of everyone, every political figure, every religion, every pop star. You name it. I don't watch it, but I have seen enough to know they don't just target Mormons.  

That is a different subject than the musical we have been discussing

Edited August 8, 2017 by california boy

[Bernard Gui]

12 hours ago, JulieM said:

Maybe members should follow the example of their leaders regarding the play:

"As Michael Otterson, former Mormon church public affairs director, put it in a column on the church’s news outlet: 'If we Mormons really do follow Jesus Christ in our lives and look to him as an example, then it’s hard for us to ignore the injunction to turn the other cheek,'" 

Here's an article from a few days ago, praising the church's reaction;

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5984e33ae4b08b75dcc6f7cc

Indeed. But as I said, it does mean having to be someone's punching bag. I do not believe speaking out against things that denigrate the Church and God violates the Savior's teachings.

As a bishop, I received a copy of Gilbert Scharff's The Truth About the Godmakers free from the Church in its efforts to counter the negative effects of Ed Decker's world-wide movement to mock and spread lies about the Church.

The Church and its members have a long history of defending against such attacks. For example, the ongoing work of FAIR and the Maxwell Institute. When Richard Abanes published his awful screed  One Nation Under Gods, members of  this discussion board rightfully took his work to task. There was nothing vengefully cheeky about it. 

This discussion group frequently takes on critics, persecutors, and  naysayers, both Mormon and non-Mormon....especially when they cross the lines of decency.

There is an important distinction between defending the faith and seeking to harm, injure, censor, get revenge, or pay retribution. 

Edited August 9, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

I take it you never watch South Park.  They poke fun of everyone, every political figure, every religion, every pop star. You name it. I don't watch it, but I have seen enough to know they don't just target Mormons.  

That is a different subject than the musical we have been discussing

They have a long history of obscenely targeting Mormons and not just on South Park.

[pogi]

2 hours ago, california boy said:

I take it you never watch South Park.  They poke fun of everyone, every political figure, every religion, every pop star. You name it. I don't watch it, but I have seen enough to know they don't just target Mormons.  

That is a different subject than the musical we have been discussing

Can you please point out to me where there is any hint of a retribution inspired play due to prop 8?  Feel free use any reference you please.

Quote

 

On producer Scott Rudin’s advice, Parker and Stone went to see the writer-composer’s Tony-winning Avenue Q, then took him for a drink.

“Bobby said, ‘I want to do something about Joseph Smith,’ ” recalls Stone, the younger and more extroverted of the South Park duo, referrring to the founder of the Mormon religion. “And we were like: ‘Wait! We want to do something about Joseph Smith!’ [Totally arbitrary]

Growing up in Colorado, next door to Utah, Parker and Stone had long been familiar with the Mormon church and its members; Parker even dated a Mormon girl and was badly hurt when she ditched him.

They had first thought of a fictionalized Smith while working on an aborted Fox TV series about historical characters. Now, with Lopez, they started bandying about more concrete ideas — though they weren’t sure if their work would lead to a play or a film or something else altogether — only to realize Smith didn’t provide a strong enough hook.

“Within a few days, we were like, ‘Nah!’ ” Parker says. “We pretty quickly got to a modern story.”

This new version revolved around two young men who would go into the world on behalf of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a missionary task that’s obligatory for all Mormons. Precisely who they would be and where they would go remained undetermined.

 

Quote

 

"I don't think anybody would want to see a two-hour-long Mormon-bashing, and we wouldn't want to see that either," Parker tells Fresh Air's Terry Gross. "We love the goofiness of Mormon stories. Some of them are incredulous, and we loved almost all the Mormons that we had ever met. So this was sort of this conundrum that we like to talk about — we think what they believe is really, really ridiculous, and yet they seem like pretty happy people."

Parker: I’ve been fascinated with the Mormons for a long time. They are the nicest people in the world. If a religion’s going to take over the world, and the one that really believes “just be super nice to everyone” takes over, that’s all right with me.

reason magazine: I have Mormon friends who are convinced you guys were raised Mormon, because of some of the references in the show.

Parker: Well, we grew up in Colorado. Colorado’s right next to Utah–you know, Mormon Central. My first girlfriend was Mormon, and I went to experience family home evening at her house for the first time. “What are you all doing?” “We’re sitting, and we’re singing songs and playing games together.” I was like, “Boy, that’s f****d up. Families are not supposed to be doing that.”

Yet South Park's treatment of religion, like its treatment of politics, is never simplistic, stupid, or uninformed. Indeed, Matt and Trey's 1997 movie Orgazmo, which centers around a young Mormon missionary who ends up taking on the role of a superhero porn star, clearly reflects not only a great deal of knowledge of the Latter-day Saints but some real affection for the group. 

 

Apparently it is inspired by their "long time" fascination (as in pre-prop 8 ) with the "goofy", "incredulous", and "really ridiculous" Mormon stories and beliefs.  As far as the Mormon people go, there is no sense of retaliation whatsoever for our stance on prop 8.  In fact, they call us "the nicest people in the world".  Not something you would expect to hear from someone retaliating for prop 8, is it?

This isn't their first missionary satire either, they made a movie pre-prop 8 about a Mormon missionary turned porn-star. 

I think you are projecting your own bias onto other peoples motives, as your theory of retaliation has no foundation whatsoever.  At first you were arguing that we were blind for not acknowledging the warmth and sympathy towards Mormonism in the play, and now now you are arguing that the play was written as a weapon of retaliation.  It is starting to feel like you are arguing just for the sake of arguing, hoping that something will stick.  

[Daniel2]

21 hours ago, california boy said:

You know, it is not like the Mormon church respects the beliefs and lifestyle choices other groups choose to make.  They thought it was their personal duty to make the decision of whether others should be allowed to marry or not..  Where was the respect for other peoples beliefs then?  Yet  you and others are all offended if people don't respect your beliefs and choices you have made.  

Quoted for truth.  Brilliantly said, CB. 

I'm amazed that there is such offense as a play like this, which doesn't directly affect Mormons' ability to continue to live as they choose, as contrasted with feeling entirely justified in supporting the LDS church's proactive attempts at removing and prohibiting same-sex couples' civil rights to civil marriage, among other things, let alone the church's fight against the ERA.  One person's "morally-righteousness responsibility" certainly seems to be another's "moral blasphemy," and vice versa.

[Daniel2]

22 hours ago, pogi said:

Being more of a libertarian, I have always disagreed with the church's stance on SSM.  Yes, I do respect other peoples beliefs and agency, even if I disagree - but even for me, there are limits.  I don't respect public mockery of other peoples sacred beliefs, for one.  You can choose to believe it or not, but I would be just as outraged at a dark, satirical, and patronizing play that publicly mocked gay people and gay marriage.  Yet when the South Park boys trample on my sacred beliefs, society gives them critical acclaim and accolades.  That is messed up!  "But they did it in such a sweet way!"

You are right, the church does have much bigger problems.  This play is simply a reflection of society - it has lost all manners, taste, respect, while embracing mockery of God and religion, and the filthy tongue that disgraces our sensibilities.  Society rightly would not tolerate the same treatment of Muslims and gays - why do we not deserve the same respect from society?  Is it because of the church's stance on gay marriage?  We deserve it?  Last I checked, Muslims are not keen on the idea of homosexuality either, yet for some reason, they deserve protection and respect...so that can't be the explanation.  Hmmm, I just can't explain it!  It is as if society thinks it is OK to disgrace us so long as we don't put up a big fight like gays and Muslims surely would have.  Maybe it is because we don't demand respect?

I am not asking for people to respect my beliefs.  What I am asking for is that people respect civility and the delicate treatment of sacred beliefs, and stand in defense of Muslims, gays, and, yes, even us cute, silly little Mormons alike.  

Sorry, I don't buy this alleged "double standard" line of thinking that society is somehow allowing satire against Mormons, but that it would "never" allow satire against gays, Muslims, etc.  Anyone who thinks that claim is true--that somehow Mormons are being unfairly singled out--simply is demonstrating their ignorance of the type of satire that exists out in the world.   Don't get me wrong--I don't blame those who are unaware of such satire for being ignorant of it--after all, their values compel them to avoid any such 'entertainments.'  The only reason Mormons are so aware of this particular satire is because it's about them, so of course they've paid more attention to it-----but it's a mistake to presume that simply because you're more aware of this one, that you're the only ones being satirized.  Of course, Christian's tendency to presume, magnify, and to some degree, adopt a martyr's complex at any suggestion that they've been singled out for persecution plays alongside the Biblical passage suggesting that they would be persecuted for the name of Christ, and I think there's a tendency to even feel validated, to a degree, by seeing the world from that view-point.

Regarding the fact that it ISN'T "just" Mormons/Christians who are satirically-lampooned:

This past weekend, we attended our fourth showing of an elaborate variety-circus show in Las Vegas called "Absinthe," an acrobatic, comical, raunchy, satirical "Cirque du Soleil"-type show which has ran for several years outside of Caesar's Palace.  Believe it or not, the circus-type-show's ringleader is FAR more offensive than anything in "The Book of Mormon: The Musical."  And I say that having seen BOM:TM twice (going a third time this weekend), and being able to sing it's lyrics by heart.  As ranchy and 'out-there' as BOM:TM is, "Absinthe" goes even further, satirically and graphically mocking and making fun of EVERYONE in the audience--from, yes, 'the gays,' to Muslims, to the disabled, to Asians, to Black people, to immigrants, to Republicans (AND Democrats), to Catholics, to just about everyone and anything you could even imagine--------and then some.  And it's outrageously hilarious.  As a gay man, am I offended by what he says about gay couples?  I certainly could be--but we've found it's one of the most funny shows we've ever seen, and each group of people I've attended the show with have laughed hysterically.

Would I EVER recommend active LDS members see it?  Heck to the NO.  Literally, none that I know would make it past the opening announcement welcoming everyone to the show, where right up front they demonstrate the type of language and crude humor everyone can expect to see.  Would it ever play well in Utah?  Highly unlikely... it's irreverent and blasphemous and crude and satirical. 

Do I bring this play up because I expect Mormons to respect and/or embrace the type of entertainment it offers?  Heck no!  I'm not naïve enough to suggest Mormons will EVER accept, condone, or subject themselves to the type of satire these forms of entertainment present--rather the opposite, I expect it would make Mormons ill.

The ONLY reason I bring it up is in the attempt to dispel any delusions that popular culture always and only "singles out us Mormons, but they'd never treat XXXX minority this way!!!"  "They" can, and "they" do, so don't delude yourself into thinking that satire singles out you for some reason, or that people only think it's funny when it's not about them, or that those of us who can find humor in satire--even about ourselves--are somehow being hypocrites. 

My two cents, even thought I fully recognize that what I've said will be valued far less than that to some here.  

Daniel

Edited to add:  BTW, a quick review of the "Criticisms & Protests, Vulgarity & Depictions of Racism, and other Parodies" sections of the  Wikipedia site shows how South Park's creators HAVE lampooned Islam and Muslims ('South Park' Mohammed issue sparks debate among Muslims'), as well as gays (see "Gay Advocacy Group Objects to ‘South Park’ Episode") and even transgender celebrities ("Why 'South Park's' depiction of Caitlyn Jenner was one of the show's most despicable moments"), along with a variety of a lot of other ethnicities, races, religions, etc.

Edited August 9, 2017 by Daniel2

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Daniel2 said:

Would I EVER recommend active LDS members see it?  Heck to the NO.  Literally, none that I know would make it past the opening announcement welcoming everyone to the show, where right up front they demonstrate the type of language and crude humor everyone can expect to see.  Would it ever play well in Utah?  Highly unlikely... it's irreverent and blasphemous and crude and satirical.

But it is playing to sold out houses in SLC once again. 

 

[Daniel2]

21 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

But it is playing to sold out houses in SLC once again. 

 

The portion of my post you quoted is in reference to "Absinthe," which plays in Las Vegas, not SLC.  That particular show has been open on a weekly basis (double performances Wed-Sun) there for 6 years.  I don't think that particular show would have the same type of longevity given that UT audiences, visitors, and locals are very different than the population and visitors in Vegas.  BOM:TM is, IMO, understandably successful in UT as a limited engagement in SL.

And despite the fact that I would never recommend BOM:TM to conservative, devout LDS members who avoid anything which is PG-13, R, X, and XXX-rated (and despite the fact that I have continually openly said to LDS family members and friends that I don't recommend they see it), the fact that it is playing to sold out houses in SLC doesn't bother me.  I don't police the entertainment choices of other adults, regardless of their personal beliefs, and if any devout Latter-day Saints choose to see it despite my recommendation they avoid it--well, that's their choice, not mine, and I certainly respect their agency to see it if they so choose.  Even so, in SLC and across UT, there are plenty of non-Mormons, former-Mormons, Jack Mormons, lapsed Mormons, liberal Mormons who would likely enjoy the show.  So, I'm not sure what your point is when you say, "But it is playing to sold out houses in SLC once again."  Can you explain what you mean...?

Edited August 9, 2017 by Daniel2

[Bernard Gui]

Considering the over-the-top obscenities in the script and songs, in which of the following situations would they be acceptable?

What would happen if a person spoke like this in one of these situations?

1. A school classroom

2. A workplace

3. A family gathering

4. A neighborhood block party

5. Workplace training seminar

6. A robocall for a product or political candidate

7. A conversation with a friend or co-worker

8. A marriage proposal

9. A conversation on a first date

10. With a police officer on being pulled over for speeding

11. In a job interview

12. A restaurant

13. Walmart

etc.

Yet if it's in a Broadway play, we pay big money for it, sit through it and applaud it, defend it, praise it, and give it awards. 

Does not compute! Does not compute!

Edited August 9, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

1 minute ago, Daniel2 said:

The portion of my post you quoted is in reference to "Absinthe," which plays in Las Vegas, not SLC.

Ah...I see now. Thanks for the clarification.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Daniel2 said:

Edited to add:  BTW, a quick review of the "Criticisms & Protests, Vulgarity & Depictions of Racism, and other Parodies" sections of the  Wikipedia site shows how South Park's creators HAVE lampooned Islam and Muslims, as well as gays (see "Gay Advocacy Group Objects to ‘South Park’ Episode") and even transgender celebrities ("Why 'South Park's' depiction of Caitlyn Jenner was one of the show's most despicable moments"), along with a variety of a lot of other ethnicities, races, religions, etc.

Perhaps that says more about South Park's creators than the victims of their mockery.

[Daniel2]

29 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Perhaps that says more about South Park's creators than the victims of their mockery.

We're all entitled to our own opinions and fully free to choose to support the type of entertainment upon which to spend our time and energy.

I think the creators of South Park speak for themselves on the above point, and, from what I've read, they're fully aware of their critics' feelings about their show and your comment probably wouldn't bother them one iota.  But you're free to continue promoting that view, just as they are free to promote their show. 

Others clearly see something valuable within social/political/religious satire that you don't (see, for example: In Defense of South Park )--which is entirely OK that you choose not to agree with them--that's perfectly understandable and acceptable. No one's suggesting you have to.

Edited August 9, 2017 by Daniel2

[Daniel2]

29 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Considering the over-the-top obscenities in the script and songs, in which of the following situations would they be acceptable?

What would happen if a person spoke like this in one of these situations?

1. A school classroom

2. A workplace

3. A family gathering

4. A neighborhood block party

5. Workplace training seminar

6. A robocall for a product or political candidate

7. A conversation with a friend or co-worker

8. A marriage proposal

9. A conversation on a first date

10. With a police officer on being pulled over for speeding

11. In a job interview

12. A restaurant

13. Walmart

etc.

Yet if it's in a Broadway play, we sit through it and applaud it, defend it, praise it, pay for it, and give it awards. 

Does not compute! Does not compute!

Your comments above are a Straw Man Arguement.  Those of us who can appreciate the satire of BOM:TM within the confines of a theater aimed at adults aren't arguing that it's appropriate to use such language in every of the scenarios you listed.  After all...

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;

A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;

A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;

A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;

A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;

A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

Edited August 9, 2017 by Daniel2

[pogi]

2 hours ago, Daniel2 said:

Sorry, I don't buy this alleged "double standard" line of thinking that society is somehow allowing satire against Mormons, but that it would "never" allow satire against gays, Muslims, etc.  Anyone who thinks that claim is true--that somehow Mormons are being unfairly singled out--simply is demonstrating their ignorance of the type of satire that exists out in the world.   Don't get me wrong--I don't blame those who are unaware of such satire for being ignorant of it--after all, their values compel them to avoid any such 'entertainments.'  The only reason Mormons are so aware of this particular satire is because it's about them, so of course they've paid more attention to it-----but it's a mistake to presume that simply because you're more aware of this one, that you're the only ones being satirized.  Of course, Christian's tendency to presume, magnify, and to some degree, adopt a martyr's complex at any suggestion that they've been singled out for persecution plays alongside the Biblical passage suggesting that they would be persecuted for the name of Christ, and I think there's a tendency to even feel validated, to a degree, by seeing the world from that view-point.

Regarding the fact that it ISN'T "just" Mormons/Christians who are satirically-lampooned:

This past weekend, we attended our fourth showing of an elaborate variety-circus show in Las Vegas called "Absinthe," an acrobatic, comical, raunchy, satirical "Cirque du Soleil"-type show which has ran for several years outside of Caesar's Palace.  Believe it or not, the circus-type-show's ringleader is FAR more offensive than anything in "The Book of Mormon: The Musical."  And I say that having seen BOM:TM twice (going a third time this weekend), and being able to sing it's lyrics by heart.  As ranchy and 'out-there' as BOM:TM is, "Absinthe" goes even further, satirically and graphically mocking and making fun of EVERYONE in the audience--from, yes, 'the gays,' to Muslims, to the disabled, to Asians, to Black people, to immigrants, to Republicans (AND Democrats), to Catholics, to just about everyone and anything you could even imagine--------and then some.  And it's outrageously hilarious.  As a gay man, am I offended by what he says about gay couples?  I certainly could be--but we've found it's one of the most funny shows we've ever seen, and each group of people I've attended the show with have laughed hysterically.

Would I EVER recommend active LDS members see it?  Heck to the NO.  Literally, none that I know would make it past the opening announcement welcoming everyone to the show, where right up front they demonstrate the type of language and crude humor everyone can expect to see.  Would it ever play well in Utah?  Highly unlikely... it's irreverent and blasphemous and crude and satirical. 

Do I bring this play up because I expect Mormons to respect and/or embrace the type of entertainment it offers?  Heck no!  I'm not naïve enough to suggest Mormons will EVER accept, condone, or subject themselves to the type of satire these forms of entertainment present--rather the opposite, I expect it would make Mormons ill.

The ONLY reason I bring it up is in the attempt to dispel any delusions that popular culture always and only "singles out us Mormons, but they'd never treat XXXX minority this way!!!"  "They" can, and "they" do, so don't delude yourself into thinking that satire singles out you for some reason, or that people only think it's funny when it's not about them, or that those of us who can find humor in satire--even about ourselves--are somehow being hypocrites. 

My two cents, even thought I fully recognize that what I've said will be valued far less than that to some here.  

Daniel

Edited to add:  BTW, a quick review of the "Criticisms & Protests, Vulgarity & Depictions of Racism, and other Parodies" sections of the  Wikipedia site shows how South Park's creators HAVE lampooned Islam and Muslims ('South Park' Mohammed issue sparks debate among Muslims'), as well as gays (see "Gay Advocacy Group Objects to ‘South Park’ Episode") and even transgender celebrities ("Why 'South Park's' depiction of Caitlyn Jenner was one of the show's most despicable moments"), along with a variety of a lot of other ethnicities, races, religions, etc.

Satire on popular stereotypes is one thing (I actually read that they roasted about every group but Muslims in Absinthe), but to single out one group with such crass disregard for our deity and sacred beliefs is another.  Do you think a play that singled out Muslims, with the lyrics "F*** Allah right back in the c***" would have received 9 Tony Awards, 1 Grammy Award, with the "highest-charting Broadway cast album in over 4 decades"?

i understand that we are not the only group that is a target of satire, but I have never heard of such loathsome satire on such a sacred topic for a religion receive such critical acclaim, with so little complaint.  Have you?

Edited August 9, 2017 by pogi

[Daniel2]

17 minutes ago, pogi said:

Satire on popular stereotypes is one thing (I actually read that they roasted about every group but Muslims in Absinthe), but to single out one group with such crass disregard for our deity and sacred beliefs is another.  Do you think a play that singled out Muslims, with the lyrics "F*** Allah right back in the c***" would have received 9 Tony Awards, 1 Grammy Award, with the "highest-charting Broadway cast album in over 4 decades"?

i understand that we are not the only group that is a target of satire, but I have never heard of such loathsome satire on such a sacred topic for a religion receive such critical acclaim, with so little complaint.  Have you?

I don't believe we'll ever know whether or not a play that singled out Muslims and Islamic beliefs would have received the awards and accolades that BOM:TM has... but honestly, I'm not sure why or how that's significant, in your mind.

South Park's creators are on record expressing dismay when censors refused to show their depictions of Mohammed on TV.

That being said, they also expressed understanding for their network's decision to do so, out of fear of retribution by radical Islamic terrorists.

I think it's clear to most that modern Mormons don't have a history of violent retaliation on the grounds of blasphemy, and I think that is certainly a factor that may have played into Stone and Parker's choice to center their play around Mormonism.

Other factors also played into their decision to choose the LDS Faith, as has been pointed out in the other articles in this thread quoting the creators about their creative choices and motivations.

Yes, the LDS Church's response to the satire has been admirably restrained, and also understandably restrained.  For that, they are to be commended.  That being said, their response by most is also viewed to be the most intelligent response; by taking the high road, they avoided causing even more undesirable attention to the play, which controversy tends to breed.

Am I aware of any other religiously-based satire to have met with such little complaint...?  Well, Catholics have been around for far longer than Mormons and have endured a far greater quantity of religious ridicule and satire (ranging from nuns having abortions to pop stars mocking them in music videos to mocking medieval inquisitions and crusades to Monty Python skits about oral sex and nudity to jokes about violations of virtue with underage alterboys) over not just modern day, but across centuries of satirists... and since I've never been Catholic, my radar isn't focused on the Catholic church's responses throughout the ages.  However, beyond giving kudos where kudos are due (as I did in the previous paragraph, as well as in previous posts in the thread), I'm not sure I follow the merit in trying to claim superiority over other Faiths' responses in the face of perceived religious persecution, etc.  Do you mean to suggest your Faith has had to endure more than others, and should be congratulated more than others...?  Do you see some significance or increase in virtue, due to what you feel you and yours have had to endure...?  Is there a point you feel I've missed that you can help me understand better, beyond what I've shared in this response?

Edited August 9, 2017 by Daniel2

[pogi]

6 minutes ago, Daniel2 said:

I don't believe we'll ever know whether or not a play that singled out Muslims and Islamic beliefs would have received the awards and accolades that BOM:TM has... but honestly, I'm not sure why or how that's significant, in your mind.

South Park's creators are on record expressing dismay when censors refused to show their depictions of Mohammed on TV.

That being said, they also expressed understanding for their network's decision to do so, out of fear of retribution by radical Islamic terrorists.

I think it's clear to most that modern Mormons don't have a history of violent retaliation on the grounds of blasphemy, and I think that is certainly a factor that may have played into Stone and Parker's choice to center their play around Mormonism.

Other factors also played into their decision to choose the LDS Faith, as has been pointed out in the other articles in this thread quoting the creators about their creative choices and motivations.

Yes, the LDS Church's response to the satire has been admirably restrained, and also understandably restrained.  For that, they are to be commended.  That being said, their response by most is also viewed to be the most intelligent response; by taking the high road, they avoided causing even more undesirable attention to the play, which controversy tends to breed.

Am I aware of any other religiously-based satire to have met with such little complaint...?  Well, Catholics have been around for far longer than Mormons and have endured a far greater quantity of religious ridicule and satire (ranging from nuns having abortions to pop stars mocking them in music videos to mocking medieval inquisitions and crusades to Monty Python skits about oral sex and nudity to jokes about violations of virtue with underage alterboys) over not just modern day, but across centuries of satirists... and since I've never been Catholic, my radar isn't focused on the Catholic church's responses throughout the ages.  However, beyond giving kudos where kudos are due (as I did in the previous paragraph, as well as in previous posts in the thread), I'm not sure I follow the merit in trying to claim superiority over other Faiths' responses in the face of perceived religious persecution, etc.  Do you mean to suggest your Faith has had to endure more than others, and should be congratulated more than others...?  Do you see some significance or increase in virtue, due to what you feel you and yours have had to endure...?  Is there a point you feel I've missed that you can help me understand better, beyond what I've shared in this response?

My main point is that targeting the sacred beliefs of others through satire is wrong I wish it wasn't so praised in society.  I respect the authors right to free speech, but I don't respect their use of it, and it saddens me that anyone would give acclaim and accolades for such distasteful use of free speech.  As I have said previously, I don't care if it is Mormons, Catholics, Muslims, Jews, etc being targeted. 

By pointing out that Muslims and gays are more protected, I am only pointing out a pet peeve that I have when people think they are righteous for protecting Muslims while laughing at the mocking of Mormons.  I am only repeating the sentiment expressed by Bret Stephens of The Wall Street Journal:

"So let's get this straight: In the consensus view of modern American liberalism, it is hilarious to mock Mormons and Mormonism but outrageous to mock Muslims and Islam," he wrote. "Why?”

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Daniel2 said:

We're all entitled to our own opinions and fully free to choose to support the type of entertainment upon which to spend our time and energy.

I think the creators of South Park speak for themselves on the above point, and, from what I've read, they're fully aware of their critics' feelings about their show and your comment probably wouldn't bother them one iota.  But you're free to continue promoting that view, just as they are free to promote their show. 

Others clearly see something valuable within social/political/religious satire that you don't (see, for example: In Defense of South Park )--which is entirely OK that you choose not to agree with them--that's perfectly understandable and acceptable. No one's suggesting you have to.

I really don't care what they think of my opinion.

On the other hand, they are playing a major part in the coarsening of our culture, vocabulary, and entertainment. That is sad.

In this sense---that they are contributing to the destruction of our society---they merit scrutiny.

 

Edited August 9, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

My main point is that targeting the sacred beliefs of others through satire is wrong I wish it wasn't so praised in society.  I respect the authors right to free speech, but I don't respect their use of it, and it saddens me that anyone would give acclaim and accolades for such distasteful use of free speech.  As I have said previously, I don't care if it is Mormons, Catholics, Muslims, Jews, etc being targeted. 

By pointing out that Muslims and gays are more protected, I am only pointing out a pet peeve that I have when people think they are righteous for protecting Muslims while laughing at the mocking of Mormons.  I am only repeating the sentiment expressed by Bret Stephens of The Wall Street Journal:

"So let's get this straight: In the consensus view of modern American liberalism, it is hilarious to mock Mormons and Mormonism but outrageous to mock Muslims and Islam," he wrote. "Why?”

While part of me is sympathetic to this view would this mean no mockery of Scientology? How far does this go?

[Daniel2]

35 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I really don't care what they think of my opinion.

On the other hand, they are playing a major part in the coarsening of our culture, vocabulary, and entertainment. That is sad.

In this sense---that they are contributing to the destruction of our society---they merit scrutiny.

 

As I said before: I imagine they don't care what you think of their play, either.

One man's trash is another man's treasure... 

One person's "coarseness" is viewed by others to be insightful humor (satire) adding to the richness of art's texture and color...

One religion's view of the "destruction of society" is another classification of people's "strengthening of our families through civil marriage"...

The metaphor could certainly apply to a broad variety of issues.

At least I imagine we'd likely all agree on one thing--there's often merit in scrutiny (whether it be in discussing the merits of a play, or the beliefs, culture, motives, and actions of a church).

 

Edited August 9, 2017 by Daniel2

[california boy]

4 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Considering the over-the-top obscenities in the script and songs, in which of the following situations would they be acceptable?

What would happen if a person spoke like this in one of these situations?

1. A school classroom

2. A workplace

3. A family gathering

4. A neighborhood block party

5. Workplace training seminar

6. A robocall for a product or political candidate

7. A conversation with a friend or co-worker

8. A marriage proposal

9. A conversation on a first date

10. With a police officer on being pulled over for speeding

11. In a job interview

12. A restaurant

13. Walmart

etc.

Yet if it's in a Broadway play, we pay big money for it, sit through it and applaud it, defend it, praise it, and give it awards. 

Does not compute! Does not compute!

For someone who has set himself up as an authority on theater, have you really never heard of Burlesque?  

Your post is completely irrelevant.  A play that you pay a couple of hundred dollars to go to knowing something about the reputation of the play, but still look forward to attending is not like

1. A school classroom

2. A workplace

3. A family gathering

4. A neighborhood block party

5. Workplace training seminar

6. A robocall for a product or political candidate

7. A conversation with a friend or co-worker

8. A marriage proposal

9. A conversation on a first date

10. With a police officer on being pulled over for speeding

11. In a job interview

12. A restaurant

13. Walmart

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, california boy said:

For someone who has set himself up as an authority on theater, have you really never heard of Burlesque?  

Your post is completely irrelevant.  A play that you pay a couple of hundred dollars to go to knowing something about the reputation of the play, but still look forward to attending is not like

1. A school classroom

2. A workplace

3. A family gathering

4. A neighborhood block party

5. Workplace training seminar

6. A robocall for a product or political candidate

7. A conversation with a friend or co-worker

8. A marriage proposal

9. A conversation on a first date

10. With a police officer on being pulled over for speeding

11. In a job interview

12. A restaurant

13. Walmart

I said earlier that I was no great authority on musical theater, but I have extensive experience from which I form my opinions.

i don't know if it would be possible to miss the point more completely.

Edited August 10, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

10 hours ago, Daniel2 said:

One man's trash is another man's treasure...

Indeed. They are making a lot of treasure from this trash.

[Kenngo1969]

5 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Indeed. They are making a lot of treasure from this trash.

Actually, the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ is the treasure.  They can lampoon it, they can parody it, they can caricature it, they can ridicule it all they like, but, try as they might, they'll never be able to make trash out of that.  (See Matthew 13:45-46).